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Visnovsky trying to void trade to Isles - UPDATE: More Drama (post #510)

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Old
07-28-2012, 07:45 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
After the 2007 year regulars at the time to these boards said that the Islanders' lineup was better going into the next year (2008) than it was the previous. The few who said that was crazy was told the sky was falling. Well guess what? The sky did fall-5 years in a row.
Most could argue that a goalie is the most important player on a hockey team

In 2006-2007 DP posted a 32-19-9 record. We made the playoffs that year with Dubie because DP was injured.

The next year DP had a sub par year 26-28-7 playing one more game than the previous year (63 as apposed to 62 games in the year prior)

DP has played a whopping 47 games in the last 4 years. That averages to almost 12 a season.

Maybe DP being so injured + him being Wang's boy has as much to do with the team being bottom rung for 5 years as Snow does??!?!?Maybe???

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07-29-2012, 08:09 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
Saving money.
Let me refresh your memory, this is what you said:

Quote:
All this .500 mediocre math mumbo jumbo is meaningless. Bottom line is in Bettman's NHL of parity where EVERY team has a shot, NYI haven't come close for 5 years and are out of the race by Thanksgiving. Pathetic.
What does ANY of that have to do with the Islanders radio station?

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07-29-2012, 08:14 AM
  #303
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So the team does not have a better farm system? Hypothetically if everyone they have now stays in the system, even if they don't go out and get free agents, won't they be better just based on homegrown talent than they have been? When all these guys mature you don't think there is talent to be a playoff team or a contender? Isn't the team the #2 rated farm system now? IMO this team has spent the last 4 years rebuilding from the ground up. It is a slow process in hockey when you have nothing and are a small market but this team has much more potential than what we had 3 years ago. From where I sit there is much more reason to be optimistic now than the last few years.
This... absolutely this! Some people refuse to acknowledge the strides this franchise has made the last few years. They just look at the place they finished, not even taking the time to see how the roster has improved every single year..... they don't even consider looking at how much the farm system has improved. It's just always with the "sky is falling" garbage.

No one can complain about everyone else not giving this team a fair shake, when our own fans are the worst culprits. Give credit, where credit is due..... and if the team gives you no joy, as it clearly seems with a lot of you guys..... go root for another one, we won't miss the belly aching.

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07-29-2012, 09:14 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
And they were rebuilding those years, so....
aaaah. the key point that the Chicken Little's leave out.

scenario: every team finishes with 82 points. 1 team finishes with 83, and the Isles finish with 81. we're bottom feeders, right?

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07-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I'm not losing sight of anything. 79 points is almost NHL .500, and to me that is a middling team. For someone to say the Islanders need 92 points to be a middling team is exaggerating how bad they are IMO.

Yes, a WC team with 92 points was out of the PO's..... the Islanders also play in the toughest division in the NHL. This is all moot, as I've already pointed out that IMO a team that on average wins as much as it loses should be considered mediocre.
But it isn't NHL 500 anymore. A team in the middle of the standings under the old system would literally be at mathematical 500. Under the new rules with OTL a team at 500 is no longer in the middle. Instead they are likely to be in the bottom end of the pool. The average mark moved about ten points above 500 with the current system.

Again, I will go to the standings and ask you how being bottom 5 is average?

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07-29-2012, 01:38 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
I suppose they were rebuilding the radio coverage, the ops department, the front office and amateur scouting too. Rebuilding is an excuse for not spending money. There's no rebuild.
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Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
When you're rock bottom you can ONLY go up.....barely. Not spending is the priority nothing else.
So is there no rebuild or some improvement? The priority seems clear to me, build from the ground up as we can't compete on free agents. If there is no rebuild then they are not going anywhere. With the talent in the organization right now, this team should be a playoff team within the next few years. If you disagree, all i can say is that you are entitled to your opinion but with the #2 farm system and the young core we have now, I feel very comfortable saying that this team is on the cusp of being competitive for a number of years to come. They may be a year or 2 away from being a pretty good team, but it is coming. It must be awful to be a fan if you can't have some optimism.

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07-29-2012, 02:35 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
This... absolutely this! Some people refuse to acknowledge the strides this franchise has made the last few years. They just look at the place they finished, not even taking the time to see how the roster has improved every single year..... they don't even consider looking at how much the farm system has improved. It's just always with the "sky is falling" garbage.

No one can complain about everyone else not giving this team a fair shake, when our own fans are the worst culprits. Give credit, where credit is due..... and if the team gives you no joy, as it clearly seems with a lot of you guys..... go root for another one, we won't miss the belly aching.
The fact remains that we finished with the fourth worst record overall. 26 teams finished with a better record than us. Only 3 teams finished with a worse record. And while there were four teams that finished less than four points ahead of us, even if we had finished ahead of them we would still be near the bottom, and well out of a playoff spot.

