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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:04 PM
  #126
DAChampion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I bet you are very good at playing NHL 12. Can you tank on video games?
The fact you bring up video games tells me that you are 15. It makes me feel less bad that you wrote such a cartoonish post.

Hint: people almost universally stop playing video games from college on. The last EA sports game I played was NHL 95 on Super Nintendo.

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07-26-2012, 08:07 PM
  #127
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I'm a little annoyed at the whole " next draft will be the best in years" thought. I hear the same thing every year..

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:17 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The fact you bring up video games tells me that you are 15. It makes me feel less bad that you wrote such a cartoonish post.

Hint: people almost universally stop playing video games from college on. The last EA sports game I played was NHL 95 on Super Nintendo.
Hey DA

Do me a favor. Can you run an in-depth analysis of the Columbus Blue Jackets?

From 2000-2012, they had only ONE first round draft pick that was not top ten (21st pick in 2009). The rest of the years their average pick in the first round was at the 5 spot.

In 2012, they drafted Number TWO in the first round.

So, with regard to the research, I need you to determine if they remain a failure because of their lack of "surgical tanking" (instead of "ordinary tanking") or if their management and coaching is sub-par.

Thanks.

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:22 PM
  #129
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tanking sucks


Last edited by The Doors: 07-26-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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Old
07-26-2012, 08:29 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The fact you bring up video games tells me that you are 15. It makes me feel less bad that you wrote such a cartoonish post.

Hint: people almost universally stop playing video games from college on. The last EA sports game I played was NHL 95 on Super Nintendo.

actually its common knowledge that the average age of a gamer has increased incrementally since the first xbox was unveiled.

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07-26-2012, 08:31 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Hey DA

Do me a favor. Can you run an in-depth analysis of the Columbus Blue Jackets?

From 2000-2012, they had only ONE first round draft pick that was not top ten (21st pick in 2009). The rest of the years their average pick in the first round was at the 5 spot.

In 2012, they drafted Number TWO in the first round.

So, with regard to the research, I need you to determine if they remain a failure because of their lack of "surgical tanking" (instead of "ordinary tanking") or if their management and coaching is sub-par.

Thanks.
CBJ sucks at drafting, worst run organization in the league. They're an exception not a rule, probably the worst example to use considering timmins track record.

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:43 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
actually its common knowledge that the average age of a gamer has increased incrementally since the first xbox was unveiled.
People keep playing games, but not as much as when they're kids.

With respect to the 25 year-olds who play significant hours, I suspect it's related to the skyrocketing youth unemployment rate. Failure to launch.

I remember being able to play 12, 14 hours in a row. I was once one of the 20 best Age of Empires II deathmatch players in the world (not as great as it sounds) ... and then I had to work. I went back ~12 months later, and found that the 12-18 year-olds were much faster and absolutely kicking my ass. I got bored and moved on. I still play a few games sometimes, maybe 1 or 2 hours a week. Such is life if you're fortunate enough to find work.

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07-26-2012, 10:19 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
CBJ sucks at drafting, worst run organization in the league. They're an exception not a rule, probably the worst example to use considering timmins track record.
But, but, but.........they are following the tank model that DAChampion and a few others are advocating.

Draft 1st rounders. Suck at hockey and draft more 1st rounders year after year.

In making an excuse for Columbus in an effort to support tanking for the strategy of "drafting high is more important than winning", you spoke the most truth on this entire thread.

Columbus is a poorly run organization. Just like the Montreal Canadiens under Gainey/Gauthier were a poorly run organization.

You can draft 1st rounders year after year. If you do not have an effective management that knows how to develop its players, build a team that is cohesive with role players, or hire a coaching staff that is able to get the maximum results from its players.......then drafting high in the first round gets you nothing.

Montreal does not need to tank or blow up this team. No, all we needed was to have someone to step in who understands modern day hockey.

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Old
07-26-2012, 10:28 PM
  #134
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Honestly dude... you make a pretty solid case.

Obviously if we aren't going to make the playoffs than I want to be as low as possible. A high 2013 pick could set the franchise up for the next decade, no question about it.

