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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #301
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Personnally, I'm not for tanking. 'Cause you can't do that. But I'm totally for reshaping a team when it's not going well. I'm TOTALLY for giving players for high picks if we're too far from making it. The day you realize that your strongest asset is working at the draft table, you KNOW that you need to use that asset as best as you can. Then, you also realize that you need to develop those guys. This present management SEEMS to realize it. We'll see the results.
If we're in 9th place at the trade deadline and someone offers a 2nd rounder for Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, do you pull the trigger?

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07-29-2012, 12:50 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
They will come crawling back once Gally and MacKinnon are putting up 100 pts seasons, not worried in case we do have an other terrible year.
We tanked last year.

Guaranteed if the Habs win a playoff game this year you'll hear honking all over downtown Montreal.

People even came back after Chara concussed Pacioretty and the only analysis we got was that it was a "solid playoff hockey play".

Le tricolore is in Quebecer's blood.

The idea that the fans would leave for good after a brief tank, and would ignore future stanley cup wins, is totally ludicrous.

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07-29-2012, 12:51 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Simply not true.

I've explicitly said what to do. What Bergevin is already doing, that's why I give him an A+. They're entering the season with a weak lineup. They chose not to sign Semin or Jagr even though they had the option to do so. This means making the playoffs this year is not the number 1 ultimate priority. They want to build a long-term winner.
The problem is that 'making the playoffs this year is not the number one ultimate priority' is a long way from trying to get a lottery pick. I'm sure Bergevin expects this team to challenge for a playoff place.

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07-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
The problem is that 'making the playoffs this year is not the number one ultimate priority' is a long way from trying to get a lottery pick. I'm sure Bergevin expects this team to challenge for a playoff place.
Yes, there are several ranks between 9th place in the eastern conference and 15th place in the eastern conference.

Even late last season when we all knew the Habs were not making the playoffs, we didn't know if we'd finish bottom-5. A lot of fans didn't think we could outtank a battle-hardened veteran Tanker like Brian Burke. We weren't sure about Anaheim or Long Island either.

It largely comes down to luck. Obviously I'd prefer drafting 2nd overall to 12th overall, but that can't be controlled. This year, Filip Forsberg was drafted 11th overall and Mikhail Grigorenko was drafted 12th. Next year will be better. So it's not the worse thing in the world if the team exceeds my expectations and straddles the divide between bubble team and lottery team, like Buffalo and Colorado did this year.

You can't micromanage a team's final standing in the conference.

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07-29-2012, 02:16 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Another thing I learned from this thread is that a lot of fans think Martin was a bad coach.

He took a bad team filled with injuries to 8th and 6th place, and then to the conference finals one year and to game 7 against the eventual champions the next.

[Two other things I learned, people think Colby Armstrong will play a significant positive role, and some people consider the Ottawa Senators 2011-2012 season to be a success]
Lets leave Martin out of the picture then.

You are the head coach of a hockey team. Your GM has given you a team of small forwards and undersized DMen.

What is your strategy and system that you will put into place to maximize your offensive production?

And what defensive strategy will you employ?

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07-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If we're in 9th place at the trade deadline and someone offers a 2nd rounder for Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, do you pull the trigger?
No offense, but I think you are confused a little bit regarding what is tanking.

Tanking is losing on purpose.

Trading Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle away is sound asset management........regardless of what part of the season it happens. Poor asset management by Gauthier (Gainey) is the reason we have those three money sucking failures on our team.

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07-29-2012, 02:21 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Lets leave Martin out of the picture then.

You are the head coach of a hockey team. Your GM has given you a team of small forwards and undersized DMen.

What is your strategy and system that you will put into place to maximize your offensive production?

And what defensive strategy will you employ?
Pretty much the same one he installed.

A system based on passive defense that maximizes its opportunities from turnovers in the neutral zone into the breakout. Small gaps between the centers and the defense in between the blue line and the center line, with passive aggressive pressure on the opposing puck movers. Coupled with a strict zone defense when in the defensive zone that is based on positioning and blocking passing lanes.

