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Question re Forwards Role in loss to NJ

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Old
07-26-2012, 07:21 PM
  #26
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07-26-2012, 07:43 PM
  #27
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Related to all the issues about the D zone mentioned above, we simply could not maintain any attack zone time 5 on 5 and even on the PP. The dump and chase game does not work against NJ and we failed to adjust. I think because our forwards were so frantic trying to play defense, whenever we got the puck into the neutral zone they really had nothing left to take on NJ's defense and carry the puck into the zone rather then try to chip and chase.

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07-27-2012, 03:16 PM
  #28
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The alarming thing is that I posed a very simple question, and there was no answer. The question is:

Other than Voracek/Giroux/Hartnell, which of our existing forwards will do well in a PO series vs an opponent like Devils.

Dead silence, ie: nobody. So we are just a one line team
(unless we geta run n gun series like Pens). Might become a two line team if both Couts and Schenn develop as expected in a few yrs.

Great. All those forwards with gaudy stats during the reg season, and not one of them worth a d**mn during the POs.

Useless then! Why not trade them all (except fopr our first line, Schenn and Couturier) and stock up the team with Doans, Yandles, Ryans. Let's not think of Doan or Ryan let's think of grabbing both.

That means Simmonds out, Read out, Briere out.

Gut the team and re stock. If they cannot play well in POs vs Devil type teams, what good are they?

NEWS FLASH: I can name upmteen teams in NHL who will play same boring style as Devils in POs.


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07-27-2012, 04:24 PM
  #29
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Its hard to say, i personally believe we are a flawed team and not nearly as good as the number seem to indicate. I certainly don't believe some of the players we have on our team are as good as the stats they put up as well. I feel lavy's system can inflate players stats.

Hockey is such a hard sport to analyze and depict. Football is a sport where you can really depict players and strategy and come to some sort of conclusion. Hockey on the other hand is so fluid and occasionally random that it is hard to sit there and analyze especially since each season, each game, each opponent present new and unique challenges .

Look at how drastically different this team has been the past 3 years. Not only in personnel but in style of play and in luck. Imagine if Montreal beat Boston in game 7 in ot, imagine if florida beat NJ in game 7 in double OT. we could be marching to the beat of a different drum for all we know. Hockey is incredibly hard to look at and break down objectively no matter how hard we try.

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07-27-2012, 04:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
The alarming thing is that I posed a very simple question, and there was no answer. The question is:

Other than Voracek/Giroux/Hartnell, which of our existing forwards will do well in a PO series vs an opponent like Devils.

Dead silence, ie: nobody. So we are just a one line team
(unless we geta run n gun series like Pens). Might become a two line team if both Couts and Schenn develop as expected in a few yrs.

Great. All those forwards with gaudy stats during the reg season, and not one of them worth a d**mn during the POs.

Useless then! Why not trade them all (except fopr our first line, Schenn and Couturier) and stock up the team with Doans, Yandles, Ryans. Let's not think of Doan or Ryan let's think of grabbing both.

That means Simmonds out, Read out, Briere out.

Gut the team and re stock. If they cannot play well in POs vs Devil type teams, what good are they?

NEWS FLASH: I can name upmteen teams in NHL who will play same boring style as Devils in POs.
Dude we got slaughtered by the Devils because Bryz sucked and the D couldn't make a breakout pass for the life of them.

The fwd position is the least area we need to worry about.

Also you want to get rid of Mr. Playoff? Mr. Clutch? The team is going to be hurting enough once he retires. There is little need to make that hole any earlier than we need to.

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07-27-2012, 04:38 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Its hard to say, i personally believe we are a flawed team and not nearly as good as the number seem to indicate. I certainly don't believe some of the players we have on our team are as good as the stats they put up as well. I feel lavy's system can inflate players stats.

Hockey is such a hard sport to analyze and depict. Football is a sport where you can really depict players and strategy and come to some sort of conclusion. Hockey on the other hand is so fluid and occasionally random that it is hard to sit there and analyze especially since each season, each game, each opponent present new and unique challenges .

