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Old
07-30-2012, 10:24 AM
  #76
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LotteryForLife View Post
Uhh...How bout no. He's a garbage can
What measurement are you using to come to such a conclusion?
We know it's not viewing, so what statistic are you using to conclude that Sekera is somewhere between a garbage can and an average NHL Defensemen?

How are you comparing him to Hamonic, Streit, etc?

FYI

Sekera had an identical +/- QOC to Hamonic

There roles were nearly identical (shut down matchups, def zone starts)


Last edited by spiny norman: 07-30-2012 at 11:16 PM. Reason: not needed
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Old
07-30-2012, 10:29 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Noreaster96 View Post
But the sabres fan who claimed sekera would be the isles best dman has a clue?
Sekera is right there with Hamonic/McDonald in terms of talent, role, ability, success...

so i don't think the statement is that far off.

What LotteryFan said, sounds just as dumb as a Sabres fan saying Hamonic/McDonald are "garbage/average defensemen".

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07-30-2012, 10:42 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SLAPSHOT723 View Post
We don't really have the room for Vanek, and I doubt Wang would be willing to pay that contract.

What you're asking for sounds like Nielsen, Grabner, Ness, 1st.

Grabner >> Dubinsky
Nielsen = Anisimov
Ness << Erixon
1st = 1st

That would destroy our depth since all we need is a 2nd line center.
Vanek isn't a center, he's about as pure a RW as you're gonna find.

If the Isles came calling about Vanek, I'd listen. Grabner would be the first name out of my mouth. Okposo would be the second, and then we could build from there.

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Old
07-30-2012, 10:44 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjeurekasky View Post
Vanek isn't a center, he's about as pure a RW as you're gonna find.

If the Isles came calling about Vanek, I'd listen. Grabner would be the first name out of my mouth. Okposo would be the second, and then we could build from there.
I didn't say he was a center. I'm saying we need a center, so trading depth for Vanek doesn't make too much sense.

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07-30-2012, 10:47 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by mjeurekasky View Post
Vanek isn't a center, he's about as pure a RW as you're gonna find.

If the Isles came calling about Vanek, I'd listen. Grabner would be the first name out of my mouth. Okposo would be the second, and then we could build from there.
*LW. He prefers LW for the one-timers. He can play either though.

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Old
07-30-2012, 10:50 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SLAPSHOT723 View Post
I didn't say he was a center. I'm saying we need a center, so trading depth for Vanek doesn't make too much sense.
Ooh ok, gotchya, I misinterpreted that and thought you were making that assumption, my bad. I personally don't think the Sabs and Isles make good trading partners at this point in time. I think (short of bringing in Jason Arnott), Buffalo's good to start the year.

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Old
07-30-2012, 11:06 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noreaster96 View Post
But the sabres fan who claimed sekera would be the isles best dman has a clue?
Something strange happened on the Buffalo board this offseason, where it was declared by some Sekera fanboys that he was the best defenseman we have, and many posters started buying it. Anybody that watches the Sabres regularly that doesn't frequent this site knows that Sekera ranks well below Myers and Ehrhoff, and fits in somewhere with Leopold and Regher for 3-5. For me, he comes in at no. 5 in terms of importance to this team. Here's a very in depth analysis that claims Sekera was our 6th best defenseman.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...tes=100&disp=1

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07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Something strange happened on the Buffalo board this offseason, where it was declared by some Sekera fanboys that he was the best defenseman we have, and many posters started buying it. Anybody that watches the Sabres regularly that doesn't frequent this site knows that Sekera ranks well below Myers and Ehrhoff, and fits in somewhere with Leopold and Regher for 3-5. For me, he comes in at no. 5 in terms of importance to this team. Here's a very in depth analysis that claims Sekera was our 6th best defenseman.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...tes=100&disp=1
it was declared that he had the "best season" of any Sabres defensemen in 2011-2012. A piece of context you still can't seem to grasp

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Old
07-30-2012, 11:58 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it was declared that he had the "best season" of any Sabres defensemen in 2011-2012. A piece of context you still can't seem to grasp
I'm well aware what your argument was, but many other poster have ran with it and turned it into "Sekera is our consensus no. 1", which is far from the truth.

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07-30-2012, 12:04 PM
  #85
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I don't understand why you would want to move one of your top dmen for another fwd. Good dmen are hard to get in the NHL. Players like Grabner are a dime a dozen.