".500" is not average in hockey (thanks to the stupid points system). The average point total last season was 92 points. We were 13 points below that. The extra points awarded in OT and shootouts really skew records toward looking much better than they really are. Take away points from shootout wins and we finish with 72 points, as significantly under .500 as it appears to be. If instead OT and shootout losses were counted the same as regular losses, our record becomes 34-48. So lets stop deluding ourselves that this team was close to an actual .500; there is still MUCH work to be done.

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07-29-2012, 03:51 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I'm not losing sight of anything. 79 points is almost NHL .500, and to me that is a middling team. For someone to say the Islanders need 92 points to be a middling team is exaggerating how bad they are IMO.

Yes, a WC team with 92 points was out of the PO's..... the Islanders also play in the toughest division in the NHL. This is all moot, as I've already pointed out that IMO a team that on average wins as much as it loses should be considered mediocre.
A middling team would be just that....a team in the middle. What's the median of 1-15? 8. 8 by definition is the exact middle of 1-15. .500 teams arent anywhere near 8th place.

Last year the 8th place team out of 15 (or the middle team) had 92 points.

We can all change the definitions of words to make us feel better about the team we cheer for. But at the end of the day that's all we are doing. The islanders suck and have sucked for the past 5 years. And in 2007 they were mediocre at 8th place. They didn't even deserve to be on the ice against the sabres.

No more excuses. They need to get the job done.

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07-29-2012, 04:36 PM
  #309
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When is this going to be put to bed? Is the amount of time that's been allowed to elapse an indication that he'll be an Islander either way?

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07-29-2012, 05:40 PM
  #310
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When is this going to be put to bed? Is the amount of time that's been allowed to elapse an indication that he'll be an Islander either way?
Just a feeling but the longer this goes on the more I think that if the trade is valid that he'll go to Europe. If they decided within a week it would have been more likely that he would have come here and played in a professional manner, but now his expectations may have changed. Again just a feeling but I think that he'll only be happy in California or Europe.

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07-29-2012, 08:15 PM
  #311
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Just a feeling but the longer this goes on the more I think that if the trade is valid that he'll go to Europe. If they decided within a week it would have been more likely that he would have come here and played in a professional manner, but now his expectations may have changed. Again just a feeling but I think that he'll only be happy in California or Europe.
Where in Europe would he go? There are agreements between the NHL every major European league. Going to Europe is not really an option if you are under contract and don't have team permission.

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07-29-2012, 09:07 PM
  #312
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Where in Europe would he go? There are agreements between the NHL every major European league. Going to Europe is not really an option if you are under contract and don't have team permission.
My mistake. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be in that area. He may have no choice but the Islanders but I don't think that his heart will be in it and we may see a Brian Rolston type effort. I hope that I'm wrong.

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07-29-2012, 09:15 PM
  #313
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Leafs fan here to state for the record, I wish the best for the once storied Islanders franchise.

Any professional NHL player blocking a trade to any club (I know, I know, there are mechanisms which avail would be and actual NHL players to have a say in the final destination they eventually play in...) is ridiculous.

These prviledged men seem to forget the exceptional position theyre in, irrespective of the club, be it the Predators, Blue Jackets or Islanders.

End of rant. All the best.

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07-29-2012, 09:17 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
Leafs fan here to state for the record, I wish the best for the once storied Islanders franchise.

Any professional NHL player blocking a trade to any club (I know, I know, there are mechanisms which avail would be and actual NHL players to have a say in the final destination they eventually play in...) is ridiculous.

These prviledged men seem to forget the exceptional position theyre in, irrespective of the club, be it the Predators, Blue Jackets or Islanders.

End of rant. All the best.
Thank you-same to you.

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07-30-2012, 11:09 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
This... absolutely this! Some people refuse to acknowledge the strides this franchise has made the last few years. They just look at the place they finished, not even taking the time to see how the roster has improved every single year..... they don't even consider looking at how much the farm system has improved. It's just always with the "sky is falling" garbage.

No one can complain about everyone else not giving this team a fair shake, when our own fans are the worst culprits. Give credit, where credit is due..... and if the team gives you no joy, as it clearly seems with a lot of you guys..... go root for another one, we won't miss the belly aching.
The roster has not improved. If we are not supposed to evaluate on actual results, then please explain what criteria to use? Are we supposed to take Snow and Wang's word for it?

