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Old
07-29-2012, 04:43 AM
  #51
Xylo
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I remember seeing McBain back in 09-10 finishing the season with us scoring 10 points (3g, 7a) in 14 games and thinking, man this kid has potential.

A couple years later, and I feel the same way. Now with a more aggressive system, I think there's a lot of aspects to his game that will become more apparent. Mostly positive aspects.

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07-29-2012, 07:55 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Caniac1234 View Post
Rask isn't ready,dalpe and nash both sucked when they were called up last season and welsh hasn't shown anything special so thats why I'm saying trade mcbain for a 3rd line center,or sign arnott or dominic moore to a 1 year deal to let rask develop.
I thought Nash looked pretty good actually. Positionally solid, initiated contact, looked like a capable face off guy. I'm not so desperate to capitalize on this one year that I think we sign an arnott or Moore. We have candidates. If its a trade for someone who fits the concept then fine. Someone young enough to be part of the core. Semin shouldn't the changing the whole idea of the team. Prior to semin I didn't think we wanted guys like these.

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07-29-2012, 07:56 AM
  #53
Boom Boom Anton
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Our "bottom 6" forward depth is fine, and that's been our problem for the last few years. Our "top 6" forward depth? Well, that is pretty weak. Our defensive depth is likely still a couple years off. Levi is still very raw, Biega and Alt are still in college for another year minimum, and likely will need some AHL time after that. Murphy is a question mark and we'll find out quickly if Sanguinetti is really ready to play or not.

I'm more with Bleedgreen. Right now, the "tentative" bottom six is Tlusty-Welsh-LaRose, Nodl-Brent-Dwyer, Extra: Stewart, Wallace. Jr. has mentioned about picking up another physical bottom forward with "grit" so make that 9 bottom six players (along with Bowman, Sutter, and Samson who I believe all could play in the bottom 6/4th line). Parting with a couple of those guys won't materially hurt this team IMO and will still leave plenty of guys to play in Charlotte. Bowman wasn't even in Charlotte for 1/2 the season last year anyhow. On the flipside, these guys don't have much value either, but picks / prospects could be part of the deal.

It's all hypothetical though. JR. pretty much said he was done on defense, so I don't believe he will make a change unless an injury occurs early in the season or unless the defense is playing terrible. Maybe at the deadline depending on how the team is playing. I hope I eat crow on this, but I am very concerned about the make-up of this defense and expect that to be the Achilles heel.

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07-29-2012, 03:11 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
mcbain for rich peverly?!?


now ive seen everything.
Peverley, like Sutter, is one of those guys who can really impact a game from the third line. Both need to be seen regularly to be appreciated -- not many 3Cs give you a happy feeling when they're on the ice. Adding Peverley upgrades our third line from "let's hope this rookie doesn't screw us" to Cup run quality. Meaning we have one of the best top-9 groups in the league. That's a big enough deal to be worth McBain.


Quote:
we have too many forwards and d depth is crucial. we should move a couple of these bottom six guys for another d.
We have too many bottom-6 forwards, but several of them are garbage. We need more quality and less quantity.

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07-29-2012, 03:50 PM
  #55
impeach estaalo
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I don't think they're going to trade someone who is at worst a #5 defenseman making $1.8M for the next two years unless they are blown away with an offer. Peverley makes no sense, he's a third liner on this team and makes $3.25M for four years, which is a recipe for disaster on a team that has a ton of money locked up in Staal+Staal+Ruutu and needs to give new contracts to Skinner and potentially Semin after this season.

I think there's enough money tied up on forwards as it is.


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Old
07-29-2012, 03:54 PM
  #56
Anton Dubinchuk
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Originally Posted by We Like Our Group View Post
I don't think they're going to trade someone who is at worst a #5 defenseman making $1.8M for the next two years unless they are blown away with an offer. Peverley makes no sense, he's a third liner on this team and makes $3.25M for four years, which is a recipe for disaster on a team that has a ton of money locked up in Staal+Staal+Ruutu, and needs to give new contracts to Skinner and potentially Semin after this season.

I think there's enough money tied up on forwards as it is.
I guess I haven't seen it until now, but MAN is that Ruutu NMC gonna cripple this team...

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07-29-2012, 03:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
I guess I haven't seen it until now, but MAN is that Ruutu NMC gonna cripple this team...
Doesn't really matter. $4.75M/yr for a useless player is basically a NMC in itself.