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07-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No offense, but I think you are confused a little bit regarding what is tanking.

Tanking is losing on purpose.

Trading Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle away is sound asset management........regardless of what part of the season it happens. Poor asset management by Gauthier (Gainey) is the reason we have those three money sucking failures on our team.
Nowhere in my opening post did I suggest Budaj should get 40 starts. I am not for "intentional losing".

If there were intentional losing, it would be done by the coach. Therrien will do his best to win games. My opening post and all subsequent posts were from the perspective of what Bergevin is doing and should be doing going forward.

Finally, I don't consider Kaberle a money-sucking failure. I think if we play our cards right we can fetch a good return for him.

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07-29-2012, 02:32 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Lets leave Martin out of the picture then.

You are the head coach of a hockey team. Your GM has given you a team of small forwards and undersized DMen.

What is your strategy and system that you will put into place to maximize your offensive production?

And what defensive strategy will you employ?
I would have gone for an offensive system that played to our supposed strength at the start of the 2009-2010 season: 1st line center and playmaker Scott Gomez.

And then there would have been no chance in hell we would have made the conference finals.

Martin overachieved here.

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07-29-2012, 02:43 PM
  #310
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The Montreal Canadiens will not lose games on purpose.But I don't think the current roster will put them close to a playoff spot.

11-14 in the east is realistic.

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Old
07-29-2012, 02:43 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Nowhere in my opening post did I suggest Budaj should get 40 starts. I am not for "intentional losing".

If there were intentional losing, it would be done by the coach. Therrien will do his best to win games. My opening post and all subsequent posts were from the perspective of what Bergevin is doing and should be doing going forward.

Finally, I don't consider Kaberle a money-sucking failure. I think if we play our cards right we can fetch a good return for him.
The Habs might get a fairly reasonable return for Kaberle at some point, although not the first rounder the Leafs got from Boston. However, I wouldn't call that tanking. If getting rid of as many as feasible of Kaberle, Gomez, Bourque, Geoffrion, and Weber were all you wanted to do, I'd go along with it. If you have Markov and Plekanec in mind, I'd say no because they're not easy to replace and I don't want to see a shabby team for the next few years.

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07-29-2012, 02:56 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The Habs might get a fairly reasonable return for Kaberle at some point, although not the first rounder the Leafs got from Boston. However, I wouldn't call that tanking. If getting rid of as many as feasible of Kaberle, Gomez, Bourque, Geoffrion, and Weber were all you wanted to do, I'd go along with it. If you have Markov and Plekanec in mind, I'd say no because they're not easy to replace and I don't want to see a shabby team for the next few years.
Tomas Kaberle fetched the Leafs Joe Colborne (a 6'5" former 1st rounder progressing nicely), a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder. I've always thought that was a ridiculous trade. At the time I suspected the Bruins did it in order to make Toronto worse, to improve the value of Toronto's draft pick. I'd be shocked if we got half of that.

I did not call for Markov/Plekanec/Gionta to be traded because I think the Habs can be competitive again as soon as the 2013-2014 season, at which point these guys will still be useful. However, I'd still trade them but only for a good return. Hypothetically:

- Gionta for any late 1st rounder, particularly if Gallagher or Leblanc are tearing it up in Hamilton and ready for a promotion.
- Markov to Washington for Kuznetsov, a 1st, and a 2nd, or Kuznetsov and Forsberg.
- Plekanec to Chicago for Hjalmarsson, Teräväinen, and a 2nd, paricularly if Eller and Desharnais both improve.

So yeah, my threshold for trading these guys is very high. I think it's extremely unlikely we'd get that kind of return, so I'm not in favor of trading them. Markov and Plekanec both might have 5+ years left of good productivity, I'd keep them.

I doubt Geoffrion and Weber have any value on the trade market.

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07-29-2012, 03:28 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Nowhere in my opening post did I suggest Budaj should get 40 starts. I am not for "intentional losing".
No, you just suggested it with your title.

