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Old
07-26-2012, 04:24 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by jax00 View Post
And I thought I was pessimistic about this upcoming season...
Philly fans have a lot of practice.

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Old
07-26-2012, 04:24 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by jax00 View Post
And I thought I was pessimistic about this upcoming season...
I'm just saying, I know you had coaching problems in the beginning and were absolutely horrible, but I just don't see the depth to make a run. Other than 4 players, other teams really do not have to fear your lineup. I could be wrong(I have been many of times), I just don't think they have a playoff roster. If they lock Perry and Getzlaf up, Fowler returns to form, and Sbisa become a top 4 defender, then I think you have a chance. I just feel like it might be 2-3 years away, not this year. Hiller also needs to play out of this world again, which he is certainly capable of doing.

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07-26-2012, 04:37 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Im going to say it, Anaheim Duck fans are delusional.

They are still some ways off I feel from being a Stanley Cup contender.
What the hell that has to do with anything? We are delusional how exactly? I haven't seen any Ducks fan claiming that Ducks are a SC contender next season.

You don't like us because we don't like the proposals of Flyers fans? Fine, I understand that. But your post made zero sense.

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07-26-2012, 04:42 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What the hell that has to do with anything? We are delusional how exactly? I haven't seen any Ducks fan claiming that Ducks are a SC contender next season.

You don't like us because we don't like the proposals of Flyers fans? Fine, I understand that. But your post made zero sense.
Your asking price for Bobby Ryan is what makes you delusional. What you guys are asking for is not what you will receive.

What I am saying is a ton of your fans are saying that if you trade Bobby Ryan you need to get better right now. I believe it would be in your teams best interest to get some futures thrown in the deal. If you guys want to get better right now, it makes other believe you guys think your team is going to be a contender this year.

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07-26-2012, 04:58 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What the hell that has to do with anything? We are delusional how exactly? I haven't seen any Ducks fan claiming that Ducks are a SC contender next season.

You don't like us because we don't like the proposals of Flyers fans? Fine, I understand that. But your post made zero sense.
Ducks better figure out what is going on with Getzlaf and Perry before that turns into a parise and suter situation.

All this talk about finding a number 2 center when in reality you may need to find a number 1.

Right now the premium put on centers are just ridiculous and it is going to hurt to get a top 2 centerman. Look at the nash deal, Derek stepan was a deal breaker when it came to aquiring Nash......and that is derek freakin stepan.

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07-26-2012, 05:04 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I fully agree. Flyers have no reason to overpay, Ducks have no reason to give up Ryan for something that doesn't make the team better.

But to call Voracek + Meszaros + 1st spectacular overpayment for Ryan is just downright silly.
COMPARING CONTRACTS: Voracek by 0.85m and a year
4.25m over 4 years > 5.10m over 3 years

COMPARING AGE: Voracek by 3 years
22 > 25

COMPARING POTENTIAL: Ryan by 10~ points
60-65~ points < 70-75~ points

COMPARING CONSISTENCY: Ryan by 10~ points
50~ point forward < 60~ point forward

GOAL-SCORING APTITUDE: Ryan by 10-15~ goals
20~ goal forward < 30-35~ goal forward

PASSING APTITUDE: Tie
30-35 assists = 30-35 assists

HEALTH CONSISTENCY: Tie
PHYSICALITY: Ryan
DEFENSIVE PLAY: Voracek

Ryan is the better player. Voracek is the better value in his contract and age right now.

So how much is that 10-15-ish points that Ryan is better than Voracek actually worth on the open market, particularly considering their contracts?

I think the value for Ryan and Voracek is pretty close. The only reason I'd do Voracek + 1st for Ryan is to get a noted scorer on Giroux's wing. Even that, by its very nature, is not really a necessary thing. Voracek will prove to be a valuable winger for Giroux for other reasons entirely.

That said, we've established that it's very possible, even arguable, that Voracek + 1st is almost an overpayment for the limited added benefits that Ryan brings depending on where that first falls.

So how is giving up a 26-year-old (only a year older than Ryan) former Flyers "Defenseman of the Year" to Anaheim for free not considered a gross overpayment?

Hell, considering the current market, his contract is a freaking bargain.

Absolutely incredible...a free, young top-four defenseman is not considered overpayment anymore.