As for the improved farm system, I won't argue that. What I ask is: how can it not improve when you continuously fail every season? Each year we get a top 5 pick, so it's pretty hard not to add a big piece of potential. If a GM position only requires drafting highly rated 18 year olds and doing the bare minimum to support the current NHL roster, then sign me up.

I'm not trying to be negative and I do recognize that there are several bright spots to build on. But after watching actual NHL teams continuously strive for success, it is sickening to watch what goes on here on a daily basis.

It is not ridiculous to demand more than 26th place....especially after 5 straight years of it.

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07-30-2012, 11:39 AM
  #316
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aaaah. the key point that the Chicken Little's leave out.

scenario: every team finishes with 82 points. 1 team finishes with 83, and the Isles finish with 81. we're bottom feeders, right?
Don't forget to add we would then lose the draft lottery too


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07-30-2012, 03:30 PM
  #317
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So has any time table been given? I mean it this nonsense going to drag on August, and then into training camp?

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07-30-2012, 05:02 PM
  #318
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So has any time table been given? I mean it this nonsense going to drag on August, and then into training camp?
I would assume a resolution needs to come about in the near future. The fact we haven't heard anything is probably a good thing, but who really knows what Visnovsky's true intentions are?

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07-30-2012, 05:09 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by LongIslandCircus View Post
The roster has not improved. If we are not supposed to evaluate on actual results, then please explain what criteria to use? Are we supposed to take Snow and Wang's word for it?

As for the improved farm system, I won't argue that. What I ask is: how can it not improve when you continuously fail every season? Each year we get a top 5 pick, so it's pretty hard not to add a big piece of potential. If a GM position only requires drafting highly rated 18 year olds and doing the bare minimum to support the current NHL roster, then sign me up.

I'm not trying to be negative and I do recognize that there are several bright spots to build on. But after watching actual NHL teams continuously strive for success, it is sickening to watch what goes on here on a daily basis.

It is not ridiculous to demand more than 26th place....especially after 5 straight years of it.
I don't think that we purposely don't ask for more, or being an apologist or too forgiving (at least in my case; as I can only speak for myself.)

Wang has foolishly allocated almost $7M in contracts that are obviously not worth their payouts (yes, some of this is hindsight) in DiPietro & Yashin, and doesn't wish to spend to enhance the on-ice product because "we not getting killed out there." This is obvious to GM's around the league, agents and players, so players who don't see themselves benefitting from taking a role on this club for a contract that makes sense to them will hold off and players who are largely considered reclamation projects or 4th liners will come simply because they have a standing offer.

(i.e.; why would Semin sign here for $2M-$3M when there's always going to be a Rutherford or a Fletcher out there looking to make a splash who has the financial backing to do so? + guys like Boyes, Carkner and Boulton are not expensive and may actually try worth a damn....and I have a good feeling about Carkner, for the record.)

So there's ownership. As for management, rather than shift the blame to his boss' wallet, plays the politico game and simply states that there are no restrictions when the hockey world knows the facts are in stark contrast. Since he can't go and get true market talent in the summer, management is forced to rely on reclamation projects while the prospect vault improves, eventually forcing it's way into the NHL roster, rendering the placeholders unnecessary. There are some moves made for value that show a little bit of savvy in finding value (Moulson, Nabokov, Parenteau, Grabner, Wisniewski) which is a good thing, because he actually HAS to. Rather than going the Milbury route of getting bored/personally angry with a player and trading them to jumpstart the team, this approach is more bent towards eventually creating one long solid barrage of prospects. Problem is, there are casualties.....like when a farm system is so decimated that a kid (namely Bailey) gets fired directly into the NHL because there was to little talent @ center in the system that at one point he actually was the 2nd or 3rd best center in the entire system even coming out of the OHL.

I don't refrain from desiring better, though I see a little logic in the way that "The Plan" is almost built in simultaneous compliance and negation of ownership's unwillingness to join the arms race and pull an Ottawa-style rebuild, let alone Philadelphia's. It's painful and it takes one hell of a lot longer, but it makes sense if the previous way things were done was haphazard and made teams with short half-lives. The closest this team had to anything that could have been consistently solid was in 2002 vs. Toronto, and when the team lost Peca, the team lost it's captain and it's attitude at the time.

Fact is, going the way we're going, we need to see the players we have grow into these roles before we can say whether or not the roster's improved or not, as the vast majority of the improvements are built to come from within. We can't assume that the team is simply unimproved as we haven't see what possible growth/improvements these guys come into the season with.

Sorry to go off-topic. If VIsno signs, there's no way one can call the D unimproved. It's even likely better with Carkner & Donovan as long as the 6th D isn't cordwood.

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07-30-2012, 05:20 PM
  #320
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Viz is dead to me. We don't need him.