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07-29-2012, 04:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by We Like Our Group View Post
Doesn't really matter, $4.75M/yr for a useless player is basically a NMC in itself.
Not THIS offseason it wouldn't be... It'd probably be enough to get us Hjalmarsson or Bouwmeester... Not as if that'd help, but if we could get a similar quality player on an expiring contract that'd help a ton. All for moot with the NMC...

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Old
07-29-2012, 05:15 PM
  #59
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Why is everyone so down on Ruutu? He can score 20 goals if healthy, and he's just the kind of player you want in the playoffs. I know his NMC doesn't give us much flexibility, but I think he's worth what we're paying him. Twenty-goal scorers don't grow on trees.

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07-29-2012, 05:23 PM
  #60
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He's overpaid for what he brings (but then, so is every other FA).

He's probably going to get injured at some point.

But the main problem is that he never really meshed with Staal. And while Ruutu is our best complimentary player, he's just that: a complimentary player. What good is a complimentary player if they don't mesh with your one star player?

In a vacuum, Ruutu >> Jokinen. But Ruutu never really developed chemistry with anyone outside of Jokinen, to the point that putting Chad LaRose on the top line was a better option than Ruutu.

With the emergence of Skinner and the acquisition of Semin and S11, odds are Ruutu will find someone he can produce with. Ideally, it's S11 and Skinner (he already showed flashes of something with Skinner), so I think a 25-20 year and 250+ hits are what to expect.

EDIT: Plus, it's pretty damning that the only time he scores is when the opposition no longer has a vested interest in the immediate outcome of the game.

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07-29-2012, 05:34 PM
  #61
impeach estaalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urn View Post
Why is everyone so down on Ruutu? He can score 20 goals if healthy, and he's just the kind of player you want in the playoffs. I know his NMC doesn't give us much flexibility, but I think he's worth what we're paying him. Twenty-goal scorers don't grow on trees.
Because he's terrible on the powerplay, doesn't kill penalties and needs to be sheltered away from tough competition in order to be effective at even strength.

Paying someone $4.75M/yr to score 40 points against other team's third liners and second/third pairing D doesn't make sense.

You're right, twenty goal scorers don't grow on trees. But most players capable of twenty goals actually do other things, such as play defense and/or contribute on special teams. Ruutu doesn't. And he's not hit-everything-that-moves physical anymore, he's Chad LaRose/Craig Adams physical. You know, hit a guy two seconds after he's already completed an outlet pass and the waddle your way up the ice 40 feet behind the play.

I don't think Ruutu is here if Rutherford knows that he's getting J. Staal+Semin and that Tlusty was about to demonstrate some actual usefulness. When Ruutu was re-signed, Rutherford is thinking that he has three other top six forwards and nothing else close to it. Now he has five other top six forwards and a tweener in Tlusty. JR overpaid because he was dealing from a position of weakness.

Ruutu is anywhere from the 5th to the 7th best forward on this team depending on one's opinion of Jokinen and Tlusty, and that's not good enough to be making $4.75M/yr for four years with a NMC.

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07-29-2012, 05:37 PM
  #62
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I agree that he was never what Staal needed, but so what? That's in the past. We got two elite potential linemates for Staal, allowing Ruutu to be his pretty-good-but-not-that-good self with Skinner or Tlusty or whoever. Having a handful of guys who if playing 82 games can be counted on to score at least 15 and might even hit 20 (Ruutu, LaRose, Tlusty, Jokinen) is a great addition to a group of top guns like Semin, the Staals, and Skinner, cause we don't have to count on them all to be "on" every night. I don't know why everyone is upset that we can't cut one of those guys loose--why would we want to?

I should admit, I haven't done any salary number crunching, and if someone has reason to think that Ruutu's contract may be the difference between us being able to extend Skinner and not being able to extend Skinner, then I agree that it is a problem. But if we make a good run this year and get a lot of revenue, I think Karmanos would be willing to shell out more than he'd like to to keep Skinner and Semin (if he works out here). The cap probably won't be an issue.

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07-29-2012, 05:46 PM
  #63
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On crosspost with We Like Our Group:

You make some good points, but I'd take some of those statements with a grain of salt. I've seen you make a lot of very strong general statements about what various players can and cannot do, and I just don't think they're all that accurate.

About Ruutu's physicality:
-There's still something to be said for hitting a guy after he makes an outlet pass, especially in the playoffs.
-I don't have a videographic memory, and it didn't occur to me to take specific note of this while watching last season, but I just have a hard time believing that Ruutu is only physical in the way you describe.
-If he ends up healthy this coming season, he'll automatically be a lot better.

