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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-27-2012, 11:54 PM
  #251
Estimated_Prophet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
On the gut level, do you know what I think of the bleating for a "one-year surgical tank"? It's an infant bawling because its diaper is wet and cold and full of unpleasant semisolids. Grow up!
Exactly.........you would think I would know better than to try and reason with a bawling infant.

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07-28-2012, 10:49 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post


1) Habs are a bad team, and are extremely unlikely to make the playoffs next year.

Last year, the Habs finished 15th in the conference, though some legitimately argue we were really ~12th placed on goals differential and bad luck in the shootouts. However, last year we had Cammmalleri, AK46, and Gill. Cammalleri has been replaced by the inferior Bourque. AK46 has been replaced by Brandon Prust, gving us more physicality but less goal scoring. Gill has been replaced by Bouillon, and is thus a step down. We're a lesser team.

2011-2012 was a year in which we ended 15th in spite of several things going extremely well for the Habs.
- We had the best PK in the league.
- Cole and Pacioretty had career seasons.
- Price was consistent.
- 3 of our 4 division rivals, Buffalo, Ottawa, and Toronto, were very weak. We could get points by beating up on the division.

Therefore, we are extremely unlikely to make 8th place. It's a remote possibility.
This is really just ridiculous and littered with half-truths and convenient omissions.

You lay out your rationale for the Canadiens being worse, and strangely, in doing so you cite the absence of two point producers who didn't produce points for the Canadiens and as a result got trade away.

You then cite this as the reason the Canadiens are a worse team this year than last, as if that somehow proved something.

There are several young players on the roster (Max Paccioretty, Lars Eller, P.K. Subban, David Desharnais) Somehow, in your quest to declare the team will somehow be worse this season, you've completely omitted the fact that young players usually progress from one season to the next. Max did last year, seems reasonable to think he will do so again this year, no? So did Desharnais... but in your world, he won't this season. Lars Eller is healthy this off-season and will be able to train and prepare for next year. Most observers would peg the odds of him taking a further step in his development as pretty solid. You don't mention it all. With Markov back and Kaberle on the roster, P.K. Subban has a ton less pressure and no longer needs to spread himself too thin. Yet, strangely, you don't mention this at all. Rene Bourque - who you simply dismissed as "inferior" will go to camp with the team and learn this system right out of the gate. It's quite possible that this three-time 20-goal scorer (who, by the way, had just two less goals last season than Michael Cammelleri) isn't quite the down-grade that you pretend he is. You also totally ignore the fact the Canadiens will no longer be pushed around routinely because from the start of last season to the start of this season they've added size and bulk in the form of Bourque, Prust and Armstrong to compliment Erik Cole, Travis Moen and Max Paccioretty. You also, rather conveniently failed to mention that one of the teams top goal scorers and powerplay contributors Brian Gionta was injured for the bulk of the season and the one player that totally drives their offense and their PP Andrei Markov is also back healthy after missing almost the entire season. Also, rather amazingly, you completely don't mention that the team, after having two coaches last season that were content to play for a 0-0 tie every game, have brought in a new coach and will tackle this season with a new system and a new philosophy. That's kind of a key thing to not even include in your theory about why this was a really bad team that wouldn't get better, no?

Your wildly fictionalized account of the Canadiens prospects this season might work had you posted this nonsense somewhere where people may not be aware of the major, key factors you were leaving out that would punch massive holes in your argument, but surely you didn't think people in a Montreal Canadiens forum would be ignorant enough not to know you were essentially pulling this out of your ass?


Last edited by FerrisRox: 07-28-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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Old
07-28-2012, 11:06 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
...random ownage...
This is why I refuse to take anyone seriously who predicts us to finish last in the conference and thinks it's only logical.

We're not going to win the President's Trophy, but as usual, we'll finish either 2nd or 3rd in the division (who's to say Ottawa's sudden resurgence wasn't a one-off too?), behind a Boston team that really hasn't changed much other than the goaltending situation (given, Thomas, that could be a big difference, but Rask has carried a season before so I'm not betting against them). Buffalo's the only question mark after their offseason moves, and improving young roster players. Toronto's more or less the same team with the same terrible defense and goaltending, though they've upgraded their forwards by adding JVR to the mix who I think will have a good season.

That's as much divisional analysis as I care to give now, but I believe we'll definitely be in the 5 to 11 range. The ends of that range are a bit unlikely, but crazier things have happened. I would bet on 7th to 9th.

