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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-28-2012, 09:23 PM
  #276
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
OMG they have lost it Batman !!! Comparing the Habs to Florida !!!
No ****. The embarrassment on this thread continues and is actually getting more absurd.

I love how MacKinnon makes the tankers salivate. One problem. A team tanks its ass off and loses to Edmonton in the lottery again (yes, Edmonton will be in the lottery again......so will Columbus.......high first rounders be damned).

Then what?

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07-28-2012, 09:30 PM
  #277
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No ****. The embarrassment on this thread continues and is actually getting more absurd.

I love how MacKinnon makes the tankers salivate. One problem. A team tanks its ass off and loses to Edmonton in the lottery again (yes, Edmonton will be in the lottery again......so will Columbus.......high first rounders be damned).

Then what?
profit?

Imagine Mack + Gally 1-2 punch combo... Pittsburgh ain't got **** on us!

And we're the HABS. Team ain't going to dwell in the cellar for too long.

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07-28-2012, 10:09 PM
  #278
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OMG someone has a different opinion than yours, how crazy.
If you followi this thread from the opening you'll recognize that it's not not an opinion but an obsession. The OP doesn't tell us exactly what to do but tosses out generalities, expecting every move will turn to gold. Which capable veterans does he propose to sacrifice to bring in the next generation of David Fischers and Corey Urquharts and Ben Maxwells? Must we suffer through this kindergarten show-and-tell or do we allow the capable management now in place to make adult decisions? It's really nice to make a profit, please some of the fans, raise TV ratings, sell branded products at the Bell Centre with a respectable team. Take one case of a team that fumbled repeatedly until it acquired a stream of high draft choics. Although the Blackhawk fans at last rejoiced in a Cup win they went through hell for years until it came. But the glory proved evanescent. Now they don't even have an overpowering team because the salary cap and the laws of economics caught up to them. The Penguins won championships in the early 1990s when they stank enough to draft Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr but they didn't win another for 18 years.


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07-28-2012, 10:14 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No ****. The embarrassment on this thread continues and is actually getting more absurd.

I love how MacKinnon makes the tankers salivate. One problem. A team tanks its ass off and loses to Edmonton in the lottery again (yes, Edmonton will be in the lottery again......so will Columbus.......high first rounders be damned).

Then what?
I'd LOVE to settle with Seth Jones. Love it. Top 5 next year laugh at this year's top 5. Thing is, you need to look at this whole "tanking" with some kind of perspective and overall analysis. Where's Edmonton's goalie? Where's Edmonton's defense? So yes, with solely youngsters, you don't go far...you need some surroundings. As far as going back to tanking....well while the Oilers are indeed fairly young, you can't blame the kids in the top 5 that they've picked in the last 3 drafts. 1 hasn't started. And the the 2 others are doing fairly well thank you. Will Seguin be a better player than Hall, remains to be seen. Yet, if he ends up being, well that was a guy available for the Oilers. But the other youngsters, well they weren't part of the lottery. Columbus? Well they sucked at drafting and/or suck at developing and surely worst than us. Why should they be the example to take? Why should we compare ourselves to the worst in the NHL? You almost give any other drafting or development team to Columbus and they are not where they are for a very long time.

Personnally, I'm not for tanking. 'Cause you can't do that. But I'm totally for reshaping a team when it's not going well. I'm TOTALLY for giving players for high picks if we're too far from making it. The day you realize that your strongest asset is working at the draft table, you KNOW that you need to use that asset as best as you can. Then, you also realize that you need to develop those guys. This present management SEEMS to realize it. We'll see the results.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 07-28-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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07-28-2012, 10:22 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I'd LOVE to settle with Seth Jones. Love it. Top 5 next year laugh at this year's top 5.
I won't argue with your assessment of the draft pool. I just don't think the Habs will be found at the bottom of the pond at the end of this coming season even if Bergevin makes a few cost cutting moves close to the trade deadline. Who knows, he might even feel he has to bring in a veteran instead.

