Probably entering the discussing late, but my two cents:
1- Ryan is a consistent 30 goal scorer. PLAYING WITH TWO OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE. That has to be discounted.
2- Why would the Flyers trade a young defensemen in Meszaros as part of any trade for a forward? That is counterproductive.
3- I wouldn't trade Voracek and a 1rst alone for Ryan. If Voracek is with Hartnell and Giroux as much as Ryan is with Getzlaf and Perry this season, Voracek may get as many points and possibly more.
1. Bobby gets 0 1st PP time. The second PP for the last few years has been Bobby, and some garbage (An old Koivu, and Jason Blake). If he gets 1st PP time, he could possibly score 40 goals every year.
He hasn't even reached his full potential too. Nobody has reached their full potential until around 28-30, so its not out of the question for him to become a 85 pt guy. Not saying it will happen, but it could (especially with 1st PP time).
I'd say the only way Philly gets Ryan is if they give up Schenn or Couturier. Voracek is a winger, and the Ducks need a center. Meszaros also makes too much money for what he brings, and the Ducks don't have room on D for him. Giroux is too valuable, and Briere is too old, and I don't think the Ducks want Read, so it will have to be Schenn or Couturier. Neither of them have really proven themselves yet, so they aren't as valuable yet.
How about something like Ryan for Couturier+ ? I'm not exactly sure what the + should be, but the only way you get Ryan, is if you give back one of C or S as the centerpiece. Maybe the plus should be a guy like Simmonds, or a couple of firsts or decent prospects. The Ducks want depth, and a 1 for 1 trade doesn't help that. Couturier is kinda still a prospect because he hasn't done enough, so he hasn't reached Bobby's value yet for a 1 for 1 type deal.
Cheers.
Last edited by Corey Perry*: 07-27-2012 at 06:45 AM.
How about something like Ryan for Couturier+ ? I'm not exactly sure what the + should be, but the only way you get Ryan, is if you give back one of C or S as the centerpiece. Maybe the plus should be a guy like Simmonds, or a couple of firsts or decent prospects.
Let me start off by saying that I'm not part of the "OMG there's no way you can trade any of our young forwards under any circumstances even if it's Jesus Christ on skates coming back" camp.
That said, you're suggesting that appropriate value for Bobby Ryan is one of the top 18 year old players in the game and Wayne Simmonds (28 goals at age 23) or multiple first round picks? Out of your mind.
If Murray is as insistent that there be a 2C and won't take Read as an option, there's no deal to be made. Pretty simple.
1. Bobby gets 0 1st PP time. The second PP for the last few years has been Bobby, and some garbage (An old Koivu, and Jason Blake). If he gets 1st PP time, he could possibly score 40 goals every year.
He hasn't even reached his full potential too. Nobody has reached their full potential until around 28-30, so its not out of the question for him to become a 85 pt guy. Not saying it will happen, but it could (especially with 1st PP time).
I'd say the only way Philly gets Ryan is if they give up Schenn or Couturier. Voracek is a winger, and the Ducks need a center. Meszaros also makes too much money for what he brings, and the Ducks don't have room on D for him. Giroux is too valuable, and Briere is too old, and I don't think the Ducks want Read, so it will have to be Schenn or Couturier. Neither of them have really proven themselves yet, so they aren't as valuable yet.
How about something like Ryan for Couturier+ ? I'm not exactly sure what the + should be, but the only way you get Ryan, is if you give back one of C or S as the centerpiece. Maybe the plus should be a guy like Simmonds, or a couple of firsts or decent prospects. The Ducks want depth, and a 1 for 1 trade doesn't help that. Couturier is kinda still a prospect because he hasn't done enough, so he hasn't reached Bobby's value yet for a 1 for 1 type deal.
Cheers.
Nobody reached full potential until 28-30? maybe in overall terms... but in pointscoring a players prime is about 23-26... Ryan is 25, and only got 30 assists once, and to get 85 points he would need about 45 assists, yeh, he could possibly hit 40 goals, but cannot see him hitting 45 assists.