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Old
07-28-2012, 11:15 AM
  #254
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I really love how many posters are getting all over the OP for being a loser and not being a true fan when Bergevin has given few indications that he isn't in fact executing exactly what the OP is suggesting.

He has not added much skill and goal scoring to the lineup which is absolutely what we need.
I do believe that he is trying to ice a competitive team and will definitely make a trade if it helps us long term. But MB, as of today, has basically set this team up in a wait and see formation and I have no doubt that he will be a seller at the first hint of not making the playoffs. And I really doubt that we will be buyers if we happen to over-achieve and find ourselves in a playoff spot.

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07-28-2012, 11:38 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is that Galchenyuk in your avatar?
Kill shot. Right in the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagielski41 View Post
you dont know him?
Duh. Are you 12?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
I think he means that the only reason we got the player from your avatar is because we finished so low in the standings...
Beat me to it. Why be so nice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagielski41 View Post
yeah i know what you mean, its just stupid to ask who it is.
Duh. Are you 12?

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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
We have better odds of having an injury free year with all the bad luck we had.
Bet you believe in astrology too. If you were in any way logical, which is rare it seems among youth these days, you might conclude that a history of injuries year after year means there is a high probability of the same problem next year. Due to factors that are real, not magik, as in your world it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
So if we tank, our injury problem will go away.

But that's not realistic, is it? The proper response should be.............Since we will have injuries every season, we should tank every season.

Bravo. I am giving you credit for creating one of the best T threads of all time. What is the over/under on how many pages you will generate with this thread?
Useless and illogical reply. Fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
On the gut level, do you know what I think of the bleating for a "one-year surgical tank"? It's an infant bawling because its diaper is wet and cold and full of unpleasant semisolids. Grow up!
Useless and angry reply. Fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
This is really just ridiculous and littered with half-truths and convenient omissions.

You lay out your rationale for the Canadiens being worse, and strangely, in doing so you cite the absence of two point producers who didn't produce points for the Canadiens and as a result got trade away.

You then cite this as the reason the Canadiens are a worse team this year than last, as if that somehow proved something.

There are several young players on the roster (Max Paccioretty, Lars Eller, P.K. Subban, David Desharnais) Somehow, in your quest to declare the team will somehow be worse this season, you've completely omitted the fact that young players usually progress from one season to the next. Max did last year, seems reasonable to think he will do so again this year, no? So did Desharnais... but in your world, he won't this season. Lars Eller is healthy this off-season and will be able to train and prepare for next year. Most observers would peg the odds of him taking a further step in his development as pretty solid. You don't mention it all. With Markov back and Kaberle on the roster, P.K. Subban has a ton less pressure and no longer needs to spread himself too thin. Yet, strangely, you don't mention this at all. Rene Bourque - who you simply dismissed as "inferior" will go to camp with the team and learn this system right out of the gate. It's quite possible that this three-time 20-goal scorer (who, by the way, had just two less goals last season than Michael Cammelleri) isn't quite the down-grade that you pretend he is. You also totally ignore the fact the Canadiens will no longer be pushed around routinely because from the start of last season to the start of this season they've added size and bulk in the form of Bourque, Prust and Armstrong to compliment Erik Cole, Travis Moen and Max Paccioretty. You also, rather conveniently failed to mention that one of the teams top goal scorers and powerplay contributors Brian Gionta was injured for the bulk of the season and the one player that totally drives their offense and their PP Andrei Markov is also back healthy after missing almost the entire season. Also, rather amazingly, you completely don't mention that the team, after having two coaches last season that were content to play for a 0-0 tie every game, have brought in a new coach and will tackle this season with a new system and a new philosophy. That's kind of a key thing to not even include in your theory about why this was a really bad team that wouldn't get better, no?

Your wildly fictionalized account of the Canadiens prospects this season might work had you posted this nonsense somewhere where people may not be aware of the major, key factors you were leaving out that would punch massive holes in your argument, but surely you didn't think people in a Montreal Canadiens forum would be ignorant enough not to know you were essentially pulling this out of your ass?
A massive amount of blather saying essentially things should be better next year IF, and IF, and IF, and IF. The OP is correct in assuming injuries to key players, and to bad or similar performances by some players. The evidence in actual results for all teams for the last 100 years is overwhelming. We are a bad team with too many bad players, and we have significant injuries every single year, except one freak year in the last 20. Why do you deny this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
I really love how many posters are getting all over the OP for being a loser and not being a true fan when Bergevin has given few indications that he isn't in fact executing exactly what the OP is suggesting.


