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How much trust do you have in Ian Cole?

View Poll Results: How much trust do you have in Ian Cole?
Trust Cole on 1st pairing 11 15.07%
Trust Cole on 2nd pairing 24 32.88%
Trust Cole on 3rd pairing 32 43.84%
Trust Cole as the 7th d-man 6 8.22%
Trust Cole only as minor league depth 0 0%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-28-2012, 09:02 PM
  #76
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
Assuming that by "ready" you mean ready to face the opposition's best in the playoffs then no, I don't think Cole will be ready for that kind of responsibility and think it's ludicrous to think so.

You have posted a number of times in this thread but haven't voted in the poll yet. Why don't you just vote?
Because I don't completely agree with the options. I think he is capable of playing on the first pairing, but I don't think he should play 20+ minutes. He should be getting 18-19 minutes just like Colaiacovo got. If he is with Pietrangelo, I think he will be just fine on the top pairing.

So you think it is ludicrous to think in July that Cole won't be ready for the top pairing in April? If Pietrangelo doesn't have a torn MCL, Cole will be just fine with him. You can't just gloss over the fact that Pietrangelo wasn't close to being his normal self.

If you are so against Cole, then what are you plans for the defense? I didn't see where it was said that Shattenkirk will be full-time with Pietrangelo, and I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm not buying it happening at all. That would make it a disaster for the other pairings. Jackman needs someone like Shattenkirk to be successful, and that means he would have to be with Russell. Russell shouldn't be in our top 4, and Russell or Jackman have not proven that they are capable of play on their off-side.


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07-29-2012, 01:12 AM
  #77
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Because I don't completely agree with the options. I think he is capable of playing on the first pairing, but I don't think he should play 20+ minutes. He should be getting 18-19 minutes just like Colaiacovo got. If he is with Pietrangelo, I think he will be just fine on the top pairing.

So you think it is ludicrous to think in July that Cole won't be ready for the top pairing in April? If Pietrangelo doesn't have a torn MCL, Cole will be just fine with him. You can't just gloss over the fact that Pietrangelo wasn't close to being his normal self.

If you are so against Cole, then what are you plans for the defense? I didn't see where it was said that Shattenkirk will be full-time with Pietrangelo, and I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm not buying it happening at all. That would make it a disaster for the other pairings. Jackman needs someone like Shattenkirk to be successful, and that means he would have to be with Russell. Russell shouldn't be in our top 4, and Russell or Jackman have not proven that they are capable of play on their off-side.
You can still vote on the poll. The poll asks what pairing you would trust him on, not how many minutes he should get. Regardless if it's 19 or 24, first pairing is still first pairing. If he's on it, he'll be out there against top lines since Pietrangelo will be.

I really don't see any pairings the Blues could put together that I would be completely comfortable with because if there's injuries it will not be good. I hope they will still add a defenseman either before the season or not long afterwards because the current defensive group still is just not good enough to win a cup.

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07-29-2012, 05:35 PM
  #78
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You can still vote on the poll. The poll asks what pairing you would trust him on, not how many minutes he should get. Regardless if it's 19 or 24, first pairing is still first pairing. If he's on it, he'll be out there against top lines since Pietrangelo will be.

I really don't see any pairings the Blues could put together that I would be completely comfortable with because if there's injuries it will not be good. I hope they will still add a defenseman either before the season or not long afterwards because the current defensive group still is just not good enough to win a cup.
Minutes played has everything to do with it. IIRC, Hitch said that he liked to use Polak and Russell against smaller, faster forward lines. He is also obviously comfortable with Jackman and Shattenkirk logging big minutes. Will he have to play against 1-2 lines? Yes. Will playing with Petro significantly help him? Absolutely.

While I agree that putting a relatively unknown commodity like Cole on the top line isnt ideal, I will also say that I believe that the chemistry between defensive partners is a lot more important than 1st, 2nd, 3rd pairing labels. If Cole and Petro play well together, it would be downright stupid to dismiss it because you dont want a rookie on the 1st pairing (I wouldnt even call him a rookie at this point).

I also somewhat disagree about us not being able to win with this current defense. LA did it with one great defender and good depth behind him, the Blues defense isnt built that differently. Boston was the same way the year before, too. ****, Id even take Shattenkirk over Mitchell in LA or Seidenberg in BOS as the #2 guy. While we could probably use one more proven guy back there, its not like the last two Cup champion defenses were leaps and bounds ahead of (or even that different from) ours.