You think Montreal 'tanked' last year. You think Toronto 'tanked' when they didn't even have their first round pick. Quite frankly if you posted the same arguments but stopped using the word 'tank' such a random way (and especially phrases like 'surgical tank' which cannot imply anything other than a deliberate action to lose) then you'd probably find a lot fewer people disagreeing with you.

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07-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
No, you just suggested it with your title.
My OP was very clear.

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
You think Montreal 'tanked' last year.
They traded Gill, Cammalleri and Kostitsyn for futures. They gave up on the playoffs, and made the team strictly weaker on a short-term basis to improve their long-term prospects.

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
You think Toronto 'tanked' when they didn't even have their first round pick.
I never wrote that.

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Quite frankly if you posted the same arguments but stopped using the word 'tank' such a random way (and especially phrases like 'surgical tank' which cannot imply anything other than a deliberate action to lose) then you'd probably find a lot fewer people disagreeing with you.
Surgical implies precision and targeted. Like a surgical missile strike, the idea is that you're hitting a very specific target, as opposed to carpet bombing which just causes as much damage as possible.

The columbus/edmonton tanks would be carpet bombing in this metaphor. It has lasted and will last for years, as it was unplanned and is thus poorly coordinates. Both Columbus and Edmonton fell into their current trap by thinking they could be playoff teams. Columbus signed Wisniewski and Prospal, and traded great futures for Jeff Carter. Now they have nothing for several seasons. Edmonton signed Horcoff, Sourray, etc they were trying to make the playoffs and stumbled into tankdom... several years later they're only now completing their rebuild.

I don't share the exhuberance for the Habs roster. I think that with poor management, and even with average management, there is a major risk of the Habs position collapsing to that of Edmonton/Columbus/Calgary/Toronto.

However, because of the way many things are aligned right now, which I listed (good group in Hamilton, great 2013 draft that could follow a good 2012 Habs draft for the Habs), a single season of "tanking", which I consider equivalent to entering the season with the current roster, would be sufficient to right to course.

People have told me I'm overly pessimistic, but actually my post was optimistic. I said we only need one additional year to rebuild.


Last edited by DAChampion: 07-29-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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07-29-2012, 09:01 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Tomas Kaberle fetched the Leafs Joe Colborne (a 6'5" former 1st rounder progressing nicely), a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder. I've always thought that was a ridiculous trade. At the time I suspected the Bruins did it in order to make Toronto worse, to improve the value of Toronto's draft pick. I'd be shocked if we got half of that.

I did not call for Markov/Plekanec/Gionta to be traded because I think the Habs can be competitive again as soon as the 2013-2014 season, at which point these guys will still be useful. However, I'd still trade them but only for a good return. Hypothetically:

- Gionta for any late 1st rounder, particularly if Gallagher or Leblanc are tearing it up in Hamilton and ready for a promotion.
- Markov to Washington for Kuznetsov, a 1st, and a 2nd, or Kuznetsov and Forsberg.
- Plekanec to Chicago for Hjalmarsson, Teräväinen, and a 2nd, paricularly if Eller and Desharnais both improve.

So yeah, my threshold for trading these guys is very high. I think it's extremely unlikely we'd get that kind of return, so I'm not in favor of trading them. Markov and Plekanec both might have 5+ years left of good productivity, I'd keep them.

I doubt Geoffrion and Weber have any value on the trade market.
I'm puzzled. You call for surgical tanking but you're willing to hold on to the better veterans. As you say, Bourque and Geoffrion wouldn't fetch much in return. However, there's an advantage in clearing cap space in case an opportunity comes along. Of course, the real white elephant is Gomez.

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07-29-2012, 09:23 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm puzzled. You call for surgical tanking but you're willing to hold on to the better veterans. As you say, Bourque and Geoffrion wouldn't fetch much in return. However, there's an advantage in clearing cap space in case an opportunity comes along. Of course, the real white elephant is Gomez.
Weber and Geoffrion are almost non-factors. Whatever cap we're spending on them is quite small and can be reduced to zero by sending them to Hamilton. If we can get some trade value out of them great, but I doubt it. I'd rather roll the dice and see if they can become NHL regulars.

