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Why didn't Dave Bolland pan out?

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Old
07-28-2012, 09:58 PM
  #26
hockeydoug
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Is Bolland too much of "elite" role player to be packaged for a 2nd line center, a number 3 dman, or a better goalie?

I think he's their best asset to shop to land an improvement in one or those areas in a package deal.

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07-28-2012, 10:28 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
Is Bolland too much of "elite" role player to be packaged for a 2nd line center, a number 3 dman, or a better goalie?

I think he's their best asset to shop to land an improvement in one or those areas in a package deal.
yes he's good enough, but then you have a huge hole when you get rid of him.

Not worth it.

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07-29-2012, 03:55 AM
  #28
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I don't know, maybe it's easy to forget because he always shows up for the playoffs, but I believe Bolland goes missing a lot in the regular season. Whether he's trying to play through injury or not, he hasn't always passed the test in the regular season. I think he was -11 at one point this past season.

By failing to pan out, I didn't mean Dave Bolland is a bust. He's clearly one of the better 3C in the NHL when fully healthy and motivated. I'm just looking at his draft position and CHL stats compared to our current golden boy, Saad, and I'm wondering whether Saad is getting too much love. I'm just assuming that after 5 years in the NHL, if Saad breaks 40 points once like Bolland has, he won't be considered a commodity.

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07-29-2012, 04:29 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needle View Post
I don't know, maybe it's easy to forget because he always shows up for the playoffs, but I believe Bolland goes missing a lot in the regular season. Whether he's trying to play through injury or not, he hasn't always passed the test in the regular season. I think he was -11 at one point this past season.

By failing to pan out, I didn't mean Dave Bolland is a bust. He's clearly one of the better 3C in the NHL when fully healthy and motivated. I'm just looking at his draft position and CHL stats compared to our current golden boy, Saad, and I'm wondering whether Saad is getting too much love. I'm just assuming that after 5 years in the NHL, if Saad breaks 40 points once like Bolland has, he won't be considered a commodity.
There's a long line of CHL superstars that didn't pan out in the NHL. I don't think anyone is lost on that fact...I hope not anyway. But the fact remains, Saad does seem to be the Hawks best prospect since Toews and Kane joined the team 5 years ago.

In regards to Bolland...remember he played with better players in his first couple years than he has the last few years. He has mostly been saddled with players in Q's doghouse since the cup win. I don't think he's ever been given a legit chance to be the team's #2 center.

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07-29-2012, 09:04 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needle View Post
I don't know, maybe it's easy to forget because he always shows up for the playoffs, but I believe Bolland goes missing a lot in the regular season. Whether he's trying to play through injury or not, he hasn't always passed the test in the regular season. I think he was -11 at one point this past season.

By failing to pan out, I didn't mean Dave Bolland is a bust. He's clearly one of the better 3C in the NHL when fully healthy and motivated. I'm just looking at his draft position and CHL stats compared to our current golden boy, Saad, and I'm wondering whether Saad is getting too much love. I'm just assuming that after 5 years in the NHL, if Saad breaks 40 points once like Bolland has, he won't be considered a commodity.

Where to start. -11. Let's see.... You know how +/- works, right? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Dave Bolland's our 3rd line center, and spends the vast majority of this minutes A) playing against the other team's top line, B) starting play in his own zone, and C) playing with linemates that aren't nearly as skilled playing defense as he is, or contributing offensively. And oh yeah, he finished the season as an even 0 on the +/- side of things. Which means if he was -11 at some point, he had to finish the season out going +11 against the top talent on the other team. He was still 7th on the team in scoring, and 6th in goals.

Cut this guy some slack. He's done everything we've asked of him from the 3rd line. He shows up HUGE in the playoffs. He does the dirtiest work in the dirtiest areas and we haven't surrounded him with **** for talent on either side of him. His health's been a bit of an issue, but this guy, when healthy, is quite simply one of the most valuable players on this team.

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07-29-2012, 10:01 AM
  #31
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If Saad "busts" and turns out to be a 40 point, two way monster, I'd be fine with that. We'd have a nasty 3rd line.

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07-29-2012, 11:54 AM
  #32
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When the PP was good, Bolland's unit was a big part of it, often outperforming the first unit.