Look at how drastically different this team has been the past 3 years. Not only in personnel but in style of play and in luck. Imagine if Montreal beat Boston in game 7 in ot, imagine if florida beat NJ in game 7 in double OT. we could be marching to the beat of a different drum for all we know. Hockey is incredibly hard to look at and break down objectively no matter how hard we try.
I don't think the NJ series was a fair test of our young and injured team. I listed them before elsewhere, but most of the D and forwards were playing hurt, and Bryz still wasn't 100% from his chipped ankle bone.

I can't imagine it's easy fighting board battles with a broken wrist, torn abdo muscle, broken finger, sore shoulder, damaged knee, recent concussion, etc.

The Flyers team everyone is so worried about, with one-third ROOKIES in the lineup, kicked the butts of the mighty Pens, but had nothing left.

Heck, we probably got BETTER goaltending in the that series than the Devils did, we just couldn't beat them.

It's not the end of the world, and it could turn out a lot different next year, esp. since they lost their best player/captain...

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07-27-2012, 05:18 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I don't think the NJ series was a fair test of our young and injured team. I listed them before elsewhere, but most of the D and forwards were playing hurt, and Bryz still wasn't 100% from his chipped ankle bone.

I can't imagine it's easy fighting board battles with a broken wrist, torn abdo muscle, broken finger, sore shoulder, damaged knee, recent concussion, etc.

The Flyers team everyone is so worried about, with one-third ROOKIES in the lineup, kicked the butts of the mighty Pens, but had nothing left.

Heck, we probably got BETTER goaltending in the that series than the Devils did, we just couldn't beat them.

It's not the end of the world, and it could turn out a lot different next year, esp. since they lost their best player/captain...
I agree with everything but the goalie comparison. Brodeur had a solid series, and also was a significant factor (as usual) in why the dump-and-chase failed to generate offense.

The issue of strategy against the "boring" teams, though, is still an important one to address. To advance deep in the playoffs, the Flyers will have to win the 2-1 games and not make a living out of winning the 9-7 ones. I think they have taken a step in that direction, as long as Grossmann stays healthy for the whole season, L Schenn ratchets up his game to the higher end of his abilities and Fedotenko contributes well to two-way play.

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07-27-2012, 07:29 PM
  #33
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Giroux was playing with 2 bum wrists wasn't he?

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07-27-2012, 07:54 PM
  #34
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Injuries happen every year. The biggest issues with this team is Lavi's system, which doesn't work well in the playoffs because everyone tightens up defensively, and the lack of defensive forwards. It's all well and good to have a ton of offense and razzle dazzle goals in the regular season but when the chips are down, you can't have players floating at centre ice while their defencemen are trying to cover more than their own opposing player.

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07-27-2012, 07:57 PM
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So we have half the people saying it was injuries and inexperience, and the other half saying that even if there were no injuries and these kids gained experience, it'd still be a problem cuz they are simply not the sort of players that can play and win grinding 2-1 games/

SO which is it? It cant be BOTH, we gotta make a decision here.

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07-27-2012, 11:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Dude we got slaughtered by the Devils because Bryz sucked and the D couldn't make a breakout pass for the life of them.

The fwd position is the least area we need to worry about.

Also you want to get rid of Mr. Playoff? Mr. Clutch? The team is going to be hurting enough once he retires. There is little need to make that hole any earlier than we need to.
Dude. duh. bryz again? such a convenient go to argument for you. he played pretty good in that series. we spent, if you remember, maybe you don't the entire series in our zone getting the **** forechecked out of us. their wingers pinned us in and out worked us. it was a horrible mismatch. they did the same thing to the rangers which they withstood better than us. byrzgalov let in one stupid goal on a bad play by timonen. their attack time in that series was astronomical. i guarantee if bryzgalov has a strong season next year you'll still fail to recognize. who did you want in goal again?

