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Old
07-27-2012, 03:27 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by SAINDON View Post
If thats what we give up to get 1 player (Ryan), then Mr. Snider needs to fire Homer and do whatever it takes to get Sather as our GM.

That price is way too steep. Also, if we do give this up for Ryan he better score 45.
Yes, that proposal is a fraud.

Per the discussion of relative value of Ryan vs. Voracek above, I think Ryan is probably the better player, but not so much better than Voracek that we would have to add much to the package, and certainly not three good players and a pick, obviously.

Personally, Voracek played so well in the playoffs, I don't want to trade him.

His speed and ability to carry the puck up ice and gain the zone is uncanny, and in the absence of a lot of puckmoving D, we need that - esp. on the PP.

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07-27-2012, 03:28 PM
  #177
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He actually has been hitting a lot of stuff the last two weeks, weber included. I know I know, I'm not defending, I'm just sayin'.
Hasn't he been rehashing it from other sources?

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07-27-2012, 03:50 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Hasn't he been rehashing it from other sources?
He may be, but not anyone that I follow on twitter; tsn crew, fourth period etc.

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07-27-2012, 03:51 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by rban View Post
If we can trade Read and Meszaros and a first for Ryan this yr, go make a big offer and get Getzlaf or Perry next yr, and keep Schenn and Couts, then after next summer our offense could have almost all of Ducks' first line as our second line:

1st line Harts-Giroux-Voracek
2nd line Ryan-Perry-?
3rd line Schenn-Couts-?

? could be Simmonds or Talbot
Flying Ducks or Mighty Flyers?

I'm not 100% sure who the Ducks have anymore in their pipeline in the way of forwards, but I would think that losing Perry and/or Getzlaf to free agency after trading Ryan would hurt their team for the next few years. While Ryan could be the odd duck out, if they were to move him I don't see how they would be okay losing Getzlaf/Perry also unless they end up trading them away to rebuild regardless of what they get for Ryan. Or they don't move Ryan at all and possibly take a loss on Perry/Getzlaf.

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07-27-2012, 03:51 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Ryan won't. He's already hit the forward peak. It will probably last until he's 27, 28, or 29. Then it will diminish.

Voracek is only 22. Plus he'll be on the top line and actually play wing on the PP instead of the point. He'll get Jagr's old minutes with Giroux. It'll help his point totals. There's pretty much no doubt about that. Plus he's just entering that 22-27 range where forwards generally peak offensively.
And why will Ryan diminish again? Because of his complete lack of PP time up to this point and continually being bounced around the line-up? People always bring up playing with Perry and Getzlaf, but few realize it's actually hindering his production. Bobby works best on the right side as a playmaker even, but the Ducks have never had a competent centerman or left winger for him. They've also never been able to find someone to gel with Perry and Getzlaf, hence why they end up together.

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I know how good Ryan is defensively. I also know how good Voracek is defensively.

Voracek is extremely consistent. When he's not scoring he's still visible all over the ice. Complete opposite of guys like vanRiemsdyk, and I can say that being one of JVR's biggest supporters.

Voracek is the real deal.
Ok, so he's consistent. But don't make Bobby out to be some defensively liability, he isn't, and that it's a huge difference. Voracek isn't a Selke calibre forward, and Ryan isn't Pavel Bure. I know you said neither, but you definitely imply that it's a great difference.

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Three years younger. Cheaper. As good if not better defensively. Almost as good offensively.
He definitely isn't as good offensively, and I would love to hear you explain how Jakub Voracek is 3 years older than Bobby Ryan. You also forget that Voracek has roughly the same amount of NHL experience as Ryan, so to suggest one will improve and the other won't is absolutely ridiculous given that fact.

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07-27-2012, 04:06 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
And why will Ryan diminish again? Because of his complete lack of PP time up to this point and continually being bounced around the line-up? People always bring up playing with Perry and Getzlaf, but few realize it's actually hindering his production. Bobby works best on the right side as a playmaker even, but the Ducks have never had a competent centerman or left winger for him. They've also never been able to find someone to gel with Perry and Getzlaf, hence why they end up together.



Ok, so he's consistent. But don't make Bobby out to be some defensively liability, he isn't, and that it's a huge difference. Voracek isn't a Selke calibre forward, and Ryan isn't Pavel Bure. I know you said neither, but you definitely imply that it's a great difference.



He definitely isn't as good offensively, and I would love to hear you explain how Jakub Voracek is 3 years older than Bobby Ryan. You also forget that Voracek has roughly the same amount of NHL experience as Ryan, so to suggest one will improve and the other won't is absolutely ridiculous given that fact.
He said Voracek is 3 years younger, is cheaper, gives as good if not better defense, and is close offensively. While the numbers up to this point don't suggest that I believe it will be a lot closer after this year. It doesn't matter anyway though. I think most flyers fans have resigned to the fact that ANH wants the moon and we aren't willing to give it up. Not for Weber or for Ryan. We will simply sign him as a ufa once his contract is up.

