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A look at the improvement of the flames from last year to this year.

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07-21-2012, 04:46 PM
  #26
GototheFlamestotheGo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I actually think our center position has improved (I know call me crazy). I suspect our centers will be
Cammy
Cervenka
Backlund
Stajan

last season we had
Jokinen
Stajan
Backlund
Jones

but we also used Moss as a center. Cammy showed more chemistry with Tangs and Iggy than Jokinen and put up 16 points in 18 games as a center for a pace of 73 which is much better than Jokinen put up. At 5v5 Cammy was 44% at faceoffs while Jokinen was 47% but this was Cammy's first real time playing center since he made the nhl. I don't think it is impossible for Cammy to improve his faceoffs by 4 or 5 % this offseason making him better than Jokinen. So I say optimistically that Cammy>Jokinen.

Last year we refused to use Stajan because Sutter didn't like him I doubt that Hartley has any personal bias against any player yet meaning that we could see Stajan taking 1000+ faceoffs this year and use him as a specialist which would be a huge improvement over using Jokinen in these situation so I say that is also a win.

We won't know if we will do well at faceoffs until we see Cervenka if Cervenka is a top 6 centerman than it is a HUGE improvement as last year we had 2 players that I felt could play in the top 6 being Jokinen and Stajan but if Cervenka is a top 6 centerman we would have 3 and we could see Backlund take a step to become a #2 centerman as well.

Are we deep with proven talent HELL NO but there is reason to be optimistic about the centers we do have.
While Cammy does have far better chemistry with Iggy, his strengths are his shot and skating to a shooting position. As a center, he will have far more playmaking and defensive responsibilities which will naturally limit his ability to play to his strengths that he has developed over his NHL career as a winger. Even with Tangs as the primary playmaker. Also, a 4 to 5% increase in faceoffs is absolutely huge and seeing as how our top line will be matched by the other teams' top checking lines and their top centers, the chance of it increasing that substantially is pretty slim.

It is extremely optimistic to say Cammy is a better center than Jokinen at this point.

Stajan will likely be used more but mainly in a bottom 6 role. I could be wrong but Stajan has never come across as much of a penalty killer or a defensive center, which is the job he will have to fulfill in that role. While he did do that for the most part of last season, I never felt like he was particularly effective at it and only really shined when playing in a top 6 role, specifically with Iggy and Tangs. Yes he will take more faceoffs but how effective he will be remains to be seen. Still a big question mark.

Don't expect Cervenka to revamp the center position, especially from a faceoff standpoint. Last reg season, in 51 games in the KHL, he took a grand total of 143 faceoffs and 155 faceoffs the year before. Though he won 51% of those, his overall F0% in the KHL reg. season has been under 50%. That said, taking around 3 faceoffs per game is FAAAAAR too small a sample size to judge whether he can win faceoffs against stronger competition at the NHL level. Once again, a big question mark.

Backlund needs to be given more PP time to be effective. He is arguably our best defensive center but that once again doesn't play to his offensive strengths of vision and playmaking ability. With more PP time, he'll score more points but as it is with all of our centers, faceoffs is an issue. I think Backs will have a strong year playing with Baertschi.

You can say that our center depth has improved. I'm going to say that there are a ton of question marks. Will the more offensive style help us score more and help our forwards be more effective? Likely. But will that come at the cost of piss poor defense? If Hartley is the second coming of the Keenan era, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it will. Lots of questions. No real answers.

EDIT: Here is the KHL stats page for Cervanka: http://en.khl.ru/players/16827/

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07-21-2012, 05:27 PM
  #27
tfong
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Calgary should draft the way I draft for my keeper team strength down the middle would never be an issue

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07-21-2012, 05:39 PM
  #28
superhakan
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Hmm... seems like Cervenka may be better at FO than I expected. He was at 60 percent in the playoffs last season (at roughly 6 FO a game), and for the last 2 seasons he's at 53 percent(ish). Of course this is limited sample sizes, but Feaster did mention that they brought in Cervenka to improve FO at the press conference.