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07-28-2012, 10:29 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I won't argue with your assessment of the draft pool. I just don't think the Habs will be found at the bottom of the pond at the end of this coming season even if Bergevin makes a few cost cutting moves close to the trade deadline. Who knows, he might even feel he has to bring in a veteran instead.
Same here. I don't see it. Just saying, it won't be the catastrophy if it happens....far from it. If, by accident, we happen to fall hard and get another top 5 next year....with the 3 picks in the 2nd round and maybe add a few more, this team will be a force to be reckon with in 2-3 years for the next 10 years 'cause on top of what we already have, there is NO question in my mind that some of the picks we will have next year will have an impact in 2 or 3 years of their draft year, even some in the 2nd round....and I might be too conservative....Yet, it also depends of the guy in net though.

But people should stop looking at OTHER teams and in their assessment of it would be good or not, just concentrate on OUR team and see if we have the rest of the guys to surround those upcoming youngsters. If your answer is no, then yes, be worry. I know that there's a lot of intangibles. Before we can benefit from what we have in Hamilton, in Junior and in the upcoming draft, we might have to wait a whole 3-4 years to have everybody together. Who will the vets? I guess we don't really know. You won't be counting on Cole. Maybe not on Markov. Where will be Plekanec? Will the youngsters we have now will be great "vets"? Like Pac, Subban, Eller and Co? If the answer is yes....why worry about the tons of youngsters coming even if some with interrogation marks? We have enough to overcome the ones that won't pan out. Maybe up front can still be seen as more fragile than on D....well this is where next year comes into play.


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07-28-2012, 11:07 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
OMG they have lost it Batman !!! Comparing the Habs to Florida !!!
All-time record, Montreal Canadiens vs. Florida Panthers : 31-34-6. (including 0-4 in '11/'12)

Stanley Cups since Panthers' inception : Habs - 0, Panthers - 0
Stanley Cup Finals appearances : Habs - 0, Panthers - 1


Last edited by Deaner: 07-28-2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: added SC/SCF facts
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07-28-2012, 11:41 PM
  #283
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OMG they have lost it Batman !!! Comparing the Habs to Florida !!!
Robin,

You sit there and laugh but since our last cup appearance Florida has been to the finals more than we have. Clubs like Tampa and Carolina have won cups and other expansion clubs like Anaheim have gone on to win Championships.

Yes we have the better history but it's exactly that... history. Time to start working on the future. Florida actually has some great prospects right now and they actually made the playoffs this season. We're looking up at them right now so I'm not sure what it is that you're laughing at.

When you rest on your laurels, you glorify the past as the future dries up. Just ask Leaf fans (most of whom have never seen a cup win) about this.

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07-28-2012, 11:44 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Same here. I don't see it. Just saying, it won't be the catastrophy if it happens....far from it. If, by accident, we happen to fall hard and get another top 5 next year....with the 3 picks in the 2nd round and maybe add a few more, this team will be a force to be reckon with in 2-3 years for the next 10 years 'cause on top of what we already have, there is NO question in my mind that some of the picks we will have next year will have an impact in 2 or 3 years of their draft year, even some in the 2nd round....and I might be too conservative....Yet, it also depends of the guy in net though.

But people should stop looking at OTHER teams and in their assessment of it would be good or not, just concentrate on OUR team and see if we have the rest of the guys to surround those upcoming youngsters. If your answer is no, then yes, be worry. I know that there's a lot of intangibles. Before we can benefit from what we have in Hamilton, in Junior and in the upcoming draft, we might have to wait a whole 3-4 years to have everybody together. Who will the vets? I guess we don't really know. You won't be counting on Cole. Maybe not on Markov. Where will be Plekanec? Will the youngsters we have now will be great "vets"? Like Pac, Subban, Eller and Co? If the answer is yes....why worry about the tons of youngsters coming even if some with interrogation marks? We have enough to overcome the ones that won't pan out. Maybe up front can still be seen as more fragile than on D....well this is where next year comes into play.
I'm exasperated by those who discourage signing desirable UFAs and trading for veterans on principle. The tankards seem to forget that some recent championship teams (the Bruins in particular) made good trades and free agent signings. Aside from Seguin and Horton, they didn't feature high draft picks, and they didn't even draft Horton (not to mention Chara and Thomas, among others. The Devils are another example, although they didn't win the Cup this year. Of course there are also the Penguins, who were lousy enough to be able to draft Fleury and Crosby at #1 and Malkin at #2, but that wasn't all they did to build their teams.