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07-30-2012, 05:41 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Caustic Acrostic View Post
I don't think that we purposely don't ask for more, or being an apologist or too forgiving (at least in my case; as I can only speak for myself.)

Wang has foolishly allocated almost $7M in contracts that are obviously not worth their payouts (yes, some of this is hindsight) in DiPietro & Yashin, and doesn't wish to spend to enhance the on-ice product because "we not getting killed out there." This is obvious to GM's around the league, agents and players, so players who don't see themselves benefitting from taking a role on this club for a contract that makes sense to them will hold off and players who are largely considered reclamation projects or 4th liners will come simply because they have a standing offer.

(i.e.; why would Semin sign here for $2M-$3M when there's always going to be a Rutherford or a Fletcher out there looking to make a splash who has the financial backing to do so? + guys like Boyes, Carkner and Boulton are not expensive and may actually try worth a damn....and I have a good feeling about Carkner, for the record.)

So there's ownership. As for management, rather than shift the blame to his boss' wallet, plays the politico game and simply states that there are no restrictions when the hockey world knows the facts are in stark contrast. Since he can't go and get true market talent in the summer, management is forced to rely on reclamation projects while the prospect vault improves, eventually forcing it's way into the NHL roster, rendering the placeholders unnecessary. There are some moves made for value that show a little bit of savvy in finding value (Moulson, Nabokov, Parenteau, Grabner, Wisniewski) which is a good thing, because he actually HAS to. Rather than going the Milbury route of getting bored/personally angry with a player and trading them to jumpstart the team, this approach is more bent towards eventually creating one long solid barrage of prospects. Problem is, there are casualties.....like when a farm system is so decimated that a kid (namely Bailey) gets fired directly into the NHL because there was to little talent @ center in the system that at one point he actually was the 2nd or 3rd best center in the entire system even coming out of the OHL.

I don't refrain from desiring better, though I see a little logic in the way that "The Plan" is almost built in simultaneous compliance and negation of ownership's unwillingness to join the arms race and pull an Ottawa-style rebuild, let alone Philadelphia's. It's painful and it takes one hell of a lot longer, but it makes sense if the previous way things were done was haphazard and made teams with short half-lives. The closest this team had to anything that could have been consistently solid was in 2002 vs. Toronto, and when the team lost Peca, the team lost it's captain and it's attitude at the time.

Fact is, going the way we're going, we need to see the players we have grow into these roles before we can say whether or not the roster's improved or not, as the vast majority of the improvements are built to come from within. We can't assume that the team is simply unimproved as we haven't see what possible growth/improvements these guys come into the season with.

Sorry to go off-topic. If VIsno signs, there's no way one can call the D unimproved. It's even likely better with Carkner & Donovan as long as the 6th D isn't cordwood.

You make some very relevant points and perhaps I should clarify a bit more.

I do not expect a rebuild overnight, especially considering some of the constraints this team is currently facing. The problem I have with our current strategy is that completely neglects crucial elements of a successful rebuild. Youre absolutely right, big name free agents are not waiting in line to come here. But there are other alternatives. There are ways to ensure that prospects that carry so much importance to the long term success of this franchise are not rushed into positions for failure.

The prospect base was built up nicely and I will give Garth credit for that. But when do we take the next step? When do we start supporting the young core we have (via trade) rather than just continuing to draft new blood to replace the young pieces already struggling? Noone wants a Milbury fix, but Id be thrilled if we could put some kind of focus towards actually improving as a team and helping the Bailey's/Neiderrieters to become solid parts of the foundation.

Anyways, I do not want to derail this thread either. We may see some things differently and I am not dismissing some valid points you made. I just expect more.

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07-30-2012, 06:00 PM
  #322
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You make some very relevant points and perhaps I should clarify a bit more.

I do not expect a rebuild overnight, especially considering some of the constraints this team is currently facing. The problem I have with our current strategy is that completely neglects crucial elements of a successful rebuild. Youre absolutely right, big name free agents are not waiting in line to come here. But there are other alternatives. There are ways to ensure that prospects that carry so much importance to the long term success of this franchise are not rushed into positions for failure.

The prospect base was built up nicely and I will give Garth credit for that. But when do we take the next step? When do we start supporting the young core we have (via trade) rather than just continuing to draft new blood to replace the young pieces already struggling? Noone wants a Milbury fix, but Id be thrilled if we could put some kind of focus towards actually improving as a team and helping the Bailey's/Neiderrieters to become solid parts of the foundation.