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07-26-2012, 05:29 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
COMPARING CONTRACTS: Voracek by 0.85m and a year
4.25m over 4 years > 5.10m over 3 years

COMPARING AGE: Voracek by 3 years
22 > 25

COMPARING POTENTIAL: Ryan by 10~ points
60-65~ points < 70-75~ points

COMPARING CONSISTENCY: Ryan by 10~ points
50~ point forward < 60~ point forward

GOAL-SCORING APTITUDE: Ryan by 10-15~ goals
20~ goal forward < 30-35~ goal forward

PASSING APTITUDE: Tie
30-35 assists = 30-35 assists

HEALTH CONSISTENCY: Tie
PHYSICALITY: Ryan
DEFENSIVE PLAY: Voracek

Ryan is the better player. Voracek is the better value in his contract and age right now.

So how much is that 10-15-ish points that Ryan is better than Voracek actually worth on the open market, particularly considering their contracts?

I think the value for Ryan and Voracek is pretty close. The only reason I'd do Voracek + 1st for Ryan is to get a noted scorer on Giroux's wing. Even that, by its very nature, is not really a necessary thing. Voracek will prove to be a valuable winger for Giroux for other reasons entirely.

That said, we've established that it's very possible, even arguable, that Voracek + 1st is almost an overpayment for the limited added benefits that Ryan brings depending on where that first falls.

So how is giving up a 26-year-old (only a year older than Ryan) former Flyers "Defenseman of the Year" to Anaheim for free not considered a gross overpayment?

Hell, considering the current market, his contract is a freaking bargain.

Absolutely incredible...a free, young top-four defenseman is not considered overpayment anymore.
Overpayment yes, spectacular probably not. But as Anaheim has no use for Mez it's a moot point. Plus Mez has few issues that diminish his value.

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07-26-2012, 05:34 PM
  #133
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I don't get why people want to deal Mez to help get a forward. Why would we make a weak position weaker to fix something that doesn't need fixing?

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07-26-2012, 05:38 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I don't get why people want to deal Mez to help get a forward. Why would we make a weak position weaker to fix something that doesn't need fixing?
Mez , after the injuries of this season has been an afterthought. But he may be our most important player next year. If he can play like he did the previous year he is our best dman.

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07-26-2012, 05:48 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Your asking price for Bobby Ryan is what makes you delusional. What you guys are asking for is not what you will receive.

What I am saying is a ton of your fans are saying that if you trade Bobby Ryan you need to get better right now. I believe it would be in your teams best interest to get some futures thrown in the deal. If you guys want to get better right now, it makes other believe you guys think your team is going to be a contender this year.
I believe they will be contenders, playoff contenders that is.

Bob Murray has repeatedly said he will not pursue a any sort of rebuild in Anaheim. You need to ice a good team every year in a market like Anaheim to keep interest, a rebuild would be a huge blow to the organization simply because the Ducks cannot afford to become irrelevant again even if it is only a few years, which is what would likely happen.

Despite what many Flyers fans believe, the Ducks are under no pressure to move Ryan. That is the main reason many of us want the return we do. There is no point in moving him unless it makes the team better now, simple as that. They'll happily hang on to him if no one wants to pony up.

And while the Ducks may not have the deepest roster around, if Getzlaf, Perry, Hiller, and Fowler all play like they are capable of playing I think they'll be fine next year.

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07-26-2012, 05:53 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Nab77 View Post
Overpayment yes, spectacular probably not. But as Anaheim has no use for Mez it's a moot point. Plus Mez has few issues that diminish his value.
Like...?

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07-26-2012, 05:59 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Like...?
Coming back from serious injury, inconsistant play throughout his career...

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07-26-2012, 06:13 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Nab77 View Post
Coming back from serious injury, inconsistant play throughout his career...
Fair enough. I thought you were going to say something about his actual play.

He's been more than consistent in Philadelphia and even was our best defenseman a couple years ago.

Surgery causes some questions, but I'm not worried.

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07-26-2012, 06:29 PM
  #139
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Mez , after the injuries of this season has been an afterthought. But he may be our most important player next year. If he can play like he did the previous year he is our best dman.
This.

Mesz is the only one of our D-Men that still had #1 potential from his early days, and shows he can play at a high level before. He has the ability to play offense, defense and brings a physical edge with size. He has putten up 40 points (very near, anyway) twice, and can bring 30+ consistently.

