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Third Most Dominant Player Of The 1980's

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Old
07-24-2012, 06:22 PM
  #51
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
I'm not saying Denis Potvin.
But I come to think of him as in other threads here, he seemed to be looked upon as ahead of Trottier and Bossy in some key areas. (My impressions too are that he was a very dominant defenceman. Offensively not as much as Coffey, but defensively more so. I know he retired before the end of the decade, but he did win four Stanley Cups and he did score at least 19 points in each run.) I'm just wondering what people here think about Potvin..? Is he top-ten among the "most dominating" NHLers in the 1980s?
He has 8 seasons in the 80's (I'm a 81-90 decade guy) and 3 of his 4 Dynasty years as well.

He is definitely top 10 but you can't give credit for time or seasons not played either.

In the OP's criteria 79-89) he has 9 seasons and all 4 runs (where he was probably the best Islander overall despite not winning a Conn Smythe) so he would be in my top 5 along with Gretzky, Statsny, Bourque, and man there are so many guys who could be 5th overall (Trottier,Hawerchuck, Moose, Bossy, Kurri ect...).

Sorry Mario didn't play enough to be a full decade guy.

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07-24-2012, 06:36 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Potvin's tough to pigeonhole into a decade, but I always think of him more as a guy who peaked in the late 70s than the 1980s
It would make a neat mid to mid decade type of question just for argument sakes here are the top guys points wise 75-85 (using the OP's original idea of what a decade was).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

It's a tribut to Wayne that is still 2nd on this list, Potvin is 8th

In the playoffsit was

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Gretzky 156
Potvin 154
Trottier 154
Bossy 152
Lafleur 119
Kurri 101
Clarke 95
Barber 94
Perrault 93
Bourne 92


Potvin is clearly the mid to mid decade guy for me 75-85 (even with Wayne and his 6 great years)

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07-24-2012, 07:18 PM
  #53
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I thought Stastny and Goulet were usually on separate lines, Hardy...

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07-24-2012, 07:24 PM
  #54
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Curious to know if the people voting Stastny would also take Dale Hawerchuk, Denis Savard, and Jari Kurri over Ray Bourque for the 1980s too.

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07-24-2012, 07:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I thought Stastny and Goulet were usually on separate lines, Hardy...
Two things here

1) Hunter was Goulet 5-5 most common line mate while other teams keyed in on Stastny and his #1 line.

Hunter is under rated guy IMO, if he plays in 06 gets HHOF consideration IMO.

2)Hunter didn't play often on the PP which Goulet and Stastny did more often than with Hunter

It's similar to Glenn Anderson in Edmonton who didn't play alot with Wayne but still got a large amount of direct positive influence by being on the same team.

Goulet probably scores alot of goals in the high flying 80's on any team, I just think the Stastny factor pushed him over the edge into HHOF territory. Imagine if Gartner had a center like Stastny?


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07-24-2012, 07:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Curious to know if the people voting Stastny would also take Dale Hawerchuk, Denis Savard, and Jari Kurri over Ray Bourque for the 1980s too.
I have them

Stastny/Bourque
Hawerchuck
Kurri
Savard

For the guys you listed and in that order.

To be fair though Dmen have a potentially longer shelf life than forwards.

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07-24-2012, 09:12 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Two things here

1) Hunter was Goulet 5-5 most common line mate while other teams keyed in on Stastny and his #1 line.

Hunter is under rated guy IMO, if he plays in 06 gets HHOF consideration IMO.
So Goulet got more points by being on the second line and facing second-rate checkers?

Playing with Stastny would outweigh that. Assuming they had chemistry, he'd score more on the 1st line with Stastny, top checkers or not.

As for Hunter, sure, if he had point totals like that in the O6... but he wouldn't have. As decent a scorer as he was until about 1993, without his Quebec years he doesn't have a great offensive resume. And when you consider his linemate was significantly better, he got more points than he probably "deserved" himself.

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07-24-2012, 10:20 PM
  #58
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I said Bourque early in this thread and having watched that entire decade say so without hesitation. The next name I think of has been panned in this thread however, despite some pretty long lists of 'contenders' some posters have assembled.