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07-28-2012, 11:55 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm exasperated by those who discourage signing desirable UFAs and trading for veterans on principle. The tankards seem to forget that some recent championship teams (the Bruins in particular) made good trades and free agent signings. Aside from Seguin and Horton, they didn't feature high draft picks, and they didn't even draft Horton (not to mention Chara and Thomas, among others. The Devils are another example, although they didn't win the Cup this year. Of course there are also the Penguins, who were lousy enough to be able to draft Fleury and Crosby at #1 and Malkin at #2, but that wasn't all they did to build their teams.
There are different means of winning cups. Rask and Seguin (both Toronto Rip-offs) didn't feature prominently in their win but if they win future cups I'm sure they will play key roles.

The Bruins landed Chara as an FA. If you can get a guy like that, you go get him for sure. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But we've shown no abilility (for whatever reason) to do this. And an FA of Chara's calibre doesn't come along too often. But let's be real here. The B's won primarily because they landed an incredible goalie who was a total fluke. The guy left the NHL for Pete's sake and came back in his mid 30s to become a star. No way to predict this and therefore... no way to repeat it.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat but rebuilding has been shown to work more than any other method. If FA was the way to go, we'd have expected to see the Rangers win the cup year after year and it hasn't happened.

Invest in the best young prospects you can. Build your team with them that way and see how it goes and make trades as needed. What's the problem with that strategy?

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07-29-2012, 12:49 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm exasperated by those who discourage signing desirable UFAs and trading for veterans on principle. The tankards seem to forget that some recent championship teams (the Bruins in particular) made good trades and free agent signings. Aside from Seguin and Horton, they didn't feature high draft picks, and they didn't even draft Horton (not to mention Chara and Thomas, among others. The Devils are another example, although they didn't win the Cup this year. Of course there are also the Penguins, who were lousy enough to be able to draft Fleury and Crosby at #1 and Malkin at #2, but that wasn't all they did to build their teams.
But I'm not against that either....the day we recognize that we are indeed a great team and not just a 1-year wonder. Bruins are a very good team. For years to come. They can invest in players like that. See, they also gave some picks even for 3rd rounders like Kelly. Yet, they re-invested in Kelly who does gave them some great services in his own role so a 2nd pick for him is not that big of a deal. 'Cause they have a team to succeed for years to come. And because the players they go for succeed and first and foremost....re-sign. We're not talking about 1/2 of a year of Dominic Moore here. Or everything else in picks and players we gave away for 1 year and sometimes not even 1 year of the return we got. So give me a plan. A real one. With some stability attached to it and a real direction and THEN you can give away "some" picks if you want to. Yet, you still need to let Timmins work. He's your strongest asset. Montreal will rarely be attractive to UFA's. And for trades, well no-trades clauses exist and Montreal can still not be on their list. Our success will come from the draft. Doesn't mean you can't add pieces through other means, I totally agree. I would have the tendancy to think that the fillers might be coming from something else than draft while the gamechanging players will come from the draft. We did get Cole though. Who is definately a gamechanging player. And I wasn't against that. I have NO PROBLEM overpaying 'cause I understand the reality. And if the players gives me some, I'll overpay him myself. Can't care less if Cole is indeed overpaid. So UFA time, if the player deserve it, overpay him. I clearly prefer that over sending picks away or prospects for absolutely nothing....

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07-29-2012, 06:15 AM
  #287
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No need for a "surgical tank" tank;the personnel on the team,injuries,good/bad year individual cycles etc...will effect the team's finish without any mgt assistance.Having three second rounders in a deep draft next year should be sufficient for a chance at some solid picks and possibly more from trade deadline moves. As for free agents I believe we'll have to build a contender from within before elite talent will look to Montreal as a real choice,with Timmins and some luck and patience,it will happen.Time to ban the 'T' word,it's for losers.

This is the Montreal Canadiens,Les Glorieux.We win or go down swinging.

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07-29-2012, 06:25 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You're one of the sharpest posters on the board. When I saw your name on the front page as the last poster I was excited to see what you had written.

I was then disappointed after clicking. You can do better.
Maybe if you based your conclusions on other things than pure subjective speculation.

There are a lot of reasons why it might turn right, and many reasons why it might turn wrong.

And I don't have much time to waste nowadays. People might've noticed I haven't been around as much.