He has not added much skill and goal scoring to the lineup which is absolutely what we need.
I do believe that he is trying to ice a competitive team and will definitely make a trade if it helps us long term. But MB, as of today, has basically set this team up in a wait and see formation and I have no doubt that he will be a seller at the first hint of not making the playoffs. And I really doubt that we will be buyers if we happen to over-achieve and find ourselves in a playoff spot.
Nailed it. It is completely naive to think MB and Molson and Therrien sit there talking about cups. They don't. You think these guys don't know exactly where this team is? They do. They talk about rebuild, which is what we have to do.


Last edited by bsl: 07-28-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old
07-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #256
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The fact is that we probably would be better off in the long run if we finished low again this year. Trying to 'tank' though isn't really a viable solution.

That being said, we should deal away some vets in the name of rebuilding. Regardless of where we finish, we should be trading for younger players now. If that means we fall or rise in the standings... doesn't really matter. You can't tell the players or coaches to lose, it doesn't work that way. But it does make sense to deal vets for picks and prospects when you're not a good team.

How good is our team? I don't think anyone really knows. We might be a last place team as we were last year or we might actually be good enough to make the playoffs. We're definitely not contenders though and we've got some vets that we could get returns on. I don't see anything wrong with making long term moves to help make us better for the future. We've got some good young players developing now and some good (even great) prospects to build with. If we had another killer year at the draft table we'd be in great shape going forward.

Whatever happens is going to happen but I think we should trade some of our vets for prospects. In the long run we'd be better off. It's about winning cups, not first or 2nd round exits. That's what we should be building for.

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Old
07-28-2012, 11:59 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
A massive amount of blather saying essentially things should be better next year IF, and IF, and IF, and IF. The OP is correct in assuming injuries to key players, and to bad or similar performances by some players. The evidence in actual results for all teams for the last 100 years is overwhelming. We are a bad team with too many bad players, and we have significant injuries every single year, except one freak year in the last 20. Why do you deny this?
Uh... what the hell are you talking about? Did you even read my post of "massive blather?" At no point did I deny anything about injuries, and for good reason, because at no point in the post I was responding to were injuries even discussed.

Here's a helpful tip for discussion boards: Before you hit reply, it's generally a good idea to *actually read the post you are responding to.* If you do that, you greatly improve the odds of having a clue what you are talking about.

Better luck next time.

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Old
07-28-2012, 01:20 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The fact is that we probably would be better off in the long run if we finished low again this year. Trying to 'tank' though isn't really a viable solution.

That being said, we should deal away some vets in the name of rebuilding. Regardless of where we finish, we should be trading for younger players now. If that means we fall or rise in the standings... doesn't really matter. You can't tell the players or coaches to lose, it doesn't work that way. But it does make sense to deal vets for picks and prospects when you're not a good team.

How good is our team? I don't think anyone really knows. We might be a last place team as we were last year or we might actually be good enough to make the playoffs. We're definitely not contenders though and we've got some vets that we could get returns on. I don't see anything wrong with making long term moves to help make us better for the future. We've got some good young players developing now and some good (even great) prospects to build with. If we had another killer year at the draft table we'd be in great shape going forward.

Whatever happens is going to happen but I think we should trade some of our vets for prospects. In the long run we'd be better off. It's about winning cups, not first or 2nd round exits. That's what we should be building for.
This is a better explanation of what we should be trying to do.

If the NHL has a lockout/strike for half a season there's a good chance Galchenyuk, Leblanc and Geoffrion will be ready for top 9 duty on this team. This will make a bunch of veterans expendable and if we can trade our forwards for an NHL-ready prospect d-man we can also trade away a veteran d-man or two.

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07-28-2012, 01:26 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
This is a better explanation of what we should be trying to do.

If the NHL has a lockout/strike for half a season there's a good chance Galchenyuk, Leblanc and Geoffrion will be ready for top 9 duty on this team. This will make a bunch of veterans expendable and if we can trade our forwards for an NHL-ready prospect d-man we can also trade away a veteran d-man or two.
You're a bit optimistic. I don't think Geoffrion can replace any of the forwards you'd trade. You may be expecting too much from Leblanc and Galchenyuk may not be ready in a year. The Habs don't have any veteran Dmen except Markov, Kaberle, and Gorges and of those I'd spare only Kaberle.