This is the point in his career (age 27) where he has to decide to become a #1 (upswing 5 points and start putting up 45points a year with solid O and D) or remain a middling 3/4 journeyman who suffers from inconsitencies.

Up to him to decide. At this point, the "mental" and "intelligence" of a player should match their "physical" abilities (for defensemen). If they do, we have a hell of a player. if we don't, we'll be still looking for that #1.

For our d-men:

Coburn - not enough O
Schenn - has shown the ability sporadically, but more likely sticks to a defensive dman
Mesz - Has offense, defense and physicality
Timo - Has O, D, and intelligence, but not physically intimidating
Grossman - not enough O, but defensively imposing

Let's hope Mesz turns the corner.

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07-26-2012, 07:57 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
He's been more than consistent in Philadelphia and even was our best defenseman a couple years ago.
What? Did I miss this season?

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07-26-2012, 08:09 PM
  #141
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Coburn - not enough O
I think he has the offense, but we've been keeping him in a defensive role. I think he can be a 30+ point guy yearly if put in the right position. Unfortunately we've exclusively needed him in defensive roles in recent years. Assuming he's paired with Grossmann now and since Carle's gone, I could see his offensive role growing to the point where he even gets PP time.

While Timonen slowly digresses, Coburn is improving steadily. They could flip positions for our best overall defenseman soon.

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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Schenn - has shown the ability sporadically, but more likely sticks to a defensive dman
Much like Coburn, I feel as though he's swinging into a pit that he'll eventually climb his way out of. I don't see him ever having the skating or offensive capabilities that Coburn has demonstrated already at the NHL level, but he's much more physical.

I was right about Coburn and Meszaros so we'll see if I'm right about Schenn. The Philly environment could turn him around almost completely in the next couple of years.

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Mesz - Has offense, defense and physicality
Since there is no Weber or Suter coming, we need Mesz to have a big year. He has the capabilities of a true #2 all-around defenseman. We've seen it from him before, but injury problems really hit him hard this year. What happened when he arrived in Philadelphia wasn't a fluke, but once again, Mesz needs insulation. He cannot thrive when expected to be "that" guy. He survives and excels when surrounded by consistent teammates.

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Timo - Has O, D, and intelligence, but not physically intimidating
Still our best defenseman and still top 20 in the NHL. He needs to prove though that age isn't creeping up on him too quickly.

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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Grossman - not enough O, but defensively imposing
Purely a mean, shut-down defenseman. He will help clear the porch, and having him healthy unlike in the playoffs is a big help. Same with Mesz.

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07-26-2012, 08:36 PM
  #142
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It's amazing how fast people can forget just how good Meszaros was in 2010-11. Yes, he had a down year, but he went down with a herniated disc, and was only sidelined once we acquired Grossmann/Kubina. Considering his horrible play beforehand, does anyone think it wasn't a coincidence that he went down directly after getting Grossmann?? I think he was dealing with that horrible back for quite some time, but only got the surgery when we had someone to replace him.


I think an uninjured Meszaros can play like he did in 2010-11, and that's not someone we can afford to trade, not with these defense corps.

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07-27-2012, 12:31 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think he has the offense, but we've been keeping him in a defensive role. I think he can be a 30+ point guy yearly if put in the right position. Unfortunately we've exclusively needed him in defensive roles in recent years. Assuming he's paired with Grossmann now and since Carle's gone, I could see his offensive role growing to the point where he even gets PP time.

While Timonen slowly digresses, Coburn is improving steadily. They could flip positions for our best overall defenseman soon.



Much like Coburn, I feel as though he's swinging into a pit that he'll eventually climb his way out of. I don't see him ever having the skating or offensive capabilities that Coburn has demonstrated already at the NHL level, but he's much more physical.

I was right about Coburn and Meszaros so we'll see if I'm right about Schenn. The Philly environment could turn him around almost completely in the next couple of years.



Since there is no Weber or Suter coming, we need Mesz to have a big year. He has the capabilities of a true #2 all-around defenseman. We've seen it from him before, but injury problems really hit him hard this year. What happened when he arrived in Philadelphia wasn't a fluke, but once again, Mesz needs insulation. He cannot thrive when expected to be "that" guy. He survives and excels when surrounded by consistent teammates.



Still our best defenseman and still top 20 in the NHL. He needs to prove though that age isn't creeping up on him too quickly.