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07-30-2012, 01:50 AM
  #79
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I got no problem rolling the dices with Cole next year but my only problem is that after Cole we really have no blue chip lefty defenseman in the system.

Behind Cole the only other left handed option is Ponich who struggled in Peoria last year. Then on the right side we have Fairchild, Hakanpaa, Edmundson and Schmaltz who are all rightys. We gotta get some left side depth.

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07-30-2012, 01:55 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Blanick View Post
I got no problem rolling the dices with Cole next year but my only problem is that after Cole we really have no blue chip lefty defenseman in the system.

Behind Cole the only other left handed option is Ponich who struggled in Peoria last year. Then on the right side we have Fairchild, Hakanpaa, Edmundson and Schmaltz who are all rightys. We gotta get some left side depth.
Edmundson and Fairchild are lefties. But I agree, no blue chippers. Also no natural blue chipper centers in the system, which is an ever weaker spot. All three forwards they drafted this past June project as wingers.

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07-30-2012, 02:02 AM
  #81
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Edmundson and Fairchild are lefties. But I agree, no blue chippers. Also no natural blue chipper centers in the system, which is an ever weaker spot. All three forwards they drafted this past June project as wingers.
Whoops guess I did misread Fairchild but according to hockeydb Edmundson is a righty http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=130643

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07-30-2012, 03:44 AM
  #82
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Whoops guess I did misread Fairchild but according to hockeydb Edmundson is a righty http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=130643
Happy to stand corrected if it's true about Edmundson. In absorbing a lot of data on random Blues prospects, I still feel fairly sure he plays the left side at least some of if not all of the time. I can't remember where everything came from so I don't have a source off the top of my head. I recall a discussion about Edmundson where if he panned out fully he'd be a Jason Garrison type – booming slapshot (95+ mph) who's known as a physical defensive defenseman who plays the left. Someone help clear this up.

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07-30-2012, 04:02 AM
  #83
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Joel Edmundson shoots left handed...


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07-30-2012, 05:15 AM
  #84
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Thanks Grouch. Sometimes hockeydb is wrong. I was pretty sure Edmundson was a lefty. With Ponich struggling to get his game going in Peoria (lingering knee injury effects?), Edmundson is probably our top lefty D prospect besides Cole. He's huge, he beats the crap out of people when appropriate, has a powerful slapshot, he's strongly defensive minded, he's a decent profile of a player for one day playing alongside Shattenkirk or Pietrangelo but he's got to keep developing. Pretty pleased Armstrong turned 1.3 seasons of Brad Boyes' albatross contract into Edmundson. Remember, the 2011 draft was pretty flat from picks 20-50 and Edmundson at 46 might well end up looking like first round talent if the Blues' scouts were as shrewd as when they took Rattie at 32. If the Brewer deal was more open to criticism, then the Boyes deal (and the Winchester deal to get the Maceachern pick) wasn't. The Brewer deal also may have been mitigated by Brewer's NTC limiting the options as well as Armstrong trying to build a relationship with Yzerman for trades (continued with the Crombeen deal this year).

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07-30-2012, 07:07 AM
  #85
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Agree that the pipeline needs more LHD.

Cole, Edmundson, Ponich could be the answer if they all pan out. (and maybe Fairchild).

But this is the organization's weak link right now.

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07-30-2012, 08:27 AM
  #86
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Edmundson started slowly because of the high ankle sprain. He showed some offense at the end of the season. Love to see a scouting report on his progress.

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07-30-2012, 09:07 AM
  #87
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I've read very good things on Edmundson, he could find his way into the NHL in a couple of years. Ponich on the other hand, everything I read about him last year talked about him being "overwhelmed" which is disappointing because with his size he could be impact player.

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07-30-2012, 12:43 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Because I don't completely agree with the options. I think he is capable of playing on the first pairing, but I don't think he should play 20+ minutes. He should be getting 18-19 minutes just like Colaiacovo got. If he is with Pietrangelo, I think he will be just fine on the top pairing.