I am surprised that only one person has even mentioned Mark Messier. He was a 1st team all-star in 1982 and 1983 and the 1984 Conn Smythe trophy winner in the first of four Stanley Cups that decade (am not including the 1990 Hart and cup season), arguably the dynasty's true leader (I say that as someone who was at the games and saying what many said at the time), with 1000+ PIMs that decade and 200 NHL playoff points between 1980-89.

Certainly in terms of "dominant" players of the eighties, Mark Messier has to be in any discussion of the Top 5 players.


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07-25-2012, 12:02 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So Goulet got more points by being on the second line and facing second-rate checkers?

Playing with Stastny would outweigh that. Assuming they had chemistry, he'd score more on the 1st line with Stastny, top checkers or not.

As for Hunter, sure, if he had point totals like that in the O6... but he wouldn't have. As decent a scorer as he was until about 1993, without his Quebec years he doesn't have a great offensive resume. And when you consider his linemate was significantly better, he got more points than he probably "deserved" himself.
The Hunter comment was more for the type of player he was a very gritty 2 way guy who would have been more appreciated, and done well in the playoffs in 06 era, more than in the high scoring 80's.

Also for Goulet and Stastny it would be interesting to see if anyone has numbers of how often they did play together and especially on the PP.

hunter also did okay scoring wise with decent players and more PP time in Washington in his early 30's until injuries, and that suspension thing, caught up with him.

Picture a guy like him or Pat Verbeek in the 50's or 60's with the Leafs and they would have fared better historically IMO.

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07-26-2012, 12:58 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Bourque would likely not have put up the numbers Coffey did. Coffey was flat out better offensively then Bourque. Also I don't think he was a nightmare defensively but he wasn't close to Bourque on defence obviously.

Sure Coffey played with Gretzky and Mario, but he was insanely dominant. He was, in his 20's the best skater by far in the NHL. He was a HUGE part of Gretzky and Mario's successes, Gretzky far more then Mario. Of all the 160+ point seasons Coffey was on Mario or Gretzky's teams in all but 1 of them I think. There is a reason for that, and it wasn't just luck in Coffey being with 66 or 99 at the right times in their careers.

He finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th in points in seasons in the 80's as a defenceman. In 1986 he was 7th in goals and set the defence record for defencemen with 48.

From 1982 (his second season) to 1989 he played in 579 games and got 817 points. Over 8 seasons he averaged in an 80 game season 112 points. That was his level of production from age 20 to 27 from 1982-1989, as a defenceman. Sure he played with Gretzky for 6 of those seasons and Mario for 2 of them, but that is just sick production. Plus he got 111 playoff points in those 8 seasons and 3 Stanley Cups.

Bourque is far better overall, and ranks higher on my defenceman list for career. But if you want to know the 3rd most DOMINANT player of the 80's I'll pick Coffey. If I picked the second best player on the Gretzky-era Oilers I'll pick Coffey over Messier or Kurri. That is the 80-88 era Oilers. Overall Messier topped him after Gretzky left Edmonton but while all the best were on the Oilers, Coffey was the second best, the second most important, the second most dominant, the second most unique.

Also I'll take Coffey as just the FREAK of the time after 99 and 66. He defies comparision, except to Orr. Bourque was perfect, and he played defence perfectly in a more traditional way. 66 and 99 were just different, outliers, that were entirely unique and utterly masterful. Coffey was the other player of the 80's that would get that kind of description. He was a 4th forward sometimes, he was as responsible or MORE then Gretzky for the NHL changing the rules on 4-4 for coincidental minors along with Gretzky.