Purely a mean, shut-down defenseman. He will help clear the porch, and having him healthy unlike in the playoffs is a big help. Same with Mesz.
Regardign Coburn, 30 points is something he's hit but I don't expect it consistently. He doesn't have a great shot or great vision, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Regarding Mesz, what you said is right and that's what I mean by it's time for him to turn the corner and lead the top pairing instead of being the player that is insulated. He actually was projected as a potential #1 early in his career because he has all the tools.

He can pass, shoot, play physical, clear the net, and has size. Now it's up to him to let the mental part of the game catch up to his physical talents and take the next step.

If he grows into leading the top paring this year, it'll save the Flyers a lot of headaches.

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07-27-2012, 01:11 AM
  #144
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Regardign Coburn, 30 points is something he's hit but I don't expect it consistently. He doesn't have a great shot or great vision, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
And Carle possesses a great shot from the point? And he has vision to pass the opponent the puck on all those outlet passes from the zone right?

I challenge you to prove that Coburn can not break 30+ points this season with PP time.

2011-12
Matt Carle - 38 points
-- 12 points on the PP
-- 2:38 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 26 points at even strength
Braydon Coburn - 24 points
-- 0 points on the PP
-- 0:21 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 24 points at even strength

Shows you just how useless Matt Carle really is. We were FORCED to under-utilize Coburn's game because we didn't have anyone else that could really play defense. Now we have Schenn and Grossmann. It's time to let Coburn play a full two-way game. No more underutilizing his skill-set.

I hope nobody argues by point by explaining that Carle has a much better shot from the point or is safer with the puck.

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07-27-2012, 01:24 AM
  #145
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And Carle possesses a great shot from the point? And he has vision to pass the opponent the puck on all those outlet passes from the zone right?

I challenge you to prove that Coburn can not break 30+ points this season with PP time.

2011-12
Matt Carle - 38 points
-- 12 points on the PP
-- 2:38 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 26 points at even strength
Braydon Coburn - 24 points
-- 0 points on the PP
-- 0:21 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 24 points at even strength

Shows you just how useless Matt Carle really is. We were FORCED to under-utilize Coburn's game because we didn't have anyone else that could really play defense. Now we have Schenn and Grossmann. It's time to let Coburn play a full two-way game. No more underutilizing his skill-set.

I hope nobody argues by point by explaining that Carle has a much better shot from the point or is safer with the puck.
But I'm so going to miss those limp wrist shots into the shins of the opposing players turning into breakaways!

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07-27-2012, 02:00 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And Carle possesses a great shot from the point? And he has vision to pass the opponent the puck on all those outlet passes from the zone right?

I challenge you to prove that Coburn can not break 30+ points this season with PP time.
2011-12
Matt Carle - 38 points
-- 12 points on the PP
-- 2:38 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 26 points at even strength
Braydon Coburn - 24 points
-- 0 points on the PP
-- 0:21 seconds of PPTOI/game
-- 24 points at even strength

Shows you just how useless Matt Carle really is. We were FORCED to under-utilize Coburn's game because we didn't have anyone else that could really play defense. Now we have Schenn and Grossmann. It's time to let Coburn play a full two-way game. No more underutilizing his skill-set.

I hope nobody argues by point by explaining that Carle has a much better shot from the point or is safer with the puck.
When did I say he can't hit 30? In fact, I believe I already alluded to the fact that he has.

Matt Carle has already hit 40+ points multiple times in his career. Coburn's closest is 36, and only hit that once. Carle faily consistently hits 35+. Everything else for Coburn has below 30. Matt Carle is turnover prone, but to think that he has no offensive creativity or vision is just being foolish. It's pretty evident he has holes in his game, but offensive passing is not one of them.

Nowhere did I say Carle had an overpowering shot or a penchance for mistake-free hockey - stop putting words into my mouth.

Coburn, from obvservation doesn't have the characteristics of what one would call an offensive catalyst. If you look back on his scouting reports when he was drafted, they say the same thing. You may not consider Carle a great defenseman, but he has certainly demonstrated, on multiple occasions, above average vision in the offensive zone.

I don't know why you're trying to argue with me when I'm making the same point you are.

Too much HF, I guess.

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07-27-2012, 02:55 AM
  #147
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You may not consider Carle a great defenseman, but he has certainly demonstrated, on multiple occasions, above average vision in the offensive zone.
Better offensive aptitude and creativity definitely.

