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Old
07-28-2012, 11:15 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Trolling?? WTF? There can be a perfectly good argument about player values without anyone trolling, even with big disagreements. The closest thing to trolling here is calling Mesz+Vor+1st a spectacular overpayment, that's just pure hyperbole.
How about Fowler + Sbisa + 1st for Voracek?

A young, emerging 1st line/pairing skater + a young, two-way top 4 defenseman, + 1st.

Sound like spectacular overpayment to you?

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I'm confused, did you mean the last part the otherway around or am I missing something? That doesn't make sense.
Yes, he meant it the other way.

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Yes and Ducks fans strongly disagreed. What's your point?
And they're wrong.

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Ducks don't have to trade Ryan, they might trade him if the right deal comes around. Voracek+Meszaros+1st is not one of those.
We understand that. It doesn't change the fact that Voracek + Meszaros + 1st is a pretty big overpayment.

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07-28-2012, 11:23 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How about Fowler + Sbisa + 1st for Voracek?

A young, emerging 1st line/pairing skater + a young, two-way top 4 defenseman, + 1st.

Sound like spectacular overpayment to you?
Now you're just being juvenile. Don't need to resort to dramatic hyperboles all the time.

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And they're wrong.
Again, that's only an opinion. Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We understand that. It doesn't change the fact that Voracek + Meszaros + 1st is a pretty big overpayment.
I see progress here Chris, well done! You went from spectacular overpayment to pretty big overpayment.

But like I said, we agree to disagree. I think we can all agree that if Flyers wanted Ryan, that package wouldn't do it.

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07-28-2012, 11:28 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I see progress here Chris, well done! You went from spectacular overpayment to pretty big overpayment.
I can't keep using the same adjective. It gets old and makes me feel awkward.

The spirit remains the same.

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But like I said, we agree to disagree. I think we can all agree that if Flyers wanted Ryan, that package wouldn't do it.
Which is pretty dumb on the Ducks' part if they're looking to rebuild on the fly.

They a winger back who is younger and almost of Ryan's caliber. They're gifted a young top 4 defenseman. On top of that they get a 1st.

All for a guy who seems distressed to be there and will almost assuredly be leaving when his contract is up.

Seems like poor asset management on the Ducks' part for not taking an offer that makes them better. It also seems like poor asset management by the Flyers if they really did offer that package.

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07-28-2012, 11:32 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Which is pretty dumb on the Ducks' part if they're looking to rebuild on the fly.
Why on earth would Ducks start this "rebuild on the fly" by trading a young 30-35g winger in Ryan for worse winger?? Honestly, can't you really understand what the Ducks need at the moment??

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07-28-2012, 11:36 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Why on earth would Ducks start this "rebuild on the fly" by trading a young 30-35g winger in Ryan for worse winger?? Honestly, can't you really understand what the Ducks need at the moment??
That's fine, but I was under the impression that you guys were "rebuilding on the fly."

I thought someone mentioned that somewhere. If not then I apologize. I was mistaken.

That's fine then. If it doesn't fix your need then it doesn't fix your need.

It doesn't change how drastic an overpayment that package is.

(This time I used the adjective "drastic.")

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07-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That's fine, but I was under the impression that you guys were "rebuilding on the fly."
You didn''t answer my first question. Even if Ducks were on "rebuilding on the fly", why on earth would they move Ryan for a worse winger? Ducks don't need Meszaros (especially with his contract) and your 1st is most likely 20-30th overall.

It simply doesn't make any sense.

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It doesn't change how drastic an overpayment that package is.
I'm tired of this. To me it's not fair value. You disagree and we move on.

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07-28-2012, 02:04 PM
  #232
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Pepper, essentially you are arguing how many >>>>s should separate Ryan and Voracek.

Flyers fans: Ryan >> Voracek
Pepper: No! Ryan >>>> Voracek


All we are saying is that Ryan isn't worth adding Meszaroa and a 1st round pick to Voracek. You can disagree, but when you come to the Flyers bard to argue something of such little substance, then I consider it trolling.

It would be one thing if we were calling Voracek equal to Ryan and you were trying to set the record straight, but you are actually arguing something of no substance.

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07-28-2012, 03:38 PM
  #233
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Considering what Nash was just traded for, I don't understand how Mez+Voracek+1st could be seen as anything other than an overpayment, let alone fair value.

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07-28-2012, 05:05 PM
  #234
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Carter scored 29/46/33/36 in four years.

Traded for a still raw Voracek, high 1st and 3rd.

Somehow a consistent 30 goal scorer in Ryan is worth more than a less raw Voracek, Mez, Read (20+goals), and a late 1st / Laughton in a stacked draft.

Seems close to fair.

I think this is more about team needs. ANA needs a center and should probably, if I were the GM, try to hold my bait (Ryan) until I got one.