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07-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
When the PP was good, Bolland's unit was a big part of it, often outperforming the first unit.
Kyle Calder outperformed all of them on the pp in 2004.

I don't think there were any bright spots on the 2012 pp other than the rare highlight. I don't think Bolland's pp success against secondary pk units is anything very significant. He had 7 ppg the previous 3 seasons. I hope it means he'll be a pp dynamo, but I'm skeptical.

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07-29-2012, 01:08 PM
  #34
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Bolland's offense is often underrated due to the role he plays. His offensive zone starts are so outweighed by his defensive ones, his main linemates this year were Bickell and Frolik and he still put up a good amount of points. 40 points is really good for a guy in that situation. Imagine if he played with guys like Hossa, Sharp, etc. 60 points isn't out of the question for him in second line duties which, with his defensive abilities and his agitating play would make him one of the top 2nd line centers in the NHL.

The problem is that the Hawks center depth (or lack thereof) makes him irreplaceable on the 3rd line. The myth that Bolland "failed" at taking the 2C job is just that, a myth. He looked good when tried there but the 3rd line became a mess so he had to go back to it.

Bolland is one of the most important players to the team, outside of Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith and Seabrook there is nobody more important.

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07-29-2012, 01:37 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
yes he's good enough, but then you have a huge hole when you get rid of him.

Not worth it.
If we trade Bolland, we will fill a bigger hole than we would create...



this thread = FAIL

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07-30-2012, 11:18 AM
  #36
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1. Well--as far as offense goes --Bolland doesn't get featured PP time --so you cannot expect a lot of 3rd line scoring from him if his wingers are average or less than the elite of 3rd line wingers in the league --as pointed out Ladd and Havlat with bolland was a very special offensively capable 3rd line...I don't think you can expect Bickell (even with a better year) and Shaw (given a full season --well after a possible cBA delayed start this year) can provide that kind of support to get Bolland upto that level again--BUT even THEN he still was below 50 pts (47) in 2008/09...

2. As for shutdown centre --he can shut down skilled but non-physical centres lie H. Sedin --but can have trouble with big physical overpowering centres (because Bolland is not a big centre--so he has size issues...
Certainly last year's "0" as a =/- stat for Bolland is not that great to describe as a successful "shutdown" centre.

HE has seemed not to be able to add much weight --still listed at 180 ...this already is a concern because we read how Andrew Shaw has already added 12 pounds over last season's weight which finished at 180 and seems capable of adding more-the question WHY have they been unable to give Bolland more strength by adding muscle? It could be a major problem.



3. He has not always gotten through seasons without time off for injuries (though last year he did play 76 reg season games) ---but again his size (small) taking an 82 game NHL grind in an asigned shutdown line role is probably begging for body breakdowns... So this affects his play (playing with injuries or playing not 100% after getting back from injury) both in reducing offensive impact /effectiveness and in defensive effectivenes... IF healthy for a shorter stretch (like the playoffs) he possibly can "shine"---but over the long 82 game reg season grind -he may be one of those guys who can't sustsin either offensive or defensive impact for most of that long tretch of a season.


4. The one thing I find most disappointing in him from where he was in jrs is that his wicked "shot" seems either gone or just not used enough ...He had a very good one timer shot with London as a Jr.--but we hardly see any evidence of it anymore..You wonder how this could be?


5. STRUCTUALLY -IF we go with a "small" but skilled 2C (kane or in future TT) then I do not think a "smal"" 3C like Bolland can stay in the mix...We can't be shoved around on the majority of lines because we are smurphy in the middle on back to back lines (2+3) ....not going to work.

THUS -I'm afraid Bolland long-term future at 3c for us is going to be in jeopardy --if not this year--soon --once TT is ready for the 2C role. We willneed a 3c with physical size and strentgh to take on the bigger physical centres in the leagure ..


6. FINALLY another big flaw with Bolland--he is lousy at face-offs ..THAT kills us and also limits his PK effectiveness...

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07-30-2012, 11:58 AM
  #37
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Really, his linemates are all over the place. It's long overdue for the Hawks to acquire a solid two way winger who is good on faceoffs to flank him. As for the other spot, that could be a revolving door but he needs someone else with him all the time that does the same things he does but can also at least split draws.

