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Old
07-27-2012, 06:51 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The difference, in their primes, will amount to about 10-15 points if that.

You're the only one looking silly. Who really believes Parros is closer to Voracek than Voracek is to Ryan?
Again you go telling people your opinions as facts. Voracek's best season was 2 years ago, after that he hasn't been able to reach 50p.

Your whole case is build on the fact that you assume Voracek will become a 60p player and Ryan won't be more than 70-75p player.

Good luck with that.

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07-27-2012, 07:00 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Again you go telling people your opinions as facts. Voracek's best season was 2 years ago, after that he hasn't been able to reach 50p.

Your whole case is build on the fact that you assume Voracek will become a 60p player and Ryan won't be more than 70-75p player.

Good luck with that.
No, my whole case is built around the fact that Ryan, through most of his prime, will be a 32-32 ish player. Voracek will be a 20-37 ish player.

Come back to me when I've been proven wrong.

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07-27-2012, 07:00 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Again you go telling people your opinions as facts. Voracek's best season was 2 years ago, after that he hasn't been able to reach 50p.

Your whole case is build on the fact that you assume Voracek will become a 60p player and Ryan won't be more than 70-75p player.

Good luck with that.
jake cant even shoot either, i think alot of people aren't going to realize that jagr was the most important player, with him gone, you cant replace his production without getting a proven goal scorer.

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07-27-2012, 07:32 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, my whole case is built around the fact that Ryan, through most of his prime, will be a 32-32 ish player. Voracek will be a 20-37 ish player.

Come back to me when I've been proven wrong.
lol, this is just too funny. You call that a FACT? Here's a tip, it's not a FACT (especially considering Ryan has already been more than 32-32 ish player and Voracek has never been a 20-37 "ish" player), it's nothing more than your personal (and clearly homerish IMO) opinion.

Yeah, let's visit this some time later. Just like the "fact" that Sbisa wouldn't be traded for Pronger like you said.

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07-27-2012, 07:52 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, my whole case is built around the fact that Ryan, through most of his prime, will be a 32-32 ish player. Voracek will be a 20-37 ish player.

Come back to me when I've been proven wrong.
Alright Nostradamus.

I recommend you stay up every once in a while to catch some West Coast games.

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07-27-2012, 08:34 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, my whole case is built around the fact that Ryan, through most of his prime, will be a 32-32 ish player. Voracek will be a 20-37 ish player.

Come back to me when I've been proven wrong.
Cool, hey while you're at it why don't you give us all the winning lottery numbers?

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07-27-2012, 09:06 PM
  #207
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Prove me wrong. Then you can hate.

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07-27-2012, 09:08 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Prove me wrong. Then you can hate.
I honest to God hope you're right. I think your assessment of Voracek is a bit high and your assessment of Ryan a bit low.

Regardless, if Anahiem is trading Ryan, it's to fill a need that Voracek doesn't address.

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07-27-2012, 09:09 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Prove me wrong. Then you can hate.
Ok. Schenn will be a 30 point player his entire career. Prove me wrong.

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07-27-2012, 09:11 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Ok. Schenn will be a 30 point player his entire career. Prove me wrong.
Sure, if you say so.

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07-27-2012, 09:32 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
jake cant even shoot either, i think alot of people aren't going to realize that jagr was the most important player, with him gone, you cant replace his production without getting a proven goal scorer.
Jagr had nineteen goals last year. It's fine to debate whether or not this team needs a pure goal scorer, but don't act like losing Jagr will be the end of the world.

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07-27-2012, 09:32 PM
  #212
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Are we comparing Jake to Ryan? I like Jake a lot and think he got a nice deal buy comparing him to Bobby Ryan is silly. Bobby scored 30 plus goals and had over 50 pts in every year played except his rookie season where he played 26 games. Jake has not hit the 20 goal mark yet or scored over 50 pts yet! The comparison is silly so stop.

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07-27-2012, 09:34 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Sure, if you say so.
An extreme example, yes, but an exact mirror of your logic. No one can prove you wrong for another five or so years, and by that time everyone will have forgotten. Obviously with mine you'll probably be able to prove it wrong next year, but I digress. It's an insanely stupid argument(the "prove me wrong" part, not necessarily what you said about either player) and the fact that you pass it off as fact is absurd. And that's ignoring that the numbers you posted for Ryan are ones he's already eclipsed(his career low is 31 goals over a full season) and the ones you posted for Voracek are more than his current career highs.