Anyways, I do not want to derail this thread either. We may see some things differently and I am not dismissing some valid points you made. I just expect more.
We're pretty close to full-agreement, possibly. I was waiting for Snow to swing for the fences on grabbing Bobby Ryan and I still wait for it, as the reports out of Anaheim still hint at him being unhappy there and after seeing what the Jackets got for Nash. I think his style would be the perfect thing on JT's right, and know that obviously Anaheim would rather have players with an upward trend to make the deal. Since they'd be giving up a right winger, there's a fair likelihood they want to good one back. I'd offer them a package with Okposo and go from there.

I too would like to see a trade before the season begins, and maybe the cap ceiling coming down could be something to our benefit. Maybe the league will accost Wang for staying below the limit and use the revenue sharing as a both a carrot and a stick to put more money into the team. There's a slightly better chance of making a deal now since Nash has moved for less than the astronomical return he was expected to garner.

Now, to get back on topic - I'm being really guilty of that here.........we do agree on this; I just see a likely starting point in many attempts at negotiations being Strome, and I'd rather hold on to Strome, Nino & Kabanov and offer up Okposo and a pick or two next year, hopefully with a 1st rounder coming back our way for the chance we'd be taking at removing ourselves from the Seth Jones/Nate MacKinnon lottery without making the playoffs.

I think the youth on the top roster is at or just a tick below that point where you make trades to add (like swooping in for Ryan.) I also see the waters getting muddy regarding contract payouts, their lengths, and almost everything around the looming CBA deadline. I think that makes it a little harder to make a smart reasonable acquisition while the league is still in maximum overdrive on bonuses and long term deals - neither of which I see Wang being amenable to, since he doesn't want to spend, and he's been burnt on long contacts before. I can understand Snow being pensive about dealing certain guys for the sake of being sure the team wouid clear the mediocrity hurdle on it's own and adding to make the team a obvious playoff team.....the patience is maddening.

But yeah, back to point, we see pretty close to eye-to-eye on this one.


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07-30-2012, 06:58 PM
  #323
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So has any time table been given? I mean it this nonsense going to drag on August, and then into training camp?
Yeah... what's going on. You would think this would be a decision that needs to be resolved quicker rather than slower as far as hockey operations are concerned. This isn't a Supreme Court Case or anything...

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07-30-2012, 08:24 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
This... absolutely this! Some people refuse to acknowledge the strides this franchise has made the last few years. They just look at the place they finished, not even taking the time to see how the roster has improved every single year..... they don't even consider looking at how much the farm system has improved. It's just always with the "sky is falling" garbage.

No one can complain about everyone else not giving this team a fair shake, when our own fans are the worst culprits. Give credit, where credit is due..... and if the team gives you no joy, as it clearly seems with a lot of you guys..... go root for another one, we won't miss the belly aching.
You forget one important thing. That even though our farm system is getting better, it is also taking time to develop. While that takes time to develop the chances of us losing great players who are already here increases. Just look at PAP walking away this year. Now since we can't sign anyone, we need to turn to the farm system. No one will be able to fill his role in their first season here. And then we wait another year, and may lose another key player who we replace with someone from BST. Sure we may have better players, but the only way it works is if we can keep all our important players here for a long time.

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07-31-2012, 02:55 AM
  #325
mitchy22
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Yeah... what's going on. You would think this would be a decision that needs to be resolved quicker rather than slower as far as hockey operations are concerned. This isn't a Supreme Court Case or anything...
There are still specific rules in how this will be handled already in place. The grieved against party has to respond within 10 days of the receipt of the grievance. The CBA suggests that the "Grievance Committee" has to meet at least once/month when there is a grievance filed. After all of this, unless a hearing is expedited (because the grievance falls under Article 49 or 50), then the parties can move forward towards arbitration (and the parties get to choose multiple (5) dates for the actual hearing, and then the arbitrator gets up to 30 days to enter a ruling.) There's also appropriate time being necessary for Disclosure that may need to be added in.

I'm curious as to what happens when the grievance is filed and the party has yet to respond (and still has time to do so.) If the grievance was filed on the 23rd, and the grieved upon party has until the next month to answer, does the "Grievance Committee" still meet? I'd suggest they do from a quick reading, but find that a bit odd.

Feel free to peruse through Article 17 of the CBA to see if I've missed anything.

As long as the "Grievance Committee" had met/meets this month, I bet we'll have an agreed upon arbitration date very shortly. I wouldn't be shocked if we hear about it before today is up. If somehow the response wasn't put in until the last possible moment (and the "Grievance Committee still meets, oddly enough) then we'll probably know more next week. I haven't been keeping a firm eye on when the NHL and NHLPA are meeting, but for all we know they could be discussing this issue and settling it.

,
Mitch

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