I'll change my mind on it being worth it to pay him 4.75 million if someone can convince me that this will hamper our ability to sign other players we need. The NHL isn't a perfect market where you can just decide to find a player worth exactly 4.75 million and pay him that. There are issues of availability, and we can't just replace Ruutu with someone just as good for less. Most really good teams have around 5-6 twenty-goal scorers, and I'd be willing to pay extra to get that 6th guy to make our offense elite.

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Old
07-29-2012, 06:16 PM
  #64
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I think it's also worth noting that with the roster additions, Ruutu is now more properly slotted and his minutes should follow suit. He was never a guy to shoulder a big load in terms of scoring but the Canes expected him to with the terrible top 6 structure. I expect his game to pick back up now that he can focus on a more limited role and responsibility. He was acquired as a complimentary piece and that is still what he is. And the price tag is still very much in line with the open market

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07-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by faulkingdynamic View Post
I think it's also worth noting that with the roster additions, Ruutu is now more properly slotted and his minutes should follow suit. He was never a guy to shoulder a big load in terms of scoring but the Canes expected him to with the terrible top 6 structure. I expect his game to pick back up now that he can focus on a more limited role and responsibility. He was acquired as a complimentary piece and that is still what he is. And the price tag is still very much in line with the open market
No, he sucks, kill him

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07-29-2012, 06:39 PM
  #66
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No, he sucks, kill him
This is the third or fourth time you've threatened a player with death this week.

When can we hire you to coach/motivate the Checkers?

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07-29-2012, 06:45 PM
  #67
tarheelhockey
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I think there's enough money tied up on forwards as it is.
Let's revisit that sentiment after we know the results of our "pray a rookie can hold down a top-9 spot for 82 games" strategy.

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07-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #68
impeach estaalo
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Let's revisit that sentiment after we know the results of our "pray a rookie can hold down a top-9 spot for 82 games" strategy.
I'd gladly have a bottle of shampoo center our third line every year if it meant not having an AHL defense.

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07-29-2012, 07:06 PM
  #69
tarheelhockey
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I'd gladly have a bottle of shampoo center our third line every year if it meant not having an AHL defense.
I'd trade a bottom-pair defenseman for an above-average 3C any day.

Different strokes.

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07-29-2012, 07:08 PM
  #70
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I know Welsh is a rookie. But he's a 6'3 200lb+ 24 year old rookie.

This is not a 20 year old making the jump from juniors. Not that this makes him any type of certainty. But I imagine when you have a big rookie in their mid-20's, there's going to be less variance.

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07-29-2012, 07:16 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'd trade a bottom-pair defenseman for an above-average 3C any day.

Different strokes.
We don't know what we have yet. We do know the top 6 has 5 guys who played Center last year. This is not even close to an urgent issue yet I don't think.

McBain is one of very few chips we have. I don't know that playing it before the season starts to fix a problem that might not exist is the way to go. Particularly a 3C problem.

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07-29-2012, 07:36 PM
  #72
tarheelhockey
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We don't know what we have yet. We do know the top 6 has 5 guys who played Center last year. This is not even close to an urgent issue yet I don't think.

McBain is one of very few chips we have. I don't know that playing it before the season starts to fix a problem that might not exist is the way to go. Particularly a 3C problem.
Are we talking strictly about preseason? We have till mid-March...

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Old
07-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Anton Callahan View Post
This is the third or fourth time you've threatened a player with death this week.

When can we hire you to coach/motivate the Checkers?
Paul Maurice could coach the Checkers better.

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07-29-2012, 09:03 PM
  #74
halleJOKEL
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Paul Maurice could coach the Checkers better.
Better than Jeff Daniels or better than WLOG?

Honestly, it will be hard to convince me Paul Maurice can coach any team better than either of those two options.

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Old
07-30-2012, 02:04 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
I know Welsh is a rookie. But he's a 6'3 200lb+ 24 year old rookie.

This is not a 20 year old making the jump from juniors. Not that this makes him any type of certainty. But I imagine when you have a big rookie in their mid-20's, there's going to be less variance.
This.

Presumably, our 3rd line is gonna be Tlusty//Welsh//LaRose. That's two 20 goal wingers, one of which hits like a tank and has the best work ethic on the team, and the other has just enough flash and dazzle in him to make SportsCentre once or twice a season. Welsh is a rookie, but I can't really think of better linemates for him.

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