There is no need to trade for Ryan this year. He is coming to the Flyers when he is ufa in three years in all probability. The Flyers could get he for cheap a year before that too as Anaheim will try to get at least something for him. Everybody in he league knows he wants to be a Flyer so the closer he gets to UFA status, the less likely any other team is going to trade for him. Why shell out huge assets when you can get him on the cheap in two years.
Quick reminder, hockey ******** isn't a verified source on HF. Avoid from posting him into the thread.
Now how am I going to verify that I had the trade info first if my post got deleted! Geez you guys are killing my attempts at becoming the Flyers insider.
There is no need to trade for Ryan this year. He is coming to the Flyers when he is ufa in three years in all probability. The Flyers could get he for cheap a year before that too as Anaheim will try to get at least something for him. Everybody in he league knows he wants to be a Flyer so the closer he gets to UFA status, the less likely any other team is going to trade for him. Why shell out huge assets when you can get him on the cheap in two years.
That's just wrong. You somehow managed to reach the conclusion that Ryan and Voracek are roughly the same value (or pretty close) and based everything else on top of that. It's like building a skyscraper on muddy riverbottom and wondering why things keep falling off on the top.
Actually...their intrinsic value is very close.
You can sit there and squeeze points here or not quote me on points there. The fact remains the same.
On the ice, there is only realistically a slight offensive upside to acquiring Ryan over Voracek. Contracts, age, and defensive play all favor Voracek.
Now how am I going to verify that I had the trade info first if my post got deleted! Geez you guys are killing my attempts at becoming the Flyers insider.
You can sit there and squeeze points here or not quote me on points there. The fact remains the same.
On the ice, there is only realistically a slight offensive upside to acquiring Ryan over Voracek. Contracts, age, and defensive play all favor Voracek.
And you have completely failed to show that. According to your theory, Ryan has already reached his offensive potential and will never improve upon it, yet Voracek still has a 10 point improvement to go. In reality, Ryan had a down year this year, tying his career low, and still had better production than Voracek during his best year. Not to mention the myth that Voracek is so much better defensively than Ryan. Ryan actually PKs more(I think it's slight, but whatever) and he isn't a defensive slouch. You people should watch him more.
Voracek is two years younger and makes a million less. In any debate vs. Ryan, those two marginal differences are all he has going for him.
And you have completely failed to show that. According to your theory, Ryan has already reached his offensive potential and will never improve upon it, yet Voracek still has a 10 point improvement to go.
Ryan won't. He's already hit the forward peak. It will probably last until he's 27, 28, or 29. Then it will diminish.
Voracek is only 22. Plus he'll be on the top line and actually play wing on the PP instead of the point. He'll get Jagr's old minutes with Giroux. It'll help his point totals. There's pretty much no doubt about that. Plus he's just entering that 22-27 range where forwards generally peak offensively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf
In reality, Ryan had a down year this year, tying his career low, and still had better production than Voracek during his best year. Not to mention the myth that Voracek is so much better defensively than Ryan. Ryan actually PKs more(I think it's slight, but whatever) and he isn't a defensive slouch. You people should watch him more.
I know how good Ryan is defensively. I also know how good Voracek is defensively.
Voracek is extremely consistent. When he's not scoring he's still visible all over the ice. Complete opposite of guys like vanRiemsdyk, and I can say that being one of JVR's biggest supporters.
Voracek is the real deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf
Voracek is two years younger and makes a million less. In any debate vs. Ryan, those two marginal differences are all he has going for him.
Three years younger. Cheaper. As good if not better defensively. Almost as good offensively.
If we can trade Read and Meszaros and a first for Ryan this yr, go make a big offer and get Getzlaf or Perry next yr, and keep Schenn and Couts, then after next summer our offense could have almost all of Ducks' first line as our second line:
1st line Harts-Giroux-Voracek
2nd line Ryan-Perry-?
3rd line Schenn-Couts-?