EDIT: Here I have a few minutes to spare, I'll add that there is no case to be made, as financially, and considering the consumer response last season, Habs cannot afford another finish out of the playoffs. That could be more damaging in the long run than anything else.


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07-29-2012, 08:14 AM
  #289
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All-time record, Montreal Canadiens vs. Florida Panthers : 31-34-6. (including 0-4 in '11/'12)

Stanley Cups since Panthers' inception : Habs - 0, Panthers - 0
Stanley Cup Finals appearances : Habs - 0, Panthers - 1
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Robin,

You sit there and laugh but since our last cup appearance Florida has been to the finals more than we have. Clubs like Tampa and Carolina have won cups and other expansion clubs like Anaheim have gone on to win Championships.

Yes we have the better history but it's exactly that... history. Time to start working on the future. Florida actually has some great prospects right now and they actually made the playoffs this season. We're looking up at them right now so I'm not sure what it is that you're laughing at.

When you rest on your laurels, you glorify the past as the future dries up. Just ask Leaf fans (most of whom have never seen a cup win) about this.
What are you guys even talking about. I AM NOT comparing stats. I am talking hockey markets, wake up for ***** sake ! There is NO WAY IN HELL that the Montreal market will accept any kind of tank. What kind of hockay fan even mentions or thinks about losing on purpose. It's farfaloux. If you were ever in hockey as deep as i am, you would understand were i am comming from. The only people that have any thought or mention of the tank BS, are people who are clueless about the true runnings of any hockey club.


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07-29-2012, 10:52 AM
  #290
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What are you guys even talking about. I AM NOT comparing stats. I am talking hockey markets, wake up for ***** sake ! There is NO WAY IN HELL that the MOntreal market will accept any kind of tank. What kind of hockay fan even mentions or thinks about losing on purpose. It's farfaloux. If you were ever in hockey as deep as i am, you would understand were i am comming from. The only people that have any thought or mention of the tank BS, are people who are clueless about the true runnings of any hockey club.
Amen!

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07-29-2012, 10:58 AM
  #291
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What are you guys even talking about. I AM NOT comparing stats. I am talking hockey markets, wake up for ***** sake ! There is NO WAY IN HELL that the MOntreal market will accept any kind of tank. What kind of hockay fan even mentions or thinks about losing on purpose. It's farfaloux. If you were ever in hockey as deep as i am, you would understand were i am comming from. The only people that have any thought or mention of the tank BS, are people who are clueless about the true runnings of any hockey club.
I would like to add that there is no team that goes into a season predetermined to tank, ever. It's something you decide to do when there's no chance in hell you are getting in the playoffs, ideally around the TDL where you unload a bunch of contracts to facilitate it. (You know, because the coach or players will never go with the notion they have to lose games instead)

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07-29-2012, 11:04 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm exasperated by those who discourage signing desirable UFAs and trading for veterans on principle. The tankards seem to forget that some recent championship teams (the Bruins in particular) made good trades and free agent signings. Aside from Seguin and Horton, they didn't feature high draft picks, and they didn't even draft Horton (not to mention Chara and Thomas, among others. The Devils are another example, although they didn't win the Cup this year. Of course there are also the Penguins, who were lousy enough to be able to draft Fleury and Crosby at #1 and Malkin at #2, but that wasn't all they did to build their teams.
Great post.

Regarding the Bruins, it becomes evident the glaring difference between Chiarelli the GM and Gauthier the GM.

One was able to make trades and signings that moved his team forward. The other made trades and signings that moved his team backwards.

Tanking is not needed in Montreal. No, we have what we need in a GM that understood what was missing in Montreal. Bergevin will move this team forward without the need of the mythical tank that exists in the minds of a few embarrassing fans.

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07-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #293
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I would like to add that there is no team that goes into a season predetermined to tank, ever. It's something you decide to do when there's no chance in hell you are getting in the playoffs, ideally around the TDL where you unload a bunch of contracts to facilitate it. (You know, because the coach or players will never go with the notion they have to lose games instead)
Exactly and as Ozz mentioned above, the Habs could not afford to go into a couple of seasons FINANCIALLY not making the playoffs. We have a fickle fanbase
( borderline INSANE ). They could flip and stop going like they did only a few years back.
Like HF Habs fans, there's are alot of bandwagon fans in and around Montreal.