Last edited by Flyotes: 07-28-2012 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Put Laughton's name on the wrong line. Ack.
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07-28-2012, 06:12 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Pepper, essentially you are arguing how many >>>>s should separate Ryan and Voracek.

Flyers fans: Ryan >> Voracek
Pepper: No! Ryan >>>> Voracek


All we are saying is that Ryan isn't worth adding Meszaroa and a 1st round pick to Voracek. You can disagree, but when you come to the Flyers bard to argue something of such little substance, then I consider it trolling.

It would be one thing if we were calling Voracek equal to Ryan and you were trying to set the record straight, but you are actually arguing something of no substance.
Well, you can consider it whatever you like, I couldn't care less. There is just as much/little substance from both sides, don't you dare to present Flyers as some sort of unbiased, rational side because you're not that (because we all FANS).

And I've never said Ryan >>>> Voracek, in fact I've never given any number of > in Ryan vs. Voracek.

Look, Ducks fans have much less interest to trade Ryan than Flyers fans have. This is all about some people thinking that the Cherry Hill native has to be a Flyer. You don't want to pay the price Ducks want? That's 100% fine. Let's leave it at that. We don't want to trade Ryan in the first place.

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07-28-2012, 06:18 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by DickTony View Post
Considering what Nash was just traded for, I don't understand how Mez+Voracek+1st could be seen as anything other than an overpayment, let alone fair value.
Well then you probably don't understand that Nash had a limited NTC, while Ryan hasn't.

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07-28-2012, 07:08 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Well then you probably don't understand that Nash had a limited NTC, while Ryan hasn't.
I understand that just fine, thanks.

I also understand that his value has a few more ">>>" than Ryan's, that Ryan has already publicly stated he wants out, and that expecting more than a 1st round pick, 2nd pairing defenseman and recently resigned top 6 winger for a player who has only once (barely) eclipsed 70 points (and followed that up with a subpar year) is, in my opinion, quite asinine.

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07-28-2012, 07:19 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Well, you can consider it whatever you like, I couldn't care less. There is just as much/little substance from both sides, don't you dare to present Flyers as some sort of unbiased, rational side because you're not that (because we all FANS).

And I've never said Ryan >>>> Voracek, in fact I've never given any number of > in Ryan vs. Voracek.

Look, Ducks fans have much less interest to trade Ryan than Flyers fans have. This is all about some people thinking that the Cherry Hill native has to be a Flyer. You don't want to pay the price Ducks want? That's 100% fine. Let's leave it at that. We don't want to trade Ryan in the first place.
I think its more about ducks fans coming to our board to tell us how much it will cost to get Ryan over and over and over again. And what they keep asking for is untouchable assets not in the eyes of the fans but in the eyes of the GM of the team. So when we offer something else ducks fans balk. Which is fine you have your needs and giving up Ryan for anything less would be foolish. Most Flyers fans think it would be nice to have Ryan but its not make or break. The reason we are involved at all is because Ryan himself brought us up himself. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think most flyers fans would rather just move on and wait until Ryan inevitably hits ufa and we will get him then. Your fans may have much less interest in trading Ryan but the cost to acquire him is so far apart from fans perspectives on both sides I think it would be best to just leave it be and see what happens which most likely will be nothing

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07-28-2012, 07:24 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by DickTony View Post
I understand that just fine, thanks.

I also understand that his value has a few more ">>>" than Ryan's, that Ryan has already publicly stated he wants out, and that expecting more than a 1st round pick, 2nd pairing defenseman and recently resigned top 6 winger for a player who has only once (barely) eclipsed 70 points (and followed that up with a subpar year) is, in my opinion, quite asinine.

Why Nash has few more >>>s?

Where/when has Ryan stated publicly he wants out? Direct quote please.

Why should Ducks accept a late 1st rounder, overpaid (in terms of actual salary) 3rd-4th d-man with injury issues and a winger who has cracked 50p once and whose best season was 2 years ago for Ryan?

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07-28-2012, 07:29 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I think its more about ducks fans coming to our board to tell us how much it will cost to get Ryan over and over and over again.
What's the problem with that? You want to hold your own circle-jerk without any outside opinions? You just don't like with Ducks fans disagreeing with your valuations of Ryan and Voracek?

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And what they keep asking for is untouchable assets not in the eyes of the fans but in the eyes of the GM of the team.
Really? You have a direct quote of Holmgren saying that?

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Like I said earlier in the thread, I think most flyers fans would rather just move on and wait until Ryan inevitably hits ufa and we will get him then.
No problem with that.

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Your fans may have much less interest in trading Ryan but the cost to acquire him is so far apart from fans perspectives on both sides I think it would be best to just leave it be and see what happens which most likely will be nothing
Wise words indeed. We should just let this go.

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07-28-2012, 07:54 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What's the problem with that? You want to hold your own circle-jerk without any outside opinions? You just don't like with Ducks fans disagreeing with your valuations of Ryan and Voracek?