The point of tanking/rebuilding/developing/etc is to eventually compete for the cup. Markov and Plekanec can be part of that going forward. They're relatively young.

An irony of Markov's injuries is that he's avoided a lot of wear and tear from the 82 game grinds, so he might actually be productive to 41 or 42.

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07-29-2012, 09:35 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'd still trade them but only for a good return. Hypothetically:

- Gionta for any late 1st rounder, particularly if Gallagher or Leblanc are tearing it up in Hamilton and ready for a promotion.
- Markov to Washington for Kuznetsov, a 1st, and a 2nd, or Kuznetsov and Forsberg.
- Plekanec to Chicago for Hjalmarsson, Teräväinen, and a 2nd, paricularly if Eller and Desharnais both improve.

I doubt Geoffrion and Weber have any value on the trade market.
I don't agree with your tanking idea but I would make everyone of your trades. Doubt very much the other teams would.

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:13 AM
  #318
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I am not for "intentional losing".
You're not for "intentional losing" and yet you've started a thread making a case for taking the season.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

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07-30-2012, 06:29 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If we're in 9th place at the trade deadline and someone offers a 2nd rounder for Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, do you pull the trigger?
How can I answer that? 9th place...how many points from 8th? 1 point or 10 points? And most importantly...how are those guys' seasons? Are they doing great or not? If not, why would people offer their 2nd rounder? If great...shouldn't we keep them? Hypothetical question that I have no idea where it's going or where it should go.

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07-30-2012, 09:03 AM
  #320
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What are you guys even talking about. I AM NOT comparing stats. I am talking hockey markets, wake up for ***** sake ! There is NO WAY IN HELL that the Montreal market will accept any kind of tank. What kind of hockay fan even mentions or thinks about losing on purpose. It's farfaloux. If you were ever in hockey as deep as i am, you would understand were i am comming from. The only people that have any thought or mention of the tank BS, are people who are clueless about the true runnings of any hockey club.
The only one here who is clueless is you.

The club has been mediocre for almost 20 years. We have an entire generation of fans who don't know what it's like to watch a good team on the ice. The fans haven't gone anywhere and they're not going anywhere. We sell out consistently and the owners make money over fist every year.

Please don't waste everyone's time with these tired old fallacies. The fans will show up no matter what and the team will make money no matter what.

Florida on the other hand won't show up even if they have a winner. So I'm not sure what it is you think you're proving here. You've got this exactly wrong.

As for losing on purpose... won't happen. Can't happen. Trading vets for younger players and picks though, yeah we should do that. We should've done this long ago.

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07-30-2012, 09:09 AM
  #321
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Exactly and as Ozz mentioned above, the Habs could not afford to go into a couple of seasons FINANCIALLY not making the playoffs. We have a fickle fanbase
Yeah right... poor Montreal can't afford to have any losing seasons... go smell what you're shovelling.

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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
( borderline INSANE ). They could flip and stop going like they did only a few years back.
Like HF Habs fans, there's are alot of bandwagon fans in and around Montreal.
Consistently 'going for it' is what's got us into this mess. Short term thinking leads to short term small results. The Habs can afford to have some losing seasons. We've proven this already. We're among the very richest teams in the league. You're either trying to deliberately mislead people to suit an argument or you don't know what you're talking about. Either way you're wrong.

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07-30-2012, 09:10 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If we're in 9th place at the trade deadline and someone offers a 2nd rounder for Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, do you pull the trigger?
Why wait for the deadline to make that deal? I'd make that deal today.