Coburn has a better defensive aptitude, is safer with the puck, is more physical, is bigger, block shots, has a better shot from the point, and is at least as mobile as Carle despite his size.

I think giving Coburn the shot to be the all-around defenseman that he can be will pay off in the long run.

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07-27-2012, 03:02 AM
  #148
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Regardign Coburn, 30 points is something he's hit but I don't expect it consistently. He doesn't have a great shot or great vision, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Regarding Mesz, what you said is right and that's what I mean by it's time for him to turn the corner and lead the top pairing instead of being the player that is insulated. He actually was projected as a potential #1 early in his career because he has all the tools.

He can pass, shoot, play physical, clear the net, and has size. Now it's up to him to let the mental part of the game catch up to his physical talents and take the next step.

If he grows into leading the top paring this year, it'll save the Flyers a lot of headaches.
Coburn has a bomb from the point. It's just not that accurate like Mez's, and he doesn't time it well. He usually shoots into a shot-blocker. His vision really isn't bad either. I've been surprised with some of his playmaking ability when he joins the rush, which he has the speed to do more often. Although I agree with Chris, it seems he's been sheltered a bit so he plays more defensively, and he's playing better that way. It seems the more offensively he plays, the more mistakes he makes.

Mistakes and consistent play are what is keeping Coburn from being a great #2 or a competent #1. If he can put it all together, he can be a hell of a defenseman in this league.

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07-27-2012, 06:00 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
COMPARING POTENTIAL: Ryan by 10~ points
60-65~ points < 70-75~ points
That's a bit of a strecth. Voracek's career high is 51p, Ryan's 71p. What you're doing is giving Voracek a lot of upside while Ryan has already reached his potential.

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COMPARING CONSISTENCY: Ryan by 10~ points
50~ point forward < 60~ point forward
That's more like 50~ vs 65~

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GOAL-SCORING APTITUDE: Ryan by 10-15~ goals
20~ goal forward < 30-35~ goal forward
Voracek has never scored 20g so far in his career while last season was Ryan's worst with 31g.

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So how much is that 10-15-ish points that Ryan is better than Voracek actually worth on the open market, particularly considering their contracts?
No, the question is how much the perceived potential of Voracek affects the gap between the players' value.

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I think the value for Ryan and Voracek is pretty close.
That's just plain wrong and involves a huge homer factor for anyone claiming something like that.

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That said, we've established that it's very possible, even arguable, that Voracek + 1st is almost an overpayment for the limited added benefits that Ryan brings depending on where that first falls.
That's utter and total BS. You have made up your mind but that's only your opinion and outside of Ducks and Flyers fans, you'd be in a small minority.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So how is giving up a 26-year-old (only a year older than Ryan) former Flyers "Defenseman of the Year" to Anaheim for free not considered a gross overpayment?
Meszaros is 1½ years older. Meszaros has a contract with 4.75M and 5.5M years remaining (caphit 4M). He has had a surgery on an injury that often keeps coming back. He's considered even by many Flyers' fans a 4th dman at moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Absolutely incredible...a free, young top-four defenseman is not considered overpayment anymore.
That's just wrong. You somehow managed to reach the conclusion that Ryan and Voracek are roughly the same value (or pretty close) and based everything else on top of that. It's like building a skyscraper on muddy riverbottom and wondering why things keep falling off on the top.

But this discussion is totally inrelevant anyway. To Ducks the value of Voracek, Meszaros and 1st is not even close to Ryan's value and therefore it most likely won't happen. If we had a GM who could be fully trusted, I'd say it will never happen.

Summa summarum, *IF* Flyers were to trade for Ryan, it would have to involve something totally different. If that's not plausible for you or Flyers GM, then we just agree to move on.

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07-27-2012, 06:17 AM
  #150
Appleyard
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Jake last 3 years ( projected if played 82 games): 50, 47, 51 for an average of 49.

Ryan: 64, 71, 57, for an average of 64. (he is a top 30-35 forward offensively in this league, compared to about top 90 for Jake)

There is a 15 point difference between the two, if Jake has, as he says he has, been working on his shot, this difference would be <10 points. But that is a big IF.

At this moment Ryan is worth Jake+... now I'm not exactly sure what the plus is, and I would not want to trade Voracek for him due to that, if it was straight up I would in a heartbeat (and I love Jake) but face it, it would not be.

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