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07-30-2012, 01:32 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
2. As for shutdown centre --he can shut down skilled but non-physical centres lie H. Sedin --but can have trouble with big physical overpowering centres (because Bolland is not a big centre--so he has size issues...
Certainly last year's "0" as a =/- stat for Bolland is not that great to describe as a successful "shutdown" centre.
Like Joe Thornton?

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07-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #39
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Like Joe Thornton?
Yeah, I'm not sure where hf50 was going with that one either.

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07-30-2012, 02:23 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
1. Well--as far as offense goes --Bolland doesn't get featured PP time --so you cannot expect a lot of 3rd line scoring from him if his wingers are average or less than the elite of 3rd line wingers in the league --as pointed out Ladd and Havlat with bolland was a very special offensively capable 3rd line...I don't think you can expect Bickell (even with a better year) and Shaw (given a full season --well after a possible cBA delayed start this year) can provide that kind of support to get Bolland upto that level again--BUT even THEN he still was below 50 pts (47) in 2008/09...

2. As for shutdown centre --he can shut down skilled but non-physical centres lie H. Sedin --but can have trouble with big physical overpowering centres (because Bolland is not a big centre--so he has size issues...
Certainly last year's "0" as a =/- stat for Bolland is not that great to describe as a successful "shutdown" centre.

HE has seemed not to be able to add much weight --still listed at 180 ...this already is a concern because we read how Andrew Shaw has already added 12 pounds over last season's weight which finished at 180 and seems capable of adding more-the question WHY have they been unable to give Bolland more strength by adding muscle? It could be a major problem.



3. He has not always gotten through seasons without time off for injuries (though last year he did play 76 reg season games) ---but again his size (small) taking an 82 game NHL grind in an asigned shutdown line role is probably begging for body breakdowns... So this affects his play (playing with injuries or playing not 100% after getting back from injury) both in reducing offensive impact /effectiveness and in defensive effectivenes... IF healthy for a shorter stretch (like the playoffs) he possibly can "shine"---but over the long 82 game reg season grind -he may be one of those guys who can't sustsin either offensive or defensive impact for most of that long tretch of a season.


4. The one thing I find most disappointing in him from where he was in jrs is that his wicked "shot" seems either gone or just not used enough ...He had a very good one timer shot with London as a Jr.--but we hardly see any evidence of it anymore..You wonder how this could be?


5. STRUCTUALLY -IF we go with a "small" but skilled 2C (kane or in future TT) then I do not think a "smal"" 3C like Bolland can stay in the mix...We can't be shoved around on the majority of lines because we are smurphy in the middle on back to back lines (2+3) ....not going to work.

THUS -I'm afraid Bolland long-term future at 3c for us is going to be in jeopardy --if not this year--soon --once TT is ready for the 2C role. We willneed a 3c with physical size and strentgh to take on the bigger physical centres in the leagure ..


6. FINALLY another big flaw with Bolland--he is lousy at face-offs ..THAT kills us and also limits his PK effectiveness...
I'm not sure how accurate it is to say how lousy Bolland is at faceoffs. Last year he was up to 48.4 from 45.1 the year before. Most teams have a significantly lower win percentage when they are on the PK.

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07-30-2012, 05:12 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
2. As for shutdown centre --he can shut down skilled but non-physical centres lie H. Sedin --but can have trouble with big physical overpowering centres (because Bolland is not a big centre--so he has size issues...
Certainly last year's "0" as a =/- stat for Bolland is not that great to describe as a successful "shutdown" centre.
.
This is so ridiculous, it's laughable. Where do you come up with nonsense like this? Against the top talent in the LEAGUE...of ALL SIZES...he played even +/- hockey. Tat means that Bolland, and the class of clowns that lined up on his wings, scored as many goals as the 1st line talent they lined up against. I mean...are you ****ing kidding me? Please, for the love of Christ, name me all the 3rd lines out there that are outscoring the top line opposition they're facing. Just....wow. If he's having issues with big, physical, overpowering centers...then he must be shovin' up the ass of all the other players he's up against. Because if those centers are the one's putting you in the minus column, then you have to be doing things right against everyone else to bring your +/- back up to zero. He has size issues. LOL Dave Bolland is one of the chief reasons the opposition's top lines don't go to town with a tomahawk against us.