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Old
07-28-2012, 03:35 PM
  #260
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Baby. Bath water.

Nuff said.

/thread

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Old
07-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #261
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Baby. Bath water.

Nuff said.

/thread
You're one of the sharpest posters on the board. When I saw your name on the front page as the last poster I was excited to see what you had written.

I was then disappointed after clicking. You can do better.


Last edited by DAChampion: 07-28-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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Old
07-28-2012, 04:01 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
I really love how many posters are getting all over the OP for being a loser and not being a true fan when Bergevin has given few indications that he isn't in fact executing exactly what the OP is suggesting.

He has not added much skill and goal scoring to the lineup which is absolutely what we need.
I do believe that he is trying to ice a competitive team and will definitely make a trade if it helps us long term. But MB, as of today, has basically set this team up in a wait and see formation and I have no doubt that he will be a seller at the first hint of not making the playoffs. And I really doubt that we will be buyers if we happen to over-achieve and find ourselves in a playoff spot.
Thank you HabsSlappy,

It's good to know that there are rational posters on these boards who are capable or recognizing what Marc Bergevin is both doing and not doing. It gets frustrating to read posts from Teufelsdreck and FerrisRox who discuss nothing but dirty diapers and ass.

If Bergevin had signed Alexander Semin and traded for a defensive defenseman, I would be in line with most fans and predicting a 4th-8th place finish. However, it is clear we are full of holes, and I simply don't get why people choose to have a rose-colored version of reality rather than a true-color version of reality. We have a major hole in the top-6 and are a one-line offense. Our defense is missing a shutdown defenseman, and is one injury away from catastrophic collapse. It doesn't look good.

Markov and Gionta will be back next year, but new injuries will take their place. We have this discussion every single summer. Last summer I said Markov and Gorges wouldn't be able to replace Hamrlik and Wisniewski because there would be new injuries. People flamed me. It's the same argument here every summer. Some fans say "next year when there are no injuries". I don't get that wishful thinking.

For me, following sports is about entertainment. I get a lot of satisfaction out of trying to understand what's going on. Bergevin has shown himself to be a long-term strategist and I want to see where it's going. He's not a reactive GM with a winner's mentality who wants to win every year, like Mike Millbury. He is thinking long-term. It's exciting and interesting.

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Old
07-28-2012, 04:03 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Kill shot. Right in the head.



Duh. Are you 12?



Beat me to it. Why be so nice?



Duh. Are you 12?



Bet you believe in astrology too. If you were in any way logical, which is rare it seems among youth these days, you might conclude that a history of injuries year after year means there is a high probability of the same problem next year. Due to factors that are real, not magik, as in your world it seems.



Useless and illogical reply. Fail.



Useless and angry reply. Fail.



A massive amount of blather saying essentially things should be better next year IF, and IF, and IF, and IF. The OP is correct in assuming injuries to key players, and to bad or similar performances by some players. The evidence in actual results for all teams for the last 100 years is overwhelming. We are a bad team with too many bad players, and we have significant injuries every single year, except one freak year in the last 20. Why do you deny this?



Nailed it. It is completely naive to think MB and Molson and Therrien sit there talking about cups. They don't. You think these guys don't know exactly where this team is? They do. They talk about rebuild, which is what we have to do.
Excellent post.

You're right about Molson, Therrien, and Bergevin. These guys are thinking long-term. There's no doubt about it.

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07-28-2012, 04:40 PM
  #264
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FerrisRox came in guns blazing with a lot of anger. However, he made a lot of good points, so I'm going to try and respond in a calm and rational manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You lay out your rationale for the Canadiens being worse, and strangely, in doing so you cite the absence of two point producers who didn't produce points for the Canadiens and as a result got trade away.
???

Kostitsyn and Cammalleri did produce points.

Cammalleri had 22 points in 38 games, a 47 point per 82 game clip which is good 2nd line production. Andrei Kostitsyn had 24 points in 53 games, a 37 point pace which is good 3rd line production, and indeed he was producing nicely on the Eller line.