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07-30-2012, 12:04 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm well aware what your argument was, but many other poster have ran with it and turned it into "Sekera is our consensus no. 1", which is far from the truth.
Where have you seen that?? Myers and Ehrhoff are probably slightly better and more important to the team (Though Sekera was better than Myers last year, for sure - Ehrhoff had a better overall season, imo).

Anyway, If you want to argue this, go to the Sabres board. This thread didn't need to be dragged from the depths of hell so you can rehash your agenda.

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07-30-2012, 12:05 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm well aware what your argument was, but many other poster have ran with it and turned it into "Sekera is our consensus no. 1", which is far from the truth.
there's probably not a single post on the entire Sabres board that says that.

Make sure to account for the difference between "IS" and "WAS".

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:14 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
there's probably not a single post on the entire Sabres board that says that.

Make sure to account for the difference between "IS" and "WAS".
It's said quite frequently on this side. And even if your argument was the end all be all, which it's not as the link I provided shows, he still was never our no. 1 on any depth chart. There has never been, and never will be a consensus no. 1 defenseman that plays 4 minutes less per game than 3 of his teammates at the same position. Just doesn't work that way.

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:19 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
It's said quite frequently on this side. And even if your argument was the end all be all, which it's not as the link I provided shows, he still was never our no. 1 on any depth chart. There has never been, and never will be a consensus no. 1 defenseman that plays 4 minutes less per game than 3 of his teammates at the same position. Just doesn't work that way.
And that's the problem with platitudes like "consensus #1 defensemen"...

1. What was Sekera's role?
2. What is the value of that role?
3. How did Sekera perform in that role?

Those are the questions that matter... and when those same questions are answered for all the defensemen in a given season, you can determine who was the most valuable or who performed the best, in a given season.

Even the #'s you posted from a less reputable site... confirm that Sekera was the team's best defensemen last year when performance within the context of role is properly understood.

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:24 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Something strange happened on the Buffalo board this offseason, where it was declared by some Sekera fanboys that he was the best defenseman we have, and many posters started buying it. Anybody that watches the Sabres regularly that doesn't frequent this site knows that Sekera ranks well below Myers and Ehrhoff, and fits in somewhere with Leopold and Regher for 3-5. For me, he comes in at no. 5 in terms of importance to this team. Here's a very in depth analysis that claims Sekera was our 6th best defenseman.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...tes=100&disp=1
The numbers you linked look solely at goals. If you look at the shots rankings, Sekera is #1 in the ShotHARD+ which the blogger portends is the best defensive metric and #3 in the ShotHART+ category.

If we went solely by the HART+ numbers, you'd be led to believe that John Erskine is a better defenseman than Karl Alzner at 5 on 5 and Dennis Wideman is a significantly better PKer than Alzner. I'll leave it up to others to determine how much stock to put into those rankings.

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Old
07-30-2012, 01:35 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAPSHOT723 View Post
We don't really have the room for Vanek, and I doubt Wang would be willing to pay that contract.

What you're asking for sounds like Nielsen, Grabner, Ness, 1st.

Grabner >> Dubinsky
Nielsen = Anisimov
Ness << Erixon
1st = 1st

That would destroy our depth since all we need is a 2nd line center.
I'd be cool with just taking Grabner, Nielsen, a pick, and a cap dump (even out amount of cap going to Isles) for TV.

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Old
07-30-2012, 04:43 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Timbo Slice View Post
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that you didn't know enough about either team to realize that was a horrible proposal. Next time I'll dumb it down for you.
I must have missed the part of your post which might be called an argument, or, at the very least, content. I did get the puerility the first time around.

My viewings of the Sabres indicated suggested that they could use an efficient puck distributor as opposed to another over-handler. Also, I don't think McNabb - at all 25 games - is yet a top-4 defensman (although he is on his way). Other Sabres fans liked the idea of a Bailey/McNabb deal with a pick swap pre-draft. I sheepishly thought an idea like that could be reconsidered, especially if 2013 #2 comes back to us if the Visnovsky trade is voided. I was under the impression that maybe your two first round centers might not be quite ready for prime time.

Silly old dumb me.

Cheers,

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Old
07-30-2012, 04:45 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAPSHOT723 View Post
We don't really have the room for Vanek, and I doubt Wang would be willing to pay that contract.

What you're asking for sounds like Nielsen, Grabner, Ness, 1st.