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07-27-2012, 11:58 PM
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So we have half the people saying it was injuries and inexperience, and the other half saying that even if there were no injuries and these kids gained experience, it'd still be a problem cuz they are simply not the sort of players that can play and win grinding 2-1 games/

SO which is it? It cant be BOTH, we gotta make a decision here.
the playoffs are all about match ups. the devils almost won the cup. they didn't try to cheat. they outworked everybody shift to shift. they also had a nice mix of skill and size. what we did in the first round was exciting and fun to watch but we were a rebuilt team with a lot of kids and some key injuries. it was both. we were not goin to win a cup last year with that team. thats what you have to get out of your head. we still have a ton of holes. we have finesse. we need some more grinders.

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07-28-2012, 02:04 AM
  #38
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if you hate the goalie then why are rooting for them? if bryz wins a cup you'll still hate him so why are you even a flyers fan?
of all people you say this. You with all the crap that you spew about the players on this team.
REALLY?.

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07-28-2012, 03:42 AM
  #39
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The one thing I didn't understand was all of the soft dumps into the zone when we did get it out of our zone. Brodeur was obviously handling a majority of those dumps well so I don't see why it was so hard to change that up. Shoot it at the boards behind the net and hope for a good bounce. Anything different?! It was definitely extremely frustrating to watch.

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07-28-2012, 04:08 AM
  #40
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of all people you say this. You with all the crap that you spew about the players on this team.
REALLY?.
No, see. It's different. Here, he's clearly supporting Bryz? I think? Whereas in the other threads every single player on the roster is total garbage who should be traded for half their weight in chewed poop. So...like...stuff. And then we win.

I don't know.

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07-28-2012, 08:11 AM
  #41
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I agree with everything but the goalie comparison. Brodeur had a solid series, and also was a significant factor (as usual) in why the dump-and-chase failed to generate offense.
if Marty was solid, then Bryz was great. Yes, Marty handled most dump-ins, but he gave us about 5 golden turnovers with stickhandling mistakes, and we got a few easy goals as a result. he was certainly outplayed by Bryz. Our goalie was the only reason we even had a chance vs NJ

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07-28-2012, 08:30 AM
  #42
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Dude we got slaughtered by the Devils because Bryz sucked ......
so you don't watch the games then?

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07-28-2012, 09:05 AM
  #43
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The one thing I didn't understand was all of the soft dumps into the zone when we did get it out of our zone. Brodeur was obviously handling a majority of those dumps well so I don't see why it was so hard to change that up. Shoot it at the boards behind the net and hope for a good bounce. Anything different?! It was definitely extremely frustrating to watch.
Absolutely. I love Lavi but he was outcoached all over the place in that series. That's a very easy adjustment to make, but it never changed. Brodeur is one of the best puckhandling goalies in the league and the Flyers made it even easier for him.

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if Marty was solid, then Bryz was great. Yes, Marty handled most dump-ins, but he gave us about 5 golden turnovers with stickhandling mistakes, and we got a few easy goals as a result. he was certainly outplayed by Bryz. Our goalie was the only reason we even had a chance vs NJ
Agreed. Bryz had a couple of brutal plays, but he played well enough to take the Flyers through that series. Unfortunately, he was the only one on the ice who did.

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07-28-2012, 10:13 AM
  #44
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so you don't watch the games then?
How did he not suck? lol

He didn't have a single game that series where he didn't let in at least 3 goals.

Then don't even get me started how we had control of game 5 and he blew that out of the water. We also had control of game one and he tried blowing that out of the water. Danny B bailed his ass out on that one.

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07-28-2012, 10:16 AM
  #45
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The one thing I didn't understand was all of the soft dumps into the zone when we did get it out of our zone. Brodeur was obviously handling a majority of those dumps well so I don't see why it was so hard to change that up. Shoot it at the boards behind the net and hope for a good bounce. Anything different?! It was definitely extremely frustrating to watch.
Here is where the NJ D playing interference came into play. It was my biggest complaint about officiating for that series.