They got traded because the team was offered good returns for them. I would make that Cammalleri trade in any year when the Habs are out of a playoff spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You then cite this as the reason the Canadiens are a worse team this year than last, as if that somehow proved something.
It is a good reason yes. Cammalleri and Kostitsyn can be replaced, but not trivially. They gave decent production, Cammalleri sometimes gave great production. It's not obvious we'll replace them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
There are several young players on the roster (Max Paccioretty, Lars Eller, P.K. Subban, David Desharnais) Somehow, in your quest to declare the team will somehow be worse this season, you've completely omitted the fact that young players usually progress from one season to the next. Max did last year, seems reasonable to think he will do so again this year, no? So did Desharnais... but in your world, he won't this season. Lars Eller is healthy this off-season and will be able to train and prepare for next year. Most observers would peg the odds of him taking a further step in his development as pretty solid. You don't mention it all. With Markov back and Kaberle on the roster, P.K. Subban has a ton less pressure and no longer needs to spread himself too thin. Yet, strangely, you don't mention this at all.
I hope Lars Eller improves. We'll see.

I don't expect Desharnais and Pacioretty to improve. They did fabulously last year, but they did so because they were given privileged minutes. They got offensive zone starts and a lot of PP time and they produced in that capacity, but that is not a capacity that can be maintained long-term, it's not sustainable without cost. The ugly side of that imbalanced production is that we saw a line of Plekanec-Staubitz-White. Cole and Pacioretty's production came at the expense of the production of Plekanec (and Eller).

If Plekanec and Eller do better next year it will be because they will get a more offensive role. If they get a more offensive role than the Desharnais line will have a less offensive role, since it's a zero-sum game.

It's hard to project PK Subban. Last year people were saying the same thing, that he was going to improve.

Habs fans always talk about young players improving. I heard the same song about Christopher Higgins when he potted 27 goals -- he would be a consistent 30 goal scorer. See also Komisarek, SK74, AK47, Grabovski, Chipchura, Latendresse, etc. It's irrational to expect all of your youth to improve.

Meanwhile, Ottawa has Kyle Turris; Toronto has JVR, Colborne, Franson, and Kadri; Boston has Seguin and Hamilton; and Buffalo has Grigorenko and Hodgson. Montreal is not the only team in the division with young players who might improve. Quite frankly, we don't even have the best batch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Rene Bourque - who you simply dismissed as "inferior" will go to camp with the team and learn this system right out of the gate. It's quite possible that this three-time 20-goal scorer (who, by the way, had just two less goals last season than Michael Cammelleri) isn't quite the down-grade that you pretend he is.
I addressed Bourque in post #186.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion, post#186
I have not addressed Bourque. I think your hope is that Bourque can bounce back to being a 25-25 player. My view of Bourque? He was fanning on beautiful passes from Eller in so many games last season. If that's permanent, he's done. However, if it's not, then he could bounce back... but he'll never be a 25-25 player from the third line. If he is to reach those numbers again it will be with top-6 minutes and PP time. At that point however, he will be taking ice time away from someone who should be in the top-6, and reducing their numbers. For example, if Pacioretty gets injured, we might lose his 35 goals but gain 25 goals from Bourque. Bourque would have "bounced back", but it's a net loss from the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You also totally ignore the fact the Canadiens will no longer be pushed around routinely because from the start of last season to the start of this season they've added size and bulk in the form of Bourque, Prust and Armstrong to compliment Erik Cole, Travis Moen and Max Paccioretty.
We already had Bourque. I don't expect Prust and Armstrong to provide more physicality than Gill and Staubitz. Gill didn't come off as physical but he would take up physical space in scrums to prevent smaller Habs players from being knocked around. For example he would go hug Chara and neutralize him in scrums. Staubitz... enough sad.

One thing that has surprised me from this thread is the number of fans who have said "Colby Armstrong!!!" as a reason the Habs will improve next year. He's a non-factor in my projections. However I hope you're right that Armstrong can become a potent and positive force for the Habs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You also, rather conveniently failed to mention that one of the teams top goal scorers and powerplay contributors Brian Gionta was injured for the bulk of the season and the one player that totally drives their offense and their PP Andrei Markov is also back healthy after missing almost the entire season.
I think bsl already told you what you needed to be told about injuries. Namely, that there are likely to be new injuries every year.

2008-09: Lang, Latendresse, Koivu, Higgins, Tanguay, Schneider, Komisarek
2009-2010: Markov, Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Gionta
2010-2011: Markov, Gorges, Pacioretty, Cammalleri
2011-2012: Markov, Gionta, Gomez, Moen

Last year wasn't even particularly bad for injuries in Habsland. It was average.