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Old
07-26-2012, 10:35 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
People keep playing games, but not as much as when they're kids.

With respect to the 25 year-olds who play significant hours, I suspect it's related to the skyrocketing youth unemployment rate. Failure to launch.

I remember being able to play 12, 14 hours in a row. I was once one of the 20 best Age of Empires II deathmatch players in the world (not as great as it sounds) ... and then I had to work. I went back ~12 months later, and found that the 12-18 year-olds were much faster and absolutely kicking my ass. I got bored and moved on. I still play a few games sometimes, maybe 1 or 2 hours a week. Such is life if you're fortunate enough to find work.

Age of Empire.... Rise of Rome??

I remember that, classic.

I don't play games much, few times a year. But, I don't think people stop playing because of work.

Anyways, back to topic...

Might as well post " to be or not to be".

Tanking one more could work but lets see how everything goes for the first 30ish games.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:03 PM
  #136
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I agree that a bottom 5 finish would be great for the Habs longterm.

I agree that the team is currently not a championship team, and even if prospects like Tinordi, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Gallagher, Leblanc develop nicely and are added to the current core there's still a bunch of holes.

It would be great to fill those holes with players like MacKinnion or Jones. And probably our 2nds could prove to be valuable in the future.

But any whiff of the franchise potentially purposely doing something like that would taint the franchise and put the MB regime to bed immediately. The media would blow it up and the fans would be all over it. The "new" direction of the franchise is meant to be establishing a team that competes for the Cup every year. We don't tank. We con bad teams and bad GMs into trading us their 1st picks and then protect the investment by trading good players to other bad teams like we used to.

We don't aim our boat into the rocks. We don't even pretend to look away while someone else does something bad. This team is meant to be returning to a championship mentality.

We will fill our holes through better player development, better coaching, continued excellence in drafting, and smart free agent signings and trades. And we will do it with our attitude and direction.

And perhaps we'll try really hard and have hard luck with injuries and an improved conference and will get a bottom 5 pick anyway. Then...whoopee!

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:35 PM
  #137
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Bergevin's job is at stake for the guidance of a profitable sports team that millions of people root for. He will not make irrational trades of veterans to satisfy the whims of video game playing youths who bear no responsibility for the outcome. Calls for tanking will go unheeded, to the disappointment of those misguided amateurs.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:42 PM
  #138
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Talking about tanking right now is an insult to our organisation.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:46 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
tanking sucks
Tankers suck too.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:47 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
Talking about tanking right now is an insult to our organisation.
it's an insult to primates of all staged of evolutionary levels that people are talking about losing already.

Let them play, then we can see. The team will be better than we expect imo.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:54 PM
  #141
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our team matches up well against anybody (on paper imho). its a question of getting our players to play to their potential and to hope we get some luck along the way - no injuries , breakout seasons (eller ? subban ? Leblanc ? white ? ) , some crazy goalthending ... - and we are set to have a great year ahead... at least to watch ... and then in the playoffs who knows ... but man cheer up.

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Old
07-27-2012, 12:08 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The fact you bring up video games tells me that you are 15. It makes me feel less bad that you wrote such a cartoonish post.

Hint: people almost universally stop playing video games from college on. The last EA sports game I played was NHL 95 on Super Nintendo.
The video game I play the most with my girlfriend is stick and move!


Last edited by Prust Y U MAD Bruins*: 07-27-2012 at 12:15 AM.
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Old
07-27-2012, 12:11 AM
  #143
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... double post

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Old
07-27-2012, 12:31 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
100% wrong.

There's nothing competitive or warrior-like about wanting to finish in 8th place. 8th place is for people who have short attention spans and value instant gratification.

You know what you are if you're checking the standings in March and you're counting how many overtime losses the team needs to finish in 8th? You're mediocre.

A real warrior and champion asks what it takes to win the brass ring, to go for it all. I've laid out a Stanley Cup strategy precisely because I'm competitive.
This is where your "logic" breaks down. You stated elsewhere that you don't want to finish 8th and exit in the first round, but "make some noise" in the POs. the problem is, there is never a guarantee of winning the cup, obviously. And if you argue that 4 or 5 playoff games isn't worth it, than what is the benefit of making it to the conference finals or even the cup finals if you don't win it?