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07-21-2012, 05:44 PM
  #29
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Calgary should draft the way I draft for my keeper team strength down the middle would never be an issue
Yeah! I'd watch the Calgary Red Wings!!

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07-21-2012, 05:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GototheFlamestotheGo View Post
While Cammy does have far better chemistry with Iggy, his strengths are his shot and skating to a shooting position. As a center, he will have far more playmaking and defensive responsibilities which will naturally limit his ability to play to his strengths that he has developed over his NHL career as a winger. Even with Tangs as the primary playmaker. Also, a 4 to 5% increase in faceoffs is absolutely huge and seeing as how our top line will be matched by the other teams' top checking lines and their top centers, the chance of it increasing that substantially is pretty slim.

It is extremely optimistic to say Cammy is a better center than Jokinen at this point.

Stajan will likely be used more but mainly in a bottom 6 role. I could be wrong but Stajan has never come across as much of a penalty killer or a defensive center, which is the job he will have to fulfill in that role. While he did do that for the most part of last season, I never felt like he was particularly effective at it and only really shined when playing in a top 6 role, specifically with Iggy and Tangs. Yes he will take more faceoffs but how effective he will be remains to be seen. Still a big question mark.

Don't expect Cervenka to revamp the center position, especially from a faceoff standpoint. Last reg season, in 51 games in the KHL, he took a grand total of 143 faceoffs and 155 faceoffs the year before. Though he won 51% of those, his overall F0% in the KHL reg. season has been under 50%. That said, taking around 3 faceoffs per game is FAAAAAR too small a sample size to judge whether he can win faceoffs against stronger competition at the NHL level. Once again, a big question mark.

Backlund needs to be given more PP time to be effective. He is arguably our best defensive center but that once again doesn't play to his offensive strengths of vision and playmaking ability. With more PP time, he'll score more points but as it is with all of our centers, faceoffs is an issue. I think Backs will have a strong year playing with Baertschi.

You can say that our center depth has improved. I'm going to say that there are a ton of question marks. Will the more offensive style help us score more and help our forwards be more effective? Likely. But will that come at the cost of piss poor defense? If Hartley is the second coming of the Keenan era, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it will. Lots of questions. No real answers.

EDIT: Here is the KHL stats page for Cervanka: http://en.khl.ru/players/16827/
I don't think it is that optimistic to say Cammy is a better fit than Jokinen, Iginla is a very good passer and having Cammy allows Iggy to make more passes which allows Cammy to score (08-09 Iginla had 53 assists his second most ever). I don't think Cammy at this point is as strong defensively as Jokinen was but I feel like if Harltey uses them right (offensively not to shutdown) they could be the best top line this team has had since we got Iginla.

I already said that Cervenka is a question mark and I feel that he will be the deciding factor of whether we will be better or not. But I find it promising that he did well in the KHL offensively when teamed up with talent (Jagr) so I think GlenX and Hudler could help him to be a 40-50 point player.

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07-21-2012, 07:40 PM
  #31
Xelstyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I actually think our center position has improved (I know call me crazy). I suspect our centers will be
Cammy
Cervenka
Backlund
Stajan

last season we had
Jokinen
Stajan
Backlund
Jones

but we also used Moss as a center. Cammy showed more chemistry with Tangs and Iggy than Jokinen and put up 16 points in 18 games as a center for a pace of 73 which is much better than Jokinen put up. At 5v5 Cammy was 44% at faceoffs while Jokinen was 47% but this was Cammy's first real time playing center since he made the nhl. I don't think it is impossible for Cammy to improve his faceoffs by 4 or 5 % this offseason making him better than Jokinen. So I say optimistically that Cammy>Jokinen.

Last year we refused to use Stajan because Sutter didn't like him I doubt that Hartley has any personal bias against any player yet meaning that we could see Stajan taking 1000+ faceoffs this year and use him as a specialist which would be a huge improvement over using Jokinen in these situation so I say that is also a win.

We won't know if we will do well at faceoffs until we see Cervenka if Cervenka is a top 6 centerman than it is a HUGE improvement as last year we had 2 players that I felt could play in the top 6 being Jokinen and Stajan but if Cervenka is a top 6 centerman we would have 3 and we could see Backlund take a step to become a #2 centerman as well.