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07-29-2012, 11:14 AM
  #294
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This past season was tough enough. I think that we saw last year some great improvements in players, the Habs have a franchise goalie, a solid defence and I think that with Galchenyuk, Eller, Emelin, Price, Subban etc all improving there are plenty of high potential players. I do believe the Habs need to improve their forwards however, as in my opinion, the forward lines are average at best. But I don't think the fans could tolerate another disappointing season like last season.

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07-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #295
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Exactly and as Ozz mentioned above, the Habs could not afford to go into a couple of seasons FINANCIALLY not making the playoffs. We have a fickle fanbase
( borderline INSANE ). They could flip and stop going like they did only a few years back.
Like HF Habs fans, there's are alot of bandwagon fans in and around Montreal.
If Molson can't afford to go without playoff revenue then the Habs have a large chance of being screwed next year.

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07-29-2012, 11:34 AM
  #296
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This past season was tough enough. I think that we saw last year some great improvements in players, the Habs have a franchise goalie, a solid defence and I think that with Galchenyuk, Eller, Emelin, Price, Subban etc all improving there are plenty of high potential players. I do believe the Habs need to improve their forwards however, as in my opinion, the forward lines are average at best. But I don't think the fans could tolerate another disappointing season like last season.
Exactly. This "surgical tanking" would result in several more years of misery before the Habs can rise from their ashes. And even then there will be other teams in the way. The lowly Oilers have brought in Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, and Yakupov and will have another crack at a high draft choice. Galchenyuk by himself can't match these players.

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07-29-2012, 11:37 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Wassup View Post
This past season was tough enough. I think that we saw last year some great improvements in players, the Habs have a franchise goalie, a solid defence and I think that with Galchenyuk, Eller, Emelin, Price, Subban etc all improving there are plenty of high potential players. I do believe the Habs need to improve their forwards however, as in my opinion, the forward lines are average at best. But I don't think the fans could tolerate another disappointing season like last season.
The problem with the Habs forwards was the reliance of Martin on the dump and chase with smallish players.

Additionally, the problem with the Habs defense was the reliance of Martin on playing a very passive system of defense.

Hopefully that will all change with Therrien.

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07-29-2012, 11:39 AM
  #298
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If you followi this thread from the opening you'll recognize that it's not not an opinion but an obsession. The OP doesn't tell us exactly what to do but tosses out generalities,
Simply not true.

I've explicitly said what to do. What Bergevin is already doing, that's why I give him an A+. They're entering the season with a weak lineup. They chose not to sign Semin or Jagr even though they had the option to do so. This means making the playoffs this year is not the number 1 ultimate priority. They want to build a long-term winner.

I then added that Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle, should be given privileged minutes to boost their trade value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
expecting every move will turn to gold. Which capable veterans does he propose to sacrifice to bring in the next generation of David Fischers and Corey Urquharts and Ben Maxwells? Must we suffer through this kindergarten show-and-tell or do we allow the capable management now in place to make adult decisions?
I give the capable management an A+.

FYI some 2nd rounders turn into Maxim Lapierre, Guillaume Latendresse and PK Subban. They're not all garbage.

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07-29-2012, 11:41 AM
  #299
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The problem with the Habs forwards was the reliance of Martin on the dump and chase with smallish players.

Additionally, the problem with the Habs defense was the reliance of Martin on playing a very passive system of defense.

Hopefully that will all change with Therrien.
Another thing I learned from this thread is that a lot of fans think Martin was a bad coach.

He took a bad team filled with injuries to 8th and 6th place, and then to the conference finals one year and to game 7 against the eventual champions the next.

[Two other things I learned, people think Colby Armstrong will play a significant positive role, and some people consider the Ottawa Senators 2011-2012 season to be a success]


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07-29-2012, 11:46 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
Exactly and as Ozz mentioned above, the Habs could not afford to go into a couple of seasons FINANCIALLY not making the playoffs. We have a fickle fanbase
( borderline INSANE ). They could flip and stop going like they did only a few years back.
Like HF Habs fans, there's are alot of bandwagon fans in and around Montreal.
They will come crawling back once Gally and MacKinnon are putting up 100 pts seasons, not worried in case we do have an other terrible year.

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