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07-27-2012, 04:16 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
He said Voracek is 3 years younger, is cheaper, gives as good if not better defense, and is close offensively. While the numbers up to this point don't suggest that I believe it will be a lot closer after this year. It doesn't matter anyway though. I think most flyers fans have resigned to the fact that ANH wants the moon and we aren't willing to give it up. Not for Weber or for Ryan. We will simply sign him as a ufa once his contract is up.
That's fine, on all points. Although I wouldn't get your hopes up about signing Ryan in three years, way too far away to be thinking like that. If Holmgren wants him, you get him now. And I wouldn't say asking for one of the two centers is the moon, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Also, Voracek is not 3 years younger than Ryan. He's 2. With roughly the same amount of NHL experience as Ryan.

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07-27-2012, 04:18 PM
  #183
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I'll go on record:

Cooter will be better than Ryan not this season 12-13, but next season.

Cooter has a high ceiling. Reasonably soon he could be a 30 goal 50 assist player who is better defensively than Ryan.

Homer should be run out of town if he made a Cooter for Ryan trade.

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07-27-2012, 04:55 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
That's fine, on all points. Although I wouldn't get your hopes up about signing Ryan in three years, way too far away to be thinking like that. If Holmgren wants him, you get him now. And I wouldn't say asking for one of the two centers is the moon, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Also, Voracek is not 3 years younger than Ryan. He's 2. With roughly the same amount of NHL experience as Ryan.
Neither Schenn or Couturier were made available for Weber. For all intents and purposes either one is the moon in Holmgrens eyes. Also why is Voracek being younger and having the same experience in the NHL a bad thing in your eyes?

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07-27-2012, 04:56 PM
  #185
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forever.
So never.

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07-27-2012, 04:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'll go on record:
Cooter has a high ceiling. Reasonably soon he could be a 30 goal 50 assist player who is better defensively than Ryan.
WHOAA!! I have as much man love for Coots as anyone, but let's pump the brakes here! Let him get through his sophomore season before we go throwing out numbers like that.

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07-27-2012, 05:06 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Neither Schenn or Couturier were made available for Weber. For all intents and purposes either one is the moon in Holmgrens eyes. Also why is Voracek being younger and having the same experience in the NHL a bad thing in your eyes?
This is true. Of course, there is no offer sheet type scenario Holmgren can possibly offer for Ryan, so greed may not be an option. And, if not, then he doesn't get him. I'll also add that, in my own opinion, that not making either available was a huge mistake, and one he might've learned from.

And it's not a bad thing. But one should almost keep in mind that their NHL experience is similar, and Voracek's actually been around for a decent while. Their developmental paths, at this point, are probably similar, Ryan just took a little longer to get there in the first place.


Last edited by Gibsons Finest: 07-27-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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07-27-2012, 05:17 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Actually...their intrinsic value is very close.
Again, only your opinion which isn't supported by any facts. 2 years younger and 0.8M lower caphit (with Voracek's actual salary being roughly the same in 1 year) are the only thing going for Voracek at the moment, Ryan has much more on-ice value.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You can sit there and squeeze points here or not quote me on points there. The fact remains the same.
You can keep repeating your opinions and keep claiming them as facts, those are still only your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
On the ice, there is only realistically a slight offensive upside to acquiring Ryan over Voracek. Contracts, age, and defensive play all favor Voracek.
Your again wrong. Whatever edge Voracek has in age and contract is clearly shadowed by Ryan's on-ice performance. Points, goals, physicality, experience etc all speak for Ryan.

Hey, you didn't answer to my first question. What was it that you said about Sbisa not being traded just prior to Pronger trade?

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07-27-2012, 05:32 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
And why will Ryan diminish again?
I said Ryan will likely diminish production-wise by 30.

I think that's a reasonable expectation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Ok, so he's consistent. But don't make Bobby out to be some defensively liability, he isn't, and that it's a huge difference. Voracek isn't a Selke calibre forward, and Ryan isn't Pavel Bure. I know you said neither, but you definitely imply that it's a great difference.
That implication is purely one of your own doing.

I pointed out originally that Ryan is more physical. Voracek can certainly take a hit of course and battle along the boards, but Ryan has more command to his movements.

I then pointed out that Voracek was better defensively. He is. While Ryan is certainly not bad defensively, something I already pointed out in this thread, Voracek is extremely solid and particularly underrated in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
He definitely isn't as good offensively, and I would love to hear you explain how Jakub Voracek is 3 years older than Bobby Ryan.
I said Voracek is THREE YEARS YOUNGER.
I said Voracek is CHEAPER.
I said Voracek is AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER DEFENSIVELY.
I said Voracek is ALMOST AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY BUT LACKING THE SHOT RYAN HAS.

That clear everything up?

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
You also forget that Voracek has roughly the same amount of NHL experience as Ryan, so to suggest one will improve and the other won't is absolutely ridiculous given that fact.
Peak production age for a forward is roughly 23-28 in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What was it that you said about Sbisa not being traded just prior to Pronger trade?
No idea. It was like 4 years ago. I have 11,220 posts. If you remember one specific one then good on you. I, however, don't remember you or anything I said involving Sbisa.