Every single summer some fans say "next year when we have no injuries". I used to be among those fans, but I have learned from experience that this argument is a nonstarter because there are new injuries every year. We will regain Markov and Gionta, that I'm ~75% sure of. But what if we lose Price and Plekanec? Emelin and Subban? We'll be back to square one.

Our defense is pretty bad. It's one injury away from total disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Also, rather amazingly, you completely don't mention that the team, after having two coaches last season that were content to play for a 0-0 tie every game, have brought in a new coach and will tackle this season with a new system and a new philosophy. That's kind of a key thing to not even include in your theory about why this was a really bad team that wouldn't get better, no?
Jacques Martin took a bad Habs team to 8th and 6th place in the Eastern Conference. He then took us to the conference finals one year, and to a game 7 overtime against the eventual champions the next. He's a good coach. Therrien might be a better coach but it's not a given.

If Therrien is equally good to Martin, we will be lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Your wildly fictionalized account of the Canadiens prospects this season might work had you posted this nonsense somewhere where people may not be aware of the major, key factors you were leaving out that would punch massive holes in your argument, but surely you didn't think people in a Montreal Canadiens forum would be ignorant enough not to know you were essentially pulling this out of your ass?
Chill.


Last edited by DAChampion: 07-28-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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07-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #265
VL55
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How do you even make a 1-year surgical tank? Tanking is like losing control of your car and going into a skid. Who knows when you'll recover.

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07-28-2012, 05:22 PM
  #266
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How do you even make a 1-year surgical tank? Tanking is like losing control of your car and going into a skid. Who knows when you'll recover.
It's not really a 1-year tank. It's really a 2-year tank because we already tanked in 2011-2012.

I think one of the major questions is how long it takes before the Habs again become one of the 4 best teams in the eastern conference and compete for the cup -- what I consider the goal.

One can't be sure. We don't know how good Galchenyuk, Colberg, Leblanc, Beaulieu and Tiinordi are going to be, and we don't know how Bergevin will do on the UFA market when he decides he wants to improve the Habs. But if we clear our cap space this year the best we can, and develop our youth properly, I think we could be in the 2013-2014 playoff picture and even the 2014-2015 contender picture.

Two things from my OP. I say that we have a good stable of support coming from Hamilton in 1 or 2 years. I also say that our core is not good enough now but does make up a good fraction of a good core.

Quote:
2012-2013 may represent the best Hamilton Bulldogs team since I've heard of the Hamilton Bulldogs. Pateryn, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Holland, Gallagher, Quailer, Bournival, hopefully Leblanc and Palushaj... wow I'm stoked. This team isn't going to win us a cup this year. However, it's very good. It can be the youth corps of a team that wins the cup in 2015. Once you add Galchenyuk, Colberg, and whoever we draft next year, it looks like the veteran core of a team that competes for the cup every year in the period 2015-2020.
Quote:
The current core of the team is Price, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Markov, Gorges, Cole, Desharnais. That core is not good enough to win championships. It is inferior to the cores of Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York, Los Angeles, and Vancouver -- nobody of sound mind can disagree with that. However, it's not ridiculously far off. Add in Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, and Tinordi, get experience for Eller, Desharnais, and Emelin, rock the 2013 UFA class, and suddenly the core becomes elite.

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07-28-2012, 05:37 PM
  #267
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I truely believe that a reconstruction can be done quickly, based on what we have already. We are a Winger away from a true 1st line (Galchenyuk+Pacioretty+ ???) and we have very solid defensive prospect that could fill our bottom 4 (Gorges, Tinordi, Beaulieu and Emelin could be a EXCELLENT bottom 4). We just have to find a top 2 Two-way defenseman to play with Subban. In the net, we have a elite goaler in Price. From our prospect pool and current team, we have a lot of young players who can fill the second and third line (Leblanc, Eller, Gallagher, Collberg, Desharnais, Hudon, Bozon) and they have talent and potential.

If we make the playoff, we would have 1 first round (mid-round) and 3 second rounds. With the talent present in the 2013 draft, we could find a top line winger in 1st round (Erne, Drouin, Mantha, Sorensen, Duclair) and try for long shot (Subban) and depth player with our 3 second round picks.

If we are out of the playoff picture at the trade deadline, then trade away some of our vets for top60 picks.