Really? You have a direct quote of Holmgren saying that?



No problem with that.



Wise words indeed. We should just let this go.
My problem with that is that its been stated 100 times over already bickering back and forth about it goes no where anyway. As far as Voracek vs Ryan I think both fanbases overrate their own players, that being said I believe this year will he very telling on just how close or far Voracek is, and with my Orange colored glasses I tend to think he's a lot closer than ANH fans want to admit.


I'm on my phone so no I don't have a direct quote of holmgren saying that. Nor do I think I could find one if I looked. However what I do know is that the people that we get our info from on the wheelings and dealings behind closed doors have stated many times that either Couturier and schenn are both non starters for anyone. Weber Ryan Nash what have you. This is demonstrated multiple times first by acquiring Luke schenn, 2nd by not acquiring Nash, 3rd ny not moving either for Weber and last by a trade not already made for Ryan where one of Couturier or schenn is involved.

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07-28-2012, 08:58 PM
  #242
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This just seems like from Ducks fans

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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Where/when has Ryan stated publicly he wants out? Direct quote please.
"Randy Miller
@RandyJMiller


Quote:
I spoke to #Ducks Bobby Ryan today and he wants to be traded, preferably to #Flyers."
-Courier Post Flyers beat writer, 6/12/12

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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post

Really? You have a direct quote of Holmgren saying that?
Quote:
It's believed both Schenn and Couturier are considered "untouchable" by the Flyers' management brass, and instead a source told TFP the Flyers are trying to center a package on forward Matt Read.
-via TheFourthPeriod, pertaining to a Nash trade.
---as well as many other writers, bloggers, reporters, etc. who can use their brain and don't require a direct quote. no Couts or Schenn for Nash, Weber, or Ryan = un-freakin-touchable.

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07-28-2012, 11:52 PM
  #243
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Supposedly there was an offer on the table for Ryan from one of the Ducks posters. He has a source close to the team he said, and the Mods seem to trust it enough to keep it up. The offer was from Boston, but it was Krecji+Caron+1st for Ryan. That is big time over payment. Both players are realistically the same point producers, one being a center and one being a winger. They both will put in 60-70 points per year, so that trade would make sense if it was something like Krecji+Caron+3rd for Ryan+2nd or 3rd. Ryan is being over valued big time anymore.

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07-28-2012, 11:53 PM
  #244
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Holy crap ^ I hope that's not the case but since it'd make Boston worse I don't think it'd bother me too much...

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07-29-2012, 01:53 AM
  #245
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Lol gotta love these Ducks fans putting their head in the ground.

Ryan clearly came out and said he wants to be traded. Hell he even named the flyers as the team he wants to go to lol

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07-29-2012, 04:45 AM
  #246
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I think everything has been said. We will see what happens.

All the best to Flyers & their fans.

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07-29-2012, 11:43 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Lol gotta love these Ducks fans putting their head in the ground.

Ryan clearly came out and said he wants to be traded. Hell he even named the flyers as the team he wants to go to lol
In fairness, that's a bit of an exaggeration. He said he was sick of the team putting him on the block, and that the Ducks had mentioned the Flyers and other teams interested. He was frustrated and said something like 'I don't know who all the teams are, but they said the Flyers so fine, trade me there, just so I don't have to be involved in trade rumours.'

I'm sure he would like to play at home, but his comments were aimed at Murray, saying 'crap or get off the pot. Either trade me or stop shopping me every team losing streak/trade deadline/draft/summer.'

I'd like to see him as a Flyer, but not at the prices that are being rumoured. The Ducks should really hold on to him anyway, he's controllable, reasonably paid and helps their team. Unless there is a reason he needs to go, in which case, why do we want him, birthplace aside?

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07-30-2012, 12:00 AM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Supposedly there was an offer on the table for Ryan from one of the Ducks posters. He has a source close to the team he said, and the Mods seem to trust it enough to keep it up. The offer was from Boston, but it was Krecji+Caron+1st for Ryan. That is big time over payment. Both players are realistically the same point producers, one being a center and one being a winger. They both will put in 60-70 points per year, so that trade would make sense if it was something like Krecji+Caron+3rd for Ryan+2nd or 3rd. Ryan is being over valued big time anymore.
Love that Philadelphian use of "anymore."

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08-02-2012, 11:44 PM
  #249
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everyone should check this radio interview out. a philadelphia blog/radio actually got bobby ryan on air for some questions for about an hour today. they respected him and avoided the obvious questions about him to philly and such but it personally was really neat to hear about his thoughts on a lot of things and his off season routines.

everyone points out the one phrase he says about coming into next season in this interview, "pending i'm still a duck"

I can't post the link for some reason but just google "the orange update 8/02"

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08-03-2012, 12:31 AM
  #250
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people have some insanely low offers they expect Anaheim to take. Anaheim is not trading Fowler and Sbisa for Vora and our 1st... Not in a million years.

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