I guess it upsets me when people say terribly negative things about Coffey. Was he perfect in all aspects of the game? No. Was he was brilliant as Potvin or Bourque or Lidstrom overall? No. But if you make terrible scathing criticisms like he was terrible defensively, you just don't get it. It is as dumb as criticizing Gretzky for not fighting or Mario for not back checking. Coffey was absoutely brilliant at what he did. And he did EXACTLY what he should have done with his talents. He was one of the most exciting players to watch play EVER. He was lucky to play with two of the best players ever, but he was and would have been brilliant regardless of who he played with. Maybe too many posters here are young and saw a horrible version of Coffey after he left Detroit and kept playing for a few more years? I don't know. Coffey was a winner. He was brilliant and he was not terrible defensively. He didn't concentrate on defence, UNLESS HE NEEDED TO. Like in the playoffs in close series, at the end of close games. He made defensive plays no one else could make. The Oilers, or many other teams in the 80's in the Western Conference didn't play like teams do now. Get a small lead and sit on it. They kept pushing to score all the time. Coffey was supposed to score goals and set up goals and gain possession of the puck and keep it or pass it. He did that all game long. He wasn't supposed to block shots or play a safe game. It would have been stupid to waste his talents in trying to play a typical defenceman's game. That was for his pairing partner. It isn't a weakness of Coffey, he wasn't typical. Those that criticize him defensively seem not to understand his purpose.
Excellent post, and I think you summed up the arguement for Coffey perfectly. No one is saying he was better than Bourque (or Lidstrom later, etc). But where he loses out to many of these guys is in his longevity - especially compared to guys like those two, who had exceptional longevity and maintained their elite level play forever. Coffey didn't. But for that decade, he was amazing.

I agree too that he was the 2nd best Oiler after Gretzky. Messier had the better career and was the better player overall, but again much of that comes from his longevity and really peak play in the 90's. For most the 80's he was actually being outscored by Coffey. I'm not saying he should be #3 for the decade, but he is certainly a solid candidate and deserves to be in the discussion.

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07-26-2012, 01:30 AM
  #61
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If you include non-NHLers, I honestly can't see Messier as top 5.

You have Wayne and Mario. Then I can't see Messier beating out Bourque, Coffey, Makarov, or Fetisov for the decade. Even Kurri was generally considered above Messier on the pecking order for the 1980s. Just looking at the 80s omits Messier's 2 Hart Trophies, his runner-up finish, and his 2 Cups as captain.

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07-26-2012, 09:20 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you include non-NHLers, I honestly can't see Messier as top 5.

You have Wayne and Mario. Then I can't see Messier beating out Bourque, Coffey, Makarov, or Fetisov for the decade. Even Kurri was generally considered above Messier on the pecking order for the 1980s. Just looking at the 80s omits Messier's 2 Hart Trophies, his runner-up finish, and his 2 Cups as captain.
Maybe. But by 1987 the scouting reports were calling him 3rd in the game after Wayne and Mario.

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07-28-2012, 01:54 PM
  #63
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Denis Savard deserves mention.

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07-28-2012, 07:37 PM
  #64
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I'm going with Coffey. I think he's under rated here. He was a lot more competent defensively than people give him credit for. Offensively he is clearly the second greatest defenseman ever. Overall I tend to rank him below Bourque, Potvin and Lidstrom myself but I often feel guilty about it.

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07-28-2012, 11:05 PM
  #65
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Anyone who thinks Coffey was more DOMINANT than Messier on the Oilers dynasty didn't watch it. Full stop. And #7 is my fav number because I grew up with Coffey as my favorite player. I thought Messier dirty and cheap but man did he dominate the ice! The only thing more absurd than thinking Coffey more doiminant than Messier in Edmonton is thinking that Kurri was!

All four are all-time greats, but there was a clear difference in the Oilers dynasty between the impact of Gretzky and Messier, and those of Coffey and Kurri, a gap, to be sure.

Maybe this should be a poll on the Oilers Board, where many saw them play in the eighties (I'm from B.C. but the Oilers were more exciting than my Canucks post-'82)..

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07-29-2012, 12:34 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Anyone who thinks Coffey was more DOMINANT than Messier on the Oilers dynasty didn't watch it. Full stop. And #7 is my fav number because I grew up with Coffey as my favorite player. I thought Messier dirty and cheap but man did he dominate the ice! The only thing more absurd than thinking Coffey more doiminant than Messier in Edmonton is thinking that Kurri was!

All four are all-time greats, but there was a clear difference in the Oilers dynasty between the impact of Gretzky and Messier, and those of Coffey and Kurri, a gap, to be sure.

Maybe this should be a poll on the Oilers Board, where many saw them play in the eighties (I'm from B.C. but the Oilers were more exciting than my Canucks post-'82)..
I've had both in the MLD, and in my research I am sure I recall mentions of both of them being the second most important member of the team after Wayne. Earlier on, it was more Coffey. Later on, more Messier.

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