I have no problem with that style of hockey but you got to let both teams do it. We started doing it and players like Kimmo and Carle got nailed for interference while their D got off scott free 99% of the time.

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07-28-2012, 10:28 AM
  #46
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How did he not suck? lol

He didn't have a single game that series where he didn't let in at least 3 goals.

Then don't even get me started how we had control of game 5 and he blew that out of the water. We also had control of game one and he tried blowing that out of the water. Danny B bailed his ass out on that one.
The guy was the best flyer in that series. His goals allowed was not the problem. The rest of the team was. Nevermind. I see your a Bryz hater. Your not worth the discussion. You hate to hate.

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07-28-2012, 11:04 AM
  #47
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Actually if you consider how much time the devils spent in the flyers end the fact Bryz let up 3 or 4 goals a game is rather good.

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07-28-2012, 11:27 AM
  #48
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Im glad this thread was brought up because it brings up some certain aspects about our team that are seriously flawed.

1. WE relied so heavily on the PP and from our first line all season long and including teh first series against pitt. I believe our PP was 50 percent against pitt.

1a. NJ just destroyed our PP and limited our PP chances. They played Jagr very physically and made that line extremly frustrated.


2. We were dominated physically that whole series.

2a. Wingers like clarkson, poni, and Zubrus are larger than any winger we could put out there and those guys dominated board play and possession.

3. I feel our system really takes advantages of other teams mistakes and tries to maximize as many odd man rushes as possible.

3a. NJ did a good job playing as a unit , and their defenders made sure to not get out of position and made us earn it in their end.




Overview:

all year our reliance on the PP and first line was clear as day. The previous year we were so strong even strength and this year we were complete opposite. Hopefully Couturier and Schenn can develop into guys who can solidify that 2nd line and give us the depth scoring we need to be competitive.
Yea we were not supposed to be that good. Supposed to maybe have a good top like given all te potential. Now with the other guys having more of a role and more responsibility they should allow for a better second and third line even with the loses upfront.

I think we lost to NJ because of our injured D plus carle blowing and getting out worked upfront which I think was mental from thinking jersey sucked and just owning the pens

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07-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #49
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I really am fundamentally questioning the forward alleged 'depth' we have. For me depth is not just 10-12 forwards scoring over 15 goals each during reg season.

For me real forward depth is:

Hawks not only having a first line of Toews-Kane-Buff, and Sharp-Hossa on second, but also getting key contributions in every single PO series from the likes of Versteeg and Ladd.. playing on their third line;

It's called ALL CYLINDERS firing at once. That means three forwards lines scoring in every single PO series, no matter who the opponent.

We dont have that and YET people are claiming we have forward DEPTH. That's not depth folks, that's flash and dazzle (what we have). Pretty useless in the POs.

I wanna get a re-definition of the term forward depth.

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07-28-2012, 11:52 AM
  #50
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I really am fundamentally questioning the forward alleged 'depth' we have. For me depth is not just 10-12 forwards scoring over 15 goals each during reg season.

For me real forward depth is:

Hawks not only having a first line of Toews-Kane-Buff, and Sharp-Hossa on second, but also getting key contributions in every single PO series from the likes of Versteeg and Ladd.. playing on their third line;

It's called ALL CYLINDERS firing at once. That means three forwards lines scoring in every single PO series, no matter who the opponent.

We dont have that and YET people are claiming we have forward DEPTH. That's not depth folks, that's flash and dazzle (what we have). Pretty useless in the POs.

I wanna get a re-definition of the term forward depth.
That doesn't really define forward depth IMO. Sometimes players don't show up that doesn't mean there wasn't depth.

Losing Jagr and JVR this offseason the forward depth took a hit and isn't really anything to brag about IMO they're relying on a lot of career years to build on their success. I think The Flyers will have a better two way forward core this season tho.

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