Are we deep with proven talent HELL NO but there is reason to be optimistic about the centers we do have.
Have to disagree with most of this post.

Jokinen>Cammy
Other than that, there's only the addition of Cervenka which is a complete unknown and all other centers, Stajan, Backlund and Jones that will remain on the team.

I think the main reason why we are optimistic about our centers is because we have a pretty good idea of how badly it could turn out.
Biggest difference though is what Hartley can do for this team to draw out the best of what we have down the middle.

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Old
07-21-2012, 07:45 PM
  #32
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by Xelstyle View Post
Have to disagree with most of this post.

Jokinen>Cammy
Other than that, there's only the addition of Cervenka which is a complete unknown and all other centers, Stajan, Backlund and Jones that will remain on the team.

I think the main reason why we are optimistic about our centers is because we have a pretty good idea of how badly it could turn out.
Biggest difference though is what Hartley can do for this team to draw out the best of what we have down the middle.
Based on what? him being 1% better at faceoffs? The fact he had a worse ppg at center while playing more time? The fact he never had chemistry with our top line while Cammy has proven to have alot? I said being optimistic that Cammy would be better because of these factors.

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07-21-2012, 07:51 PM
  #33
Xelstyle
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Based on what? him being 1% better at faceoffs? The fact he had a worse ppg at center while playing more time? The fact he never had chemistry with our top line while Cammy has proven to have alot? I said being optimistic that Cammy would be better because of these factors.
According to your post, about 3% better.

The fact that he's been relied on to play against the top competition. Maybe not the defensive stalwart we'd like but still a lot better than Cammy's ability to play both ways and handle what there inevitably will be, bigger bodies.

Not to mention, Jokinen eventually developed some good chemistry when it was Glencross-Jokinen-Iginla in a puck cycling game.

Is Jokinen a whole not better? I wouldn't say so. I'm just not all that confident in Cammy being as good as what we should expect out of a playoff contending #1C.

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07-21-2012, 07:54 PM
  #34
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Yeah! I'd watch the Calgary Red Wings!!
When can I order a jersey of the Winged Flame for you?

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Old
07-21-2012, 07:55 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Xelstyle View Post
According to your post, about 3% better.

The fact that he's been relied on to play against the top competition. Maybe not the defensive stalwart we'd like but still a lot better than Cammy's ability to play both ways and handle what there inevitably will be, bigger bodies.

Not to mention, Jokinen eventually developed some good chemistry when it was Glencross-Jokinen-Iginla in a puck cycling game.

Is Jokinen a whole not better? I wouldn't say so. I'm just not all that confident in Cammy being as good as what we should expect out of a playoff contending #1C.
While I agree that Cammy isn't a real #1 centerman but neither is Jokinen I think Cammy could be a better fit. Jokinen and Iginla never looked the way Cammy and Iggy look. I understand that Jokinen was used defensively but if he was one the first line we would be wasting Tanguay and Iginla playing defensively or Cammy is a better fit for a more offensive system. Jokinen doesn't fit this team.

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07-21-2012, 09:44 PM
  #36
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Olli Jokinen's defensive play last season was severly overrated by Flames fans.

Yes he played tough minutes, but he really did not play them that effectively. He was the team's biggest liability five on five (statistically). He is an adequate defensive player, but is certainly replaceable in that respect.

Here is the breakdown;
Bouwmeester - 66 Goals against in 1,678:21 of ES time on ice (0.039 GA Per Minute)
Iginla - 65 Goals against in 1,414:45 of ES time on ice (0.046 GA Per Minute)
Jokinen - 64 Goals against in 1,266:52 of ES time on ice (0.051 GA Per Minute)
Hannan - 64 Goals against in 1,359:43 of ES time on ice (0.047 GA Per Minute)

I think this kills two birds with one stone here as it also shows just how effective Bouwmeester was in relation too his teammates while at even strength.