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07-30-2012, 10:11 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
If you followi this thread from the opening you'll recognize that it's not not an opinion but an obsession. The OP doesn't tell us exactly what to do but tosses out generalities, expecting every move will turn to gold. Which capable veterans does he propose to sacrifice to bring in the next generation of David Fischers and Corey Urquharts and Ben Maxwells? Must we suffer through this kindergarten show-and-tell or do we allow the capable management now in place to make adult decisions? It's really nice to make a profit, please some of the fans, raise TV ratings, sell branded products at the Bell Centre with a respectable team. Take one case of a team that fumbled repeatedly until it acquired a stream of high draft choics. Although the Blackhawk fans at last rejoiced in a Cup win they went through hell for years until it came. But the glory proved evanescent. Now they don't even have an overpowering team because the salary cap and the laws of economics caught up to them. The Penguins won championships in the early 1990s when they stank enough to draft Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr but they didn't win another for 18 years.
OP did not toss out generalities. He was quite specific.

He never said he expects every move to turn to gold.

He did not propose to move any capable veterans.

Kindergarten show and tell? Then why don't you give us your show and tell? What do you propose the Habs do the next 2 years?

Blackhawks won a cup. There are thirty teams in the league now. A cup is phenomenal. And Hawks fans are not stupid, they will enjoy that cup, knowing they may not get another one for a while. It was fantastic for the Hawks market to win a cup. And it gave the fans new heroes to talk about as they struggle like all teams in the 30 team league to win another one. What are you saying? Cups are BAD?

Ditto on Pittsburgh.

Why are you being contradictory for the sake of it, with not one logical, reasonable counter argument to make? What a useless post you make.

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What are you guys even talking about. I AM NOT comparing stats. I am talking hockey markets, wake up for ***** sake ! There is NO WAY IN HELL that the Montreal market will accept any kind of tank. What kind of hockay fan even mentions or thinks about losing on purpose. It's farfaloux. If you were ever in hockey as deep as i am, you would understand were i am comming from. The only people that have any thought or mention of the tank BS, are people who are clueless about the true runnings of any hockey club.
I am amazed when someone is so vehement in being completely incorrect. You should exercise caution in your posts.

The Habs are the ONE team in the NHL that can easily withstand two years of struggling, or five, if fans see progress with prospects and effort on the ice. Is that not self evident the last 20 years? It is a huge advantage for us. And I think Molson and MB might agree on this.

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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
Exactly and as Ozz mentioned above, the Habs could not afford to go into a couple of seasons FINANCIALLY not making the playoffs. We have a fickle fanbase
( borderline INSANE ). They could flip and stop going like they did only a few years back.
Like HF Habs fans, there's are alot of bandwagon fans in and around Montreal.
I am in Hong Kong the last 15 years. Watching every year. I will never ever give up on the Habs. Thousands and thousands of Habs fans all over the world. Habs fans over 40 by the tens of thousands.

Fickle. Right.We are the most loyal fans of any pro sports team in history I'd bet.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Exactly. This "surgical tanking" would result in several more years of misery before the Habs can rise from their ashes. And even then there will be other teams in the way. The lowly Oilers have brought in Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, and Yakupov and will have another crack at a high draft choice. Galchenyuk by himself can't match these players.
You just said that we should not rebuild because other teams that are rebuilding will be better. Good one. What do you suggest we do instead?

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
The problem is that 'making the playoffs this year is not the number one ultimate priority' is a long way from trying to get a lottery pick. I'm sure Bergevin expects this team to challenge for a playoff place.
His moves, or rather, non moves so far this summer suggest otherwise. What makes you sure that MB expects this team to be in the PO next year? What? Tell us? Drivel.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Tomas Kaberle fetched the Leafs Joe Colborne (a 6'5" former 1st rounder progressing nicely), a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder. I've always thought that was a ridiculous trade. At the time I suspected the Bruins did it in order to make Toronto worse, to improve the value of Toronto's draft pick. I'd be shocked if we got half of that.

I did not call for Markov/Plekanec/Gionta to be traded because I think the Habs can be competitive again as soon as the 2013-2014 season, at which point these guys will still be useful. However, I'd still trade them but only for a good return. Hypothetically:

- Gionta for any late 1st rounder, particularly if Gallagher or Leblanc are tearing it up in Hamilton and ready for a promotion.
- Markov to Washington for Kuznetsov, a 1st, and a 2nd, or Kuznetsov and Forsberg.
- Plekanec to Chicago for Hjalmarsson, Teräväinen, and a 2nd, paricularly if Eller and Desharnais both improve.