Grabner >> Dubinsky
Nielsen = Anisimov
Ness << Erixon
1st = 1st

That would destroy our depth since all we need is a 2nd line center.
Nope.

And NYI 1st has more value than NYR 1st.

Also Vanek doesn't have a NTC, so Buffalo can shop him to all teams instead of a list.

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Old
07-30-2012, 04:46 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by kirby11 View Post
I'd be cool with just taking Grabner, Nielsen, a pick, and a cap dump (even out amount of cap going to Isles) for TV.
We don't have a salary dump you would accept that could even it out. Frankly, the idea that Vanek could be had for that package is a bit concerning.

There's also a thought running around that the Isles won't pay another player more than JT, but it's more likely that's a justification for being cheap.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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07-30-2012, 04:50 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
I must have missed the part of your post which might be called an argument, or, at the very least, content. I did get the puerility the first time around.

My viewings of the Sabres indicated suggested that they could use an efficient puck distributor as opposed to another over-handler. Also, I don't think McNabb - at all 25 games - is yet a top-4 defensman (although he is on his way). Other Sabres fans liked the idea of a Bailey/McNabb deal with a pick swap pre-draft. I sheepishly thought an idea like that could be reconsidered, especially if 2013 #2 comes back to us if the Visnovsky trade is voided. I was under the impression that maybe your two first round centers might not be quite ready for prime time.

Silly old dumb me.

Cheers,

Dan-o
McNabb might not be a top 4 defenseman yet, but that's because he's only 21. He is a blend of size, toughness, physicality, and offensive talent.

Josh Bailey might be good in the future, as he's still a pretty young player himself. However, in his 4 years in the league he hasn't cracked 20 goals, or scored over 35 points.

There's no reason Buffalo should trade a very good prospect for a player that would be useless on their roster in a year or so.

When did Sabres fans agree to that deal?

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Old
07-30-2012, 05:09 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by kirby11 View Post
I'd be cool with just taking Grabner, Nielsen, a pick, and a cap dump (even out amount of cap going to Isles) for TV.
No way in hell. Trading Vanek for this package would be really bad asset management.

Critizice Vanek all you want, but he's a proven first liner (in fact currently our only one besides Pominville). If you trade him, you'd need to replace his scoring, while Grabner might never be able to come close to his break out season again, for all we know.

Nielsen is a 3rd liner, albeit a good one at that, but you don't trade a proven first line scorer for this kind of package.

And btw. the Nash trade isn't a good example, since he practically forced his way out of C-bus and had a NTC on top of that which surely lowered his value.

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07-30-2012, 07:27 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nope.

And NYI 1st has more value than NYR 1st.

Also Vanek doesn't have a NTC, so Buffalo can shop him to all teams instead of a list.
Agreed. I'd have just used one ">".

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07-30-2012, 08:01 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
I must have missed the part of your post which might be called an argument, or, at the very least, content. I did get the puerility the first time around.

My viewings of the Sabres indicated suggested that they could use an efficient puck distributor as opposed to another over-handler. Also, I don't think McNabb - at all 25 games - is yet a top-4 defensman (although he is on his way). Other Sabres fans liked the idea of a Bailey/McNabb deal with a pick swap pre-draft. I sheepishly thought an idea like that could be reconsidered, especially if 2013 #2 comes back to us if the Visnovsky trade is voided. I was under the impression that maybe your two first round centers might not be quite ready for prime time.

Silly old dumb me.

Cheers,

Dan-o
i kinda doubt that...

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Old
07-30-2012, 08:12 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nope.

And NYI 1st has more value than NYR 1st.

Also Vanek doesn't have a NTC, so Buffalo can shop him to all teams instead of a list.
I didn't mean much by the double ">", but I don't like anything about Dubinsky's game. I like Grabner when he's on his game, which he wasn't most of this year.

Same with Dubinsky actually, he was bad this past year.

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Old
07-30-2012, 09:30 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
What measurement are you using to come to such a conclusion?
We know it's not viewing, so what statistic are you using to conclude that Sekera is somewhere between a garbage can and an average NHL Defensemen?

How are you comparing him to Hamonic, Streit, etc?

FYI

Sekera had an identical +/- QOC to Hamonic

There roles were nearly identical (shut down matchups, def zone starts)
Hamonic is a two-way defenseman, he's better offensively than Sekera.


Last edited by spiny norman: 07-30-2012 at 11:16 PM. Reason: qep
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