So you think it is ludicrous to think in July that Cole won't be ready for the top pairing in April? If Pietrangelo doesn't have a torn MCL, Cole will be just fine with him. You can't just gloss over the fact that Pietrangelo wasn't close to being his normal self.

If you are so against Cole, then what are you plans for the defense? I didn't see where it was said that Shattenkirk will be full-time with Pietrangelo, and I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm not buying it happening at all. That would make it a disaster for the other pairings. Jackman needs someone like Shattenkirk to be successful, and that means he would have to be with Russell. Russell shouldn't be in our top 4, and Russell or Jackman have not proven that they are capable of play on their off-side.
Pairings really only stay together at even strength so if you’re comfortable with Cole playing against the opposition’s best on the top pairing alongside Petro then you should probably select the 1st pairing option.

My whole point though is that I think the Blues should strive for much better than “just fine”. Why are you ok with “just fine” and/or why do you think that Cole will be a legit 1st pairing d-man by the playoffs? Given that he’s always been projected as a future #3-4 d-man in his prime, what makes you think that he’ll be at the level of a #2 d-man by the end of his first full regular season in the NHL? Would you really consider the Blues to be serious Cup contenders with Cole playing such a key role?? I’d say that the Blues defensive problems in the playoffs last season went way beyond Petro’s sprained MCL. If anything, it highlighted what a relatively average group of d-men the Blues have with a Petro not at 100%...all the more reason to get someone much better alternative than Cole as Petro’s partner.

I am not against Cole at all. I’m just being realistic. I would be comfortable with him getting decent 5 on 5 minutes against lower quality competition (on average) along with some PK time – ie. a 3rd pairing role. Regarding the pairings I’ve posted numerous times, I’m just going by what JR’s posted based off of his discussions with Hitch. I don’t really like those pairings either but I don’t really see any good solution no matter how you put the pairings together with the current 6 d-men. THAT is the problem. Inserting Cole onto the top pairing simply because he’s a lefty and the Blues lack a lefty on the top pairing in order to keep last year’s pairings together is convenient but not a viable solution IMO.

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07-30-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
Pairings really only stay together at even strength so if you’re comfortable with Cole playing against the opposition’s best on the top pairing alongside Petro then you should probably select the 1st pairing option.

My whole point though is that I think the Blues should strive for much better than “just fine”. Why are you ok with “just fine” and/or why do you think that Cole will be a legit 1st pairing d-man by the playoffs? Given that he’s always been projected as a future #3-4 d-man in his prime, what makes you think that he’ll be at the level of a #2 d-man by the end of his first full regular season in the NHL? Would you really consider the Blues to be serious Cup contenders with Cole playing such a key role?? I’d say that the Blues defensive problems in the playoffs last season went way beyond Petro’s sprained MCL. If anything, it highlighted what a relatively average group of d-men the Blues have with a Petro not at 100%...all the more reason to get someone much better alternative than Cole as Petro’s partner.

I am not against Cole at all. I’m just being realistic. I would be comfortable with him getting decent 5 on 5 minutes against lower quality competition (on average) along with some PK time – ie. a 3rd pairing role. Regarding the pairings I’ve posted numerous times, I’m just going by what JR’s posted based off of his discussions with Hitch. I don’t really like those pairings either but I don’t really see any good solution no matter how you put the pairings together with the current 6 d-men. THAT is the problem. Inserting Cole onto the top pairing simply because he’s a lefty and the Blues lack a lefty on the top pairing in order to keep last year’s pairings together is convenient but not a viable solution IMO.
You said it better than I could have.

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07-30-2012, 02:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
Pairings really only stay together at even strength so if you’re comfortable with Cole playing against the opposition’s best on the top pairing alongside Petro then you should probably select the 1st pairing option.

My whole point though is that I think the Blues should strive for much better than “just fine”. Why are you ok with “just fine” and/or why do you think that Cole will be a legit 1st pairing d-man by the playoffs? Given that he’s always been projected as a future #3-4 d-man in his prime, what makes you think that he’ll be at the level of a #2 d-man by the end of his first full regular season in the NHL? .
Where have the Blues projected Cole as a #3-4? That's all that really matters here - what the Blues think his ceiling is - not experts from the outside.

There were no free agents LD that fit Armstrong's budget.

There doesn't appear to be a trade he's comfortable with.