That said, it was widely considered after the fact that we gave up two 1st rounders for Pronger and gave up Sbisa so that we could dump Lupul's salary in order to fit Pronger.

Another point I'd like to emphasize...

Sbisa < Couturier
Pronger > Ryan

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07-27-2012, 05:38 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I said Voracek is ALMOST AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY BUT LACKING THE SHOT RYAN HAS.

That clear everything up?
lol. That's a funny one. Almost as good offensively but lacks one of the major offensive abilities? Well, George Parros is almost as good offensively as Voracek but lack the hands.

Come on Chris, you're just making yourself look silly here.

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07-27-2012, 05:40 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
lol. That's a funny one. Almost as good offensively but lacks one of the major offensive abilities? Well, George Parros is almost as good offensively as Voracek but lack the hands.

Come on Chris, you're just making yourself look silly here.
Voracek as good if not a better passer than Ryan.

Ryan has a better shot hands down.

The difference, in their primes, will amount to about 10-15 points if that.

You're the only one looking silly. Who really believes Parros is closer to Voracek than Voracek is to Ryan?


EDIT: It doesn't really matter in the end. I guess we'll see how many points Voracek can put up on Giroux's wing for a season. Hell, he turned old-man, slow-ass Jagr into a threat.

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07-27-2012, 05:47 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I said Ryan will likely diminish production-wise by 30.

I think that's a reasonable expectation.
Which is 6 seasons away and isn't a terrible prediction. That's all you can really say about it.

Quote:
That implication is purely one of your own doing.

I pointed out originally that Ryan is more physical. Voracek can certainly take a hit of course and battle along the boards, but Ryan has more command to his movements.

I then pointed out that Voracek was better defensively. He is. While Ryan is certainly not bad defensively, something I already pointed out in this thread, Voracek is extremely solid and particularly underrated in this regard.
That's fair enough.

Quote:
I said Voracek is THREE YEARS YOUNGER.
I said Voracek is CHEAPER.
I said Voracek is AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER DEFENSIVELY.
I said Voracek is ALMOST AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY BUT LACKING THE SHOT RYAN HAS.

That clear everything up?
He's cheaper, by a whole million dollars, and the defensive part is accurate. The rest, is not. He's not as good offensively, and he's not three years younger. The fact that you put the age thing in all caps to emphasize your point is hilarious, considering that it is definitely not correct.

Quote:
Peak production age for a forward is roughly 23-28 in the NHL.
Well Ryan still has four years left to improve, then.

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07-27-2012, 05:49 PM
  #193
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I like Couturier but come on guys, he's likely doesn't have the upside of a Bobby Ryan. But I wouldn't trade Couturier though.

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07-27-2012, 05:52 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
WHOAA!! I have as much man love for Coots as anyone, but let's pump the brakes here! Let him get through his sophomore season before we go throwing out numbers like that.
By season 4 or 5. BOOK IT. Let's DO THIS.

Hit the nitrous.

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07-27-2012, 05:58 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
He's cheaper, by a whole million dollars, and the defensive part is accurate. The rest, is not. He's not as good offensively, and he's not three years younger. The fact that you put the age thing in all caps to emphasize your point is hilarious, considering that it is definitely not correct.
25 - 22 = 3

And you said Ryan was 6 years away from 30.

30 - 25 = 5

And when I said peak production is basically 23-28, you said Ryan still had four years left to improve.

28 - 25 = 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erza Scarlet View Post
I like Couturier but come on guys, he's likely doesn't have the upside of a Bobby Ryan. But I wouldn't trade Couturier though.
People were swearing the same thing about Giroux.

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07-27-2012, 05:58 PM
  #196
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You know what? I'm down. I think he can do it.

Remember...this season he didn't have good linemates and was 19 years old.

Edit: Dammit Chris, you couldn't have waited 5 seconds so my post could be there?

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07-27-2012, 06:00 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You know what? I'm down. I think he can do it.

Remember...this season he didn't have good linemates and was 19 years old.

Edit: Dammit Chris, you couldn't have waited 5 seconds so my post could be there?
Sorry.

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07-27-2012, 06:03 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
25 - 22 = 3

And you said Ryan was 6 years away from 30.

30 - 25 = 5

And when I said peak production is basically 23-28, you said Ryan still had four years left to improve.

28 - 25 = 3



People were swearing the same thing about Giroux.
Regarding Ryan's years away from 30 and 28 respectively, I should have said seasons. Ryan will be 28 in the 2015-2016 season, which is four seasons away. Same math applies to reaching 30.

As far as your 25-22=3 comment, I suggest we revisit this discussion in three weeks and see if your answer as changed. Spoiler alert: it will.

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07-27-2012, 06:08 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Erza Scarlet View Post
I like Couturier but come on guys, he's likely doesn't have the upside of a Bobby Ryan. But I wouldn't trade Couturier though.
He has higher upside than Ryan, given his defensive acumen.

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07-27-2012, 06:48 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No idea. It was like 4 years ago. I have 11,220 posts. If you remember one specific one then good on you. I, however, don't remember you or anything I said involving Sbisa.
Ok, I just remember you telling everyone as a fact that Flyers wouldn't give up Sbisa.

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