And don't forget that we can trade our first 4 picks for a top 10 pick. Then we could land a elite player like Shinkaruk or Lazar.

I'm very looking foward to see what MB will do with this team. Look like we're gonna have a very exciting team in a couple of year.

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07-28-2012, 05:43 PM
  #268
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I'm in favor of a tank that goes beyond 1-2 years. And what I mean by tank is to rid us of the big contracts like Gomez, Kaberle...to a lesser extent Gio, Pleks, Bourque, Markov. Let the youngns play and grab some picks and/or prospects and keep it moving.

Lets do this right....so we don't have to give 38 year olds 4 year deals.

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07-28-2012, 06:03 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I'm in favor of a tank that goes beyond 1-2 years. And what I mean by tank is to rid us of the big contracts like Gomez, Kaberle...to a lesser extent Gio, Pleks, Bourque, Markov. Let the youngns play and grab some picks and/or prospects and keep it moving.

Lets do this right....so we don't have to give 38 year olds 4 year deals.
Thats not how you tank... To tank you need to purposely weaken the team in order to finish low in the standings&get a high pick. Trading Plekanec, Markov and Gionta accomplishes that if you don't sign equivalent players to replace them. However trading Kaberle, Bourque, Gomez and other plugs won't change a thing. Gomez could suddenly disappear in a space time anomaly and the team wouldn't be worse for it.

Lets say Bergevin is truly intent on tanking (say Timmins told him MacKinnon is the next Lemieux or Seth Jones the next Bobby Orr or something) then he would not only trade depth and plugs, he'd trade key players and leaders like Plekanec, Gorges (one year younger than Plekanec who is an old fart according to some people here), Cole, Desharnais... Basically everyone over 25 and that is useful could risk being traded. Needless to be said the players would not take kindly to this and neither would season ticket owners.

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07-28-2012, 06:23 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
On the gut level, do you know what I think of the bleating for a "one-year surgical tank"? It's an infant bawling because its diaper is wet and cold and full of unpleasant semisolids. Grow up!
OMG someone has a different opinion than yours, how crazy.

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07-28-2012, 07:02 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by VL55 View Post
How do you even make a 1-year surgical tank? Tanking is like losing control of your car and going into a skid. Who knows when you'll recover.
This would be similar to what the Panthers did and guess what, Bergevin worked under Tallon when they both were in Chicago.

The Panther's ended up drafting 3rd overall twice, plus they also traded for two more 1st round picks, Bjugstad and Howden.

The year after the tank, you can go out and get a few top UFA's.

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07-28-2012, 07:17 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
This would be similar to what the Panthers did and guess what, Bergevin worked under Tallon when they both were in Chicago.

The Panther's ended up drafting 3rd overall twice, plus they also traded for two more 1st round picks, Bjugstad and Howden.

The year after the tank, you can go out and get a few top UFA's.
OMG they have lost it Batman !!! Comparing the Habs to Florida !!!

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07-28-2012, 08:30 PM
  #273
RC51
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You can argue the habs are still the worst team in the NHL.
You can argue the habs in any direction.
You have a right to think whatever you like and I have the right to think you are WRONG.
I also have the right NOT to explain myself to you or anybody else for thinking you are WRONG.
Habs will ice a better team next year and THAT is what I think.

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07-28-2012, 08:39 PM
  #274
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
You can argue the habs are still the worst team in the NHL.
You can argue the habs in any direction.
You have a right to think whatever you like and I have the right to think you are WRONG.
I also have the right NOT to explain myself to you or anybody else for thinking you are WRONG.
Habs will ice a better team next year and THAT is what I think.
Last season was a blip on the radar nothing more. Thank god we finished as bad as possible, in large part due to Goat pressing the panic button too soon. We got rid of all the bad apples besides Gomez, time to make some noise.

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07-28-2012, 09:20 PM
  #275
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I'm in favor of a tank that goes beyond 1-2 years. And what I mean by tank is to rid us of the big contracts like Gomez, Kaberle...to a lesser extent Gio, Pleks, Bourque, Markov. Let the youngns play and grab some picks and/or prospects and keep it moving.

Lets do this right....so we don't have to give 38 year olds 4 year deals.
That is not tanking. Its called asset management.

Believe it or not, there are GMs in this League who can actually make trades that do not saddle a team with the likes of Kaberle.

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