Philly is a yearly contender, but hasn't won a cup since the Ford administration. San Jose and two-time reigning President's trophy champions Vancouver have never one a cup.

Are you suggesting The Canucks and their fans would have been better off finishing 26th than first but not winning the cup?

We could draft Mackinnon, hell we could be bequeathed the top five picks in next year's draft and would have zero guarantee of winning a cup in the foreseeable future.

Why not enjoy an 82 game season and hopefully a number of playoff games if not series, and who knows maybe we win a cup anyway? If you refuse to consider the Kings a true 8th place team (despite the fact that they were because they finished, um, 8th), what about the terrifyingly mediocre Devils finishing 6th with a 40 year-old goalie and perhaps three skaters anyone on these boards could have named going into last season? Is sixth place so absolutely out of the question for us this year? Oh, right, your crystal ball has us finishing in 13th. Any tips as to the stock price of Apple next May?


Last edited by BJG: 07-27-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
07-27-2012, 12:53 AM
  #145
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Hey, maybe you shouldn't pass off your opinions as facts.

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Old
07-27-2012, 01:04 AM
  #146
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I can't believe there are people in July being absolutely excited to sit down and watch the Habs win 25 games next season.

All I have to say is what's the point of drafting Paajarvi, Hall and RNH just to draft Yakupov the year after?

You don't win the cup by finishing last in the process. At some point you gotta win some games.

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Old
07-27-2012, 03:07 AM
  #147
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Aren't the 4 picks we have in the Top 60 good enough?? If the 2013 draft is so wrought with talent and Timmins so adept at spotting it, why aren't we all content with the extra picks we already have? Because we might not get a shot at Nathan MacKinnon or Seth Jones or Hockey McHockerson? Well, there are 29 teams that walked away from the 2005 draft without Sidney Crosby on their roster and still some of them were able to win the cup without him.

I get the strategy. I also get the fascination with the "Next Big Star". I suffer from the same affliction from time to time. It's normal (especially when your team finishes 28th in the league). But there's hope, people!

I won't go into all the reasons why that have been pored over ad nauseum in these threads, but this team is a potential playoff team. That in and of itself should provide some glimmer of positivity to even the most jaded fan... in the month of JULY!!! If it was February and we were crap, I'd understand the relevance of this argument, but not now.

At the very least, let them suck before mentioning the "T" word.

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07-27-2012, 08:15 AM
  #148
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There have already been countless tanking vs 8th place threads on this board and this one does not bring anything new from the OP or any the replies.

The fact is that where the team finishes doesn't have all that much impact on the future. Sure, picking high gives you a better chance of getting a quality player and grabbing a number of of picks in the first 2 rounds will give the team better prospect depth. However, most contenders aren't really built that way and teams that have had a number of top-5 picks haven't necessarily been successful (Atlanta, Columbus, NY Islanders, etc). The only team that really did was Pittsburgh and they got extremely lucky to be bad when generational talents were available in Malkin and Crosby.

Free agents and trades have just as much, if not more impact on the quality of a teams success and tanking isn't worth much.

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07-27-2012, 08:29 AM
  #149
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Two things:

1- saying we deserved to be 12th is a bit of an insult. We could've been as high as a playoff spot.

2- we replaced Kostitsyn with Prust? Most sane people should stop reading after that comment.

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Old
07-27-2012, 08:42 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post

In making an excuse for Columbus in an effort to support tanking for the strategy of "drafting high is more important than winning", you spoke the most truth on this entire thread.

Columbus is a poorly run organization. Just like the Montreal Canadiens under Gainey/Gauthier were a poorly run organization.
And that's the whole story.

Yes, Timmins & his staff have done a great job over the past decade but we have had two nimrods running this organization while Timmins was frantically trying to patch up the holes those two incompetent boobs created.

The Habs don't need to tank. With Timmins & his staff in place they simply need a management team that is half way decent and can complement the drafted prospects by making smart trades and signings.

Bergevin wasn't my first choice as GM but for the most part I like what he has done so far and I don't think failure (tanking) is an option for him.

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