Choices - 1) overpay a free agent; 2) get robbed in a trade; 3) go with what we have.

I'll take 3. That makes Cole the best candidate for the #1 pair.

If it doesn't work - and I think it will - then time for Plan B and make a trade in-season.

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07-30-2012, 03:51 PM
  #91
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Where have the Blues projected Cole as a #3-4? That's all that really matters here - what the Blues think his ceiling is - not experts from the outside.

There were no free agents LD that fit Armstrong's budget.

There doesn't appear to be a trade he's comfortable with.

Choices - 1) overpay a free agent; 2) get robbed in a trade; 3) go with what we have.

I'll take 3. That makes Cole the best candidate for the #1 pair.

If it doesn't work - and I think it will - then time for Plan B and make a trade in-season.
Is there any reason to believe that the Blues consider Cole's ceiling to be higher than 2nd pairing?

Regarding the options you listed, 1 didn't happen so it doesn't matter now. I'm only looking forward, not backwards. 2. Of course Army isn't going to swing a deal in which he gets robbed. It's clear as day that he's not comfortable with the current D group though. As recently as today, JR has said via twitter that Army continues to look for a d-man via trade. 3. They'll go with what they have if they have to but my point is that if they want to succeed in the playoffs, they're going to have to improve te D. Army realizes that so as long as he does, that's what matters to me. Even if they do start the season with the current 6, why do you think putting Cole on the top pairing against the opposition's best would be the best idea? Especially since everything from JR and everything from Hitch & Army via JR seems to indicate a likely 3rd pairing role for Cole?

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07-30-2012, 04:57 PM
  #92
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Maybe my definition of "just fine" is different from yours. When I say "just fine" I am saying that we will be just find to contend with any team in the league.

The Kings didn't beat us in different ways. They beat us in the same way again and again. It is a relatively small problem to fix IMO. Colaiacovo and Huskins are both slower and not the best puck movers. Cole on the other hand is a better skater and I think better with the puck, that is a slight upgrade. A healthy Pietrangelo makes that pairing a lot better, but I've already been over that.

Even if Cole just becomes a #3, he will be playing with arguably the best defenseman in the game. Pietrangelo's ability on the blueline is similar to Crosby's upfront. Petro can elevate the play of his partners. Petro can make a 3-4 into a #2.

I really don't think we should be making judgements on players in July for how they will be in April. We did that last year with Stewart and look what he did. On the other side of the spectrum look at Elliott last season. At a minimum wait until pre-season games, and IMO we should wait at least 10-15 games before we make any type of judgement on Cole for this upcoming season.

Am I the only one remembering how Cole played against Pittsburgh when Crosby was tearing up the league in his return? He had 37 shifts, 21:48 minutes of ice time, 1 assist, and he was a +1 playing against the best player in the game while he was hot. Cole has shown that he can be a shut down defender. He has shown that he can play great with Pietrangelo. He just needs the experience and consistency which comes with playing regularly.

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07-30-2012, 05:15 PM
  #93
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I really don't see the conflict on this point. The pairings will get shuffled around until there's an optimal fit. Colaiacovo had the 5th most minutes last year but he was on the "first pairing." I agree that the definitions here are a little ambiguous.

Cole will and should get a chance to settle in. Armstrong is clearly aware of the issues back there, and there's time before any trigger has to be pulled. You don't have to do it before the season starts. It's nice for fan impatience to get everything done in the summer but it really doesn't HAVE to be that way. Give Cole a chance to be in the lineup every night. Whether he's paired with Russell, Shattenkirk or Pietrangelo that's the job of coaches to evaluate the best fit. I wouldn't be surprised to see him with any of those partners.

As for playoffs, the word "trust" is messing up this debate. How do you "trust" someone who really hasn't seen playoff time? (Of course he's seen more than Bouwmeester ... "trust" him in the playoffs?). I think really all this boils down to is bleedblue has cautious optimism and IA has cautious pessimism. Each is defensible, honestly. Part of the joy of sports is getting to watch these debates play out on the ice. Even if IA is pessimistic on trusting Cole, there's no way he wouldn't be ecstatic if Cole made a big developmental leap. Even if bleedblue is optimistic on Cole, there's no way if he sees that Cole's development isn't on pace with the team's competitive window he wouldn't support an upgrade.