So yeah, my threshold for trading these guys is very high. I think it's extremely unlikely we'd get that kind of return, so I'm not in favor of trading them. Markov and Plekanec both might have 5+ years left of good productivity, I'd keep them.

I doubt Geoffrion and Weber have any value on the trade market.
Again, intelligent and reasonable. What the **** is the problem with this? Why do so many of you disagree? Does this hurt your feelings?

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
No, you just suggested it with your title.

You think Montreal 'tanked' last year. You think Toronto 'tanked' when they didn't even have their first round pick. Quite frankly if you posted the same arguments but stopped using the word 'tank' such a random way (and especially phrases like 'surgical tank' which cannot imply anything other than a deliberate action to lose) then you'd probably find a lot fewer people disagreeing with you.
I understood before reading the very first post that The OP should have used the term rebuild, which is I presume what he meant from his posts. If you cannot get beyond the definition of one word and think about concepts, that's your problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Weber and Geoffrion are almost non-factors. Whatever cap we're spending on them is quite small and can be reduced to zero by sending them to Hamilton. If we can get some trade value out of them great, but I doubt it. I'd rather roll the dice and see if they can become NHL regulars.

The point of tanking/rebuilding/developing/etc is to eventually compete for the cup.Markov and Plekanec can be part of that going forward. They're relatively young.

An irony of Markov's injuries is that he's avoided a lot of wear and tear from the 82 game grinds, so he might actually be productive to 41 or 42.
I have had the same thought on Marky for the last year. Broken for good, or nicely rested the last 2 years. Not one other person on this board has ever mentioned this. I appreciate original thinking. Not many others here have shown any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You're not for "intentional losing" and yet you've started a thread making a case for taking the season.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Useless post. The OP never ever talked about intentional losing. This has been explained many times. You refuse to understand.

In summary. I am disappointed at the level of responses on this thread. I am certainly not all knowing, far from it, nor is the OP, and I do disagree with some aspects of his argument, but not many.

I have seen almost no reasonable, respectful or thoughtful responses to a post that only proposes something logical and obvious , a viable strategy for a team that desperately needs one. A one year strategy, for a team that desperately needs to win a cup, not finish 6th and get knocked out in the first round the next 5 years.


Last edited by bsl: 07-30-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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07-30-2012, 10:18 AM
  #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Why wait for the deadline to make that deal? I'd make that deal today.
I'm putting the reflexive anti-tankers on the spot.

Of course the 9th place bit doesn't really matter. If you want to do that trade, it should not matter if you're 2 points in front of 9th or 2 points behind 8th. Once you do that trade it means you're willing to deliberately put a weaker team on the ice in the short-term (i.e. lose more games), reducing your odds of "winning now" if one defines "winning now" as mimicking the 2011-2012 Ottawa Senators, in order to improve the long-term prospects of your franchise.

People who are not obsessed with euphemisms call that "tanking".

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07-30-2012, 10:29 AM
  #325
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bsl, thank you for your posts.

I wonder if part of the reason for our positioning is our geography. You have been in Hong Kong for 15 years. I've been in Columbus for 5 years (where I've witnessed the damage of obsessing over 8th place), and I'm taking 4-year contract in Australia beginning in September. Due to our distance, we are outside of the bubble and can more easily take the sober approach that a 1st round playoff exit is meaningless.

A lot of people in this thread have thrown out the slogan that they have a winning mentality. They pointed to the 2011-2012 senators as an example of success. I like to think I have a winning mentality, and I consider the 2011-2012 Ottawa Senators a failure. IMO, they did no better than Buffalo or Colorado. Yes they made the playoffs, but they were tourists in the playoffs, they didn't make any noise, and they weren't going to.

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