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07-21-2012, 10:43 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
While I agree that Cammy isn't a real #1 centerman but neither is Jokinen I think Cammy could be a better fit. Jokinen and Iginla never looked the way Cammy and Iggy look. I understand that Jokinen was used defensively but if he was one the first line we would be wasting Tanguay and Iginla playing defensively or Cammy is a better fit for a more offensive system. Jokinen doesn't fit this team.
To that I'll say I'm very excited to see what Hartley can do with our rag-tag bunch.

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07-22-2012, 12:13 AM
  #38
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Flames will be a solid 9 through 12 team next year...

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07-22-2012, 12:34 AM
  #39
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About Cervenka, you all do know that him playing wing in the K wasn't about his faceoffs... It was about his defensive responsibilities as a center lol.

Just saying. All should read his interview with jagr from a couple years ago, it's actually quite funny.

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07-22-2012, 12:43 AM
  #40
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Flames will be a solid 9 through 12 team next year...
6-10 is where I seem them finishing

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Old
07-22-2012, 01:41 AM
  #41
tfong
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
Olli Jokinen's defensive play last season was severly overrated by Flames fans.

Yes he played tough minutes, but he really did not play them that effectively. He was the team's biggest liability five on five (statistically). He is an adequate defensive player, but is certainly replaceable in that respect.

Here is the breakdown;
Bouwmeester - 66 Goals against in 1,678:21 of ES time on ice (0.039 GA Per Minute)
Iginla - 65 Goals against in 1,414:45 of ES time on ice (0.046 GA Per Minute)
Jokinen - 64 Goals against in 1,266:52 of ES time on ice (0.051 GA Per Minute)
Hannan - 64 Goals against in 1,359:43 of ES time on ice (0.047 GA Per Minute)

I think this kills two birds with one stone here as it also shows just how effective Bouwmeester was in relation too his teammates while at even strength.
That also doesn't take into account contributions offensively for Jbo. As the defacto #1 dman he needs to be putting up points on the board more.

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Old
07-22-2012, 03:09 AM
  #42
superhakan
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About Cervenka, you all do know that him playing wing in the K wasn't about his faceoffs... It was about his defensive responsibilities as a center lol.

Just saying. All should read his interview with jagr from a couple years ago, it's actually quite funny.
I havent read the interview (just the quote) but If Cervenka is playing center it makes the most sense to pair him with Hudler and Glencross. Glencross is needed to be the defensive anchor on that line.

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07-22-2012, 10:07 AM
  #43
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I havent read the interview (just the quote) but If Cervenka is playing center it makes the most sense to pair him with Hudler and Glencross. Glencross is needed to be the defensive anchor on that line.
100 agree. Also if defence is the thing holding you back... It can be taught, just look at what jersey did to one of the most ridiculously floaty, non defensively aware players to ever step onto an NHL ice.

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07-22-2012, 12:21 PM
  #44
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6-10 is where I seem them finishing
Its actually hilarious the similarities between the Leafs and Flames, on so many levels from positional needs to franchise makeup to the fan base

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07-22-2012, 12:37 PM
  #45
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The season should just start already. Miss hockey so much

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Old
07-22-2012, 12:42 PM
  #46
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Its actually hilarious the similarities between the Leafs and Flames, on so many levels from positional needs to franchise makeup to the fan base
I disagree there, Burke has put much of his focus on remodeling the Leafs to a big and strong team that punishes their opposition (ie. Bruins, Kings). The Flames have gotten away from that and have been focusing on making the team much more skilled. This will be more evident with on roster in 2 seasons.

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07-22-2012, 01:55 PM
  #47
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Something being overlooked here

One thing to remember too, is that this is the first time in a decade that the Flames wont be playing Sutter hockey, or have one in a position of influence (coach, gm, etc). That alone is enough to make me optimistic about this team. Who knows what Hartley can do with Stajan, Boumeester, etc. Both of those guys have shown the ability to put up points at the NHL level. Maybe they just need a new system. Call me crazy...

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07-27-2012, 03:55 AM
  #48
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We are horrible down the middle. Unless Cervenka and Backlund have a coming out party, we are in trouble.
This is about as accurate as it gets. Here's hoping!

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