For me, I like that Cole's going to get a chance. I'm cautiously optimistic and I like the Cole option better than a number of outside options, and I like a few outside options better than the Cole option, though those are lessened with Garrison in Vancouver and Suter in Minnesota. I think we can all agree Armstrong is fully aware of the need for one bigger impact defenseman back there. And besides, there is always bound to be an injury so Cole will get time either way.

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07-30-2012, 06:48 PM
  #94
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Right, I would definitely say I'm more optimistic on Cole. If it turns out that Cole isn't quite ready or if he just flat out isn't the guy, then I fully support a trade. I'm not against us making a trade for a legit upgrade, I just don't see one out there that is worth it. If Calgary calls and says if you make a package with Cole in it for Giordano, I'm personally buying Cole's plane ticket. I just think we can still compete with anyone with Cole partnered with a healthy Pietrangelo.

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07-30-2012, 07:59 PM
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The Blues made the commitment when JD came here to live or die with the kids. Given the economics of a small market team, that really is the only choice.

I think we all agree the Jay McKee game plan didn't work out so hot.

They committed to Oshie, Perron and Berglund and they delivered. Now it's Cole's turn. I think he will turn out to be the real deal - a top pair D-man. But there will be growing pains.

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07-30-2012, 08:37 PM
  #96
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The Blues made the commitment when JD came here to live or die with the kids. Given the economics of a small market team, that really is the only choice.

I think we all agree the Jay McKee game plan didn't work out so hot.

They committed to Oshie, Perron and Berglund and they delivered. Now it's Cole's turn. I think he will turn out to be the real deal - a top pair D-man. But there will be growing pains.
Committing to Cole should mean they give him the PROPER opportunities to develop and reach his potential.

Pairing Cole with Petro is not a viable solution in my opinion because Cole is not ready for that and may never be.

Cole is Jackman's replacement, a physical, second pairing defenseman.

Placing him with Petro would be poor asset management.

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07-31-2012, 02:26 AM
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Committing to Cole should mean they give him the PROPER opportunities to develop and reach his potential.

Pairing Cole with Petro is not a viable solution in my opinion because Cole is not ready for that and may never be.

Cole is Jackman's replacement, a physical, second pairing defenseman.

Placing him with Petro would be poor asset management.
Thats pretty harsh, HE IS REPLACING CARLO COLAIACAVO,

And Im sorry, but how does anyone figure playing with Alex P is not putting him in a position to succeed? Is putting him with a limited player like Polak or Russell putting him in more of a position to succeed?

And Im not necessarily saying that Cole should be Petros partner, but its not even August, a lot of stuff can happen before camp starts. Im just saying that dismissing the idea right now is silly.

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07-31-2012, 02:43 AM
  #98
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I think we will run with our current top 6 to start the season and then maybe acquire an upgrade near the trade deadline where we will hopefully options will open up. You gotta remember right now all 30 teams think they got a shot at the playoffs so that top pairing guy isn't going to be available but give it a few months into the seasons and some top guys might come available.

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07-31-2012, 03:02 AM
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Thats pretty harsh, HE IS REPLACING CARLO COLAIACAVO,

And Im sorry, but how does anyone figure playing with Alex P is not putting him in a position to succeed? Is putting him with a limited player like Polak or Russell putting him in more of a position to succeed?

And Im not necessarily saying that Cole should be Petros partner, but its not even August, a lot of stuff can happen before camp starts. Im just saying that dismissing the idea right now is silly.
I think the problem some have with playing him with Petro is that he would go up against the top lines of the opposition night in and night out when he hasn't really proven anything one way or the other yet. I'd be okay with starting Cole alongside Petro, and adjusting from there. Petro moving to the left side and Shatty sliding up would also be an option I'd explore.

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07-31-2012, 07:50 AM
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Committing to Cole should mean they give him the PROPER opportunities to develop and reach his potential.

Pairing Cole with Petro is not a viable solution in my opinion because Cole is not ready for that and may never be.

Cole is Jackman's replacement, a physical, second pairing defenseman.

Placing him with Petro would be poor asset management.
By letting Cola walk and not bringing in someone else, the Blues seem to be saying they disagree with you.

A little harsh to say he may never be a top pair d-man at this stage. He's got the potential - that's the only conclusion I draw at this point.

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