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07-27-2012, 10:30 PM
  #214
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Bobby Ryan is better than Voracek. I really don't know how that can be debated right now. Voraceks POTENTIAL is being compared to bobby Ryan right now. There is 2 issues with this logic. 1, it assumes that bobby Ryan will never get better and 2, it assumes that voracek will reach his potential. Yes Voraceks potential is probably 60-75 points, but it's completely ridiculous to speak in absolutes when comparing him to someone who is ALREADY a 60-75 pt player, and IMO will get better still. Especially considering that they've essentially played the same amount of games in the NHL. It's ridiculous. No one around here can just admit that Ryan is better than Voracek, and likely will be for the duration if their careers.


Last edited by orange is better: 07-27-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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07-27-2012, 10:40 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I honest to God hope you're right. I think your assessment of Voracek is a bit high and your assessment of Ryan a bit low.

Regardless, if Anahiem is trading Ryan, it's to fill a need that Voracek doesn't address.
I don't know, the Bobby Ryan Fanboy Club has won me over. He's the greatest friggin' player in hockey history. I'm surprised this isn't more well known.

The Ducks can't afford to settle for less than Crosby or Malkin, maybe the Sedins or Staals. They have to get full value for him. Could the Flyers still get him? Would Giroux, Couturier and Coburn do it, with a few firsts?

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07-27-2012, 10:47 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I don't know, the Bobby Ryan Fanboy Club has won me over. He's the greatest friggin' player in hockey history. I'm surprised this isn't more well known.

The Ducks can't afford to settle for less than Crosby or Malkin, maybe the Sedins or Staals. They have to get full value for him. Could the Flyers still get him? Would Giroux, Couturier and Coburn do it, with a few firsts?
The issue I see is that the reason Ryan's name is floated is because they want a 2C. However, every team that sees Ryan's name being floated says "Let me offer this winger and another player/prospect". That isn't the point. They're not trading him just for the sake of trading him.

I agree with your sentiment that Bobby Ryan's name value exceeds his current production. He's still young has the pedigree and goal scoring down. Would he improve with Giroux and top PP time? Yes, I believe so. Giroux is better than Getzlaf. Ryan's career shooting percentage tells me that if he took shots in line with what a player like Iginla takes, he'd score 40 goals... no doubt.

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07-27-2012, 10:56 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I don't know, the Bobby Ryan Fanboy Club has won me over. He's the greatest friggin' player in hockey history. I'm surprised this isn't more well known.

The Ducks can't afford to settle for less than Crosby or Malkin, maybe the Sedins or Staals. They have to get full value for him. Could the Flyers still get him? Would Giroux, Couturier and Coburn do it, with a few firsts?
This mantra is no better than the ones of the people you're satirizing. Bobby Ryan is a great player, and better than Voracek. I love both players, but Ryan is better. I wouldn't tear apart my team for him, but I would make a trade for him if it were a reasonable deal. I wouldn't give up couturier. I would have given up Schenn before we traded for his brother, but that's likely off the table now. The only tangible one left is voracek... I really haven't witnessed anyone being as unreasonable as you're generalizing, but if you really can't see how Ryan is a great player that would make this team better (at a reasonable price) then that's just as unreasonable.


Last edited by orange is better: 07-27-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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07-27-2012, 11:04 PM
  #218
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The Flyers don't have the assets to acquire Ryan at this time. The depth is what keeps them competitive, because outside of Giroux, they don't have the elite talent to match with some of the better clubs in the East. If they could get Ryan for futures, then I would be all for it. Anaheim won't go for that and I don't blame them. If they're hellbent on getting him, they'll have to wait until he hits UFA.

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07-28-2012, 01:39 AM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Bobby Ryan is better than Voracek. I really don't know how that can be debated right now. Voraceks POTENTIAL is being compared to bobby Ryan right now. There is 2 issues with this logic. 1, it assumes that bobby Ryan will never get better and 2, it assumes that voracek will reach his potential. Yes Voraceks potential is probably 60-75 points, but it's completely ridiculous to speak in absolutes when comparing him to someone who is ALREADY a 60-75 pt player, and IMO will get better still. Especially considering that they've essentially played the same amount of games in the NHL. It's ridiculous. No one around here can just admit that Ryan is better than Voracek, and likely will be for the duration if their careers.
No. Ryan is awesome.

I have serious doubts that Voracek will ever surpass 60 points. He doesn't have the willingness to shoot, and while Giroux got out of that funk, I just don't see it happening with Voracek to any significant extent.

That said, he will never be better than Ryan in my opinion.

That's not what's being argued here though.

We're arguing whether or not a 25-year-old 60-65 point forward is worth a 22-year-old 50 point forward, a 26-year-old two-way top 4 defenseman, and a 1st round pick; a package many Anaheim fans scoffed at being a "joke" offer.