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07-30-2012, 05:16 PM
  #42
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lol @ giving Bolland **** for his even rating

Bollands Linemates?

Bickell -3
Frolik -10
Shaw -1
Hayes -3

not to mention that at any given moment, Bolland would have two completely random players on his wings.

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07-30-2012, 06:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
This is so ridiculous, it's laughable. Where do you come up with nonsense like this? Against the top talent in the LEAGUE...of ALL SIZES...he played even +/- hockey. Tat means that Bolland, and the class of clowns that lined up on his wings, scored as many goals as the 1st line talent they lined up against. I mean...are you ****ing kidding me? Please, for the love of Christ, name me all the 3rd lines out there that are outscoring the top line opposition they're facing. Just....wow. If he's having issues with big, physical, overpowering centers...then he must be shovin' up the ass of all the other players he's up against. Because if those centers are the one's putting you in the minus column, then you have to be doing things right against everyone else to bring your +/- back up to zero. He has size issues. LOL Dave Bolland is one of the chief reasons the opposition's top lines don't go to town with a tomahawk against us.
Hawksfan50 does bring up a few good points however when it comes to physicality, or lack thereof .... If TT or Kane becomes our 2nd line center we will need size on the 2nd line to give either some breathing space. If we remain this soft, we get eaten up in the playoffs, as opps key on Toews and Kane/TT. Carcillo can only do so much as a light heavyweight. We witnessed some teams getting very physical against Toews last year and taking liberties in doing so. This needs to stop and is one of the main reasons I'd like Stan to take a serious shot at acquiring Doan. Perhaps a guy like Beach can learn a thing or two from him about the role he needs to play to be successful ... and he will be ready to take it on full force in a year or two.

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07-30-2012, 06:12 PM
  #44
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In what sick world is this where Dave Bolland didn't "pan out"?

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07-31-2012, 06:06 AM
  #45
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Size?? we have size in the future. Looks like we go small and weak in the middle and big and strong on the Wings... interesting theory to think about

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07-31-2012, 02:28 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Hawksfan50 does bring up a few good points however when it comes to physicality, or lack thereof .... If TT or Kane becomes our 2nd line center we will need size on the 2nd line to give either some breathing space. If we remain this soft, we get eaten up in the playoffs, as opps key on Toews and Kane/TT. Carcillo can only do so much as a light heavyweight. We witnessed some teams getting very physical against Toews last year and taking liberties in doing so. This needs to stop and is one of the main reasons I'd like Stan to take a serious shot at acquiring Doan. Perhaps a guy like Beach can learn a thing or two from him about the role he needs to play to be successful ... and he will be ready to take it on full force in a year or two.
Mark Bell was a light heavy. Carcillo is a capable middleweight.

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07-31-2012, 03:20 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Hawksfan50 does bring up a few good points however when it comes to physicality, or lack thereof .... If TT or Kane becomes our 2nd line center we will need size on the 2nd line to give either some breathing space. If we remain this soft, we get eaten up in the playoffs, as opps key on Toews and Kane/TT. Carcillo can only do so much as a light heavyweight. We witnessed some teams getting very physical against Toews last year and taking liberties in doing so. This needs to stop and is one of the main reasons I'd like Stan to take a serious shot at acquiring Doan. Perhaps a guy like Beach can learn a thing or two from him about the role he needs to play to be successful ... and he will be ready to take it on full force in a year or two.
Oh...I'm not denying that. If TT or Kane become our second line center, we need bigger wingers. Still...this has nothing to do with Boland on the third line, as he has nothing to do with how the 2nd line matches up. This team needs players like Hayes to step up. In general, this team needs to get tougher. We have no one on this team that's intimidating or physically imposing. We barely have anyone on this team that even qualifies as being irritating to play against, outside of Bolland, Carcillo, and perhaps Shaw. You need more than just skill. We're lacking in size, and it simply cannot be discounted how important size is. I agree with you on Beach too. Bring him up. Now. Sink or swim. Be nasty. Be beligerent. Get in front of the net. Would love to see Beach and Hayes bring some size and crash to this outfit. Not sure if Hayes can , or will, deliver such an element, but it'd be nice to see.

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