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07-28-2012, 02:50 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No. Ryan is awesome.

I have serious doubts that Voracek will ever surpass 60 points. He doesn't have the willingness to shoot, and while Giroux got out of that funk, I just don't see it happening with Voracek to any significant extent.

That said, he will never be better than Ryan in my opinion.

That's not what's being argued here though.

We're arguing whether or not a 25-year-old 60-65 point forward is worth a 22-year-old 50 point forward, a 26-year-old two-way top 4 defenseman, and a 1st round pick; a package many Anaheim fans scoffed at being a "joke" offer.
If Ryan were from, say...Texas, I highly doubt anybody here would be throwing these insane offers out for him.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Ok. Schenn will be a 30 point player his entire career. Prove me wrong.
That's a pretty terrible example, all things considered.

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07-28-2012, 06:08 AM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We're arguing whether or not a 25-year-old 60-65 point forward is worth a 22-year-old 50 point forward, a 26-year-old two-way top 4 defenseman, and a 1st round pick; a package many Anaheim fans scoffed at being a "joke" offer.
You said that package would be a spectacular overpayment, that statement is the real joke here.

I wouldn't trade a 35g, 70p physical forward for that package a) because the value is not there IMHO but more importantly b) it doesn't address Ducks' needs in any way.

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07-28-2012, 08:52 AM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
You said that package would be a spectacular overpayment, that statement is the real joke here.

I wouldn't trade a 35g, 70p physical forward for that package a) because the value is not there IMHO but more importantly b) it doesn't address Ducks' needs in any way.
Calling Ryan a 35g 70p forward is like calling Mike Richards a 30g 80p forward...

He did it once, and that year is the only year he got 30 assists in his career. Bobby Ryan is at best a 70p player... but realistically a 65p player who in all likelihood, due to projections of age and player production has already hit his highest point scoring year.

1. There is a 15 point difference between Voracek and Ryan. (all pretty much goals, Voracek is a better passer.)

2. Voracek is worth less than Ryan... but not the kind of packages thrown about.

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07-28-2012, 09:12 AM
  #223
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Some incredible trolling from Ducks fans here.

Nobody ever said Voracek was equal to Ryan in value. Never. If you took a poll, 100% of Flyers fans would prefer Voracek to Ryan.


What Shafer and most other Flyers fans are saying is that the difference in value is not so great as to require multiple pieces in addition to Voracek.

So basically you have come to the Flyers board arguing that Ryan is >>>>> Voracek. Classic trolling. We get it-- he's better. He's still not worth giving up substantial pieces for when Voracek could very well be a 60 point player in the near future.

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07-28-2012, 09:25 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
If Ryan were from, say...Texas, I highly doubt anybody here would be throwing these insane offers out for him.



That's a pretty terrible example, all things considered.
Yep. Just cause hes a local kid, everyone wants him. Dont get me wrong, hes a good player, but some are making him out to be a super star player or with super star value. Its fine for ducks fans to beleive that but i do not fully beleive thats his true value.

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07-28-2012, 11:06 AM
  #225
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Some incredible trolling from Ducks fans here.
Trolling?? WTF? There can be a perfectly good argument about player values without anyone trolling, even with big disagreements. The closest thing to trolling here is calling Mesz+Vor+1st a spectacular overpayment, that's just pure hyperbole.

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Nobody ever said Voracek was equal to Ryan in value. Never. If you took a poll, 100% of Flyers fans would prefer Voracek to Ryan.
I'm confused, did you mean the last part the otherway around or am I missing something? That doesn't make sense.

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What Shafer and most other Flyers fans are saying is that the difference in value is not so great as to require multiple pieces in addition to Voracek.
Yes and Ducks fans strongly disagreed. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
So basically you have come to the Flyers board arguing that Ryan is >>>>> Voracek. Classic trolling. We get it-- he's better. He's still not worth giving up substantial pieces for when Voracek could very well be a 60 point player in the near future.
Again, it's not trolling, it's 2 fanbases having a classic value disagreement. We have established that Ryan is more valuable than Voracek, the question is how many >s there is. I don't think anyone has said that Ryan is >>>>> Voracek, I think most Ducks fans have said Ryan is clearly more valuable than Voracek. And that's not trolling even if most Flyers fans don't agree with the "clearly" part.

But like I've said, regardless of the value, the package simply doesn't address any of Ducks needs which makes it a non-starter for the Ducks.

Ducks don't have to trade Ryan, they might trade him if the right deal comes around. Voracek+Meszaros+1st is not one of those.

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