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research request value of Biron + Boyle for Olsen + pick

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Old
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
  #51
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
I would do that deal immediately from the Chicago side of things.

Very good value.
Thank you!
This makes it 5-5, atm.

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07-30-2012, 06:44 PM
  #52
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Very interesting at 5-5 Mon nite.
Good discussion.

Will check in Tues-Wed. for another headcount. Thanks.

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07-30-2012, 06:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I am under impression Biron >> Emery.
NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,
but >> is enough to get a few extra wins/points.
The Hawks are already a playoff team so a marginal upgrade at backup goaltender is pretty useless when Biron won't be contributing in the post season and there is a good chance that Olsen will.

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These comments are fair enough, but I'm not sure I agree with the bold. I think he can, but it could depend in part upon supporting linemates, are they helping out or does he have to cover up for them?
Boyle would be expected to go against the Sedin's, Thornton, Datsyuk, etc every night and still generate offense and the Hawks 3rd line is the dumping ground for players in Q's doghouse. So yes Boyle would need to routinely cover for his linemates offensively and defensively against the best competition on the other team.

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07-30-2012, 07:16 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
The Hawks are already a playoff team so a marginal upgrade at backup goaltender is pretty useless when Biron won't be contributing in the post season and there is a good chance that Olsen will.
Olsen will be lucky to even make the team in the first place... you are delusional with the prospect love.

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07-30-2012, 07:31 PM
  #55
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Olsen will be lucky to even make the team in the first place... you are delusional with the prospect love.
So you don't think any of the d-men will get injured this season? Olsen is the most NHL ready prospect d-man the Hawks have who played decently in his limited time last year. But you want to trade him for a back up goaltender who might get the Hawks 1 more win then Emery and an over paid 4th liner (on the Hawks). Wonderful asset management there.

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07-30-2012, 08:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
So you don't think any of the d-men will get injured this season? Olsen is the most NHL ready prospect d-man the Hawks have who played decently in his limited time last year. But you want to trade him for a back up goaltender who might get the Hawks 1 more win then Emery and an over paid 4th liner (on the Hawks). Wonderful asset management there.
Given some of the trash the Hawks have regularly been putting on Bolland's wings for the past several years, you honestly don't think Brian Boyle would be on the third line? At 1.7 million, he's a bargain. You obviously barely have seen the guy play, if at all - and in that case it's not a very good idea to start throwing out statements as if you know what you're talking about, hm?

Hawks have seven NHL defensemen in Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Oduya, Montador, and Brookbank. I think they're going to manage just fine getting rid of #8 in exchange for the winger Bolland has been waiting for for years and a backup goalie who will spell Crawford a hell of a lot better than Emery did when CC gets into one of his bad stretches.

Just reeks of yet another person who thinks it's necessary to keep 50 prospects to fill 2 holes on the roster Olsen is far less valuable and far less important to keep than you think he is.

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07-30-2012, 08:32 PM
  #57
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Given some of the trash the Hawks have regularly been putting on Bolland's wings for the past several years, you honestly don't think Brian Boyle would be on the third line?
Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Shaw, and Stalberg. That is 5 wingers already on the Hawks who are better than Boyle. Saad (barring injury) is going to make the team. Out of those 6 which one is going to be giving up their roster spot for Boyle?

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At 1.7 million, he's a bargain. You obviously barely have seen the guy play, if at all - and in that case it's not a very good idea to start throwing out statements as if you know what you're talking about, hm?
He is not a bargain for the Hawks. On the Hawks he would be an overpaid 4th liner. Just like Soupy was an overpaid 2nd pairing d-man when he was with the team. I'm not saying that Boyle is a bad player, I'm saying he wouldn't be worth the money to the Hawks and definitely not worth Olsen.

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Hawks have seven NHL defensemen in Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Leddy, Oduya, Montador, and Brookbank. I think they're going to manage just fine getting rid of #8 in exchange for the winger Bolland has been waiting for for years and a backup goalie who will spell Crawford a hell of a lot better than Emery did when CC gets into one of his bad stretches.
Montador suffered a major concussion tried to come back and got knocked out again. There is no guarantee that he will be healthy to start the season or that he will be able to perform at a reasonable level when he does return.

Biron's numbers over his career are barely better than Emery's. So how can you say that he is a "hell of a lot better"? Not to mention the fact that Biron is older, more expensive, and signed for an additional year.

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Just reeks of yet another person who thinks it's necessary to keep 50 prospects to fill 2 holes on the roster Olsen is far less valuable and far less important to keep than you think he is.
Your comments just reek of yet another person who wants a move to be made just for the sake of making a move. Boyle doesn't represent an upgrade over any of the Hawks projected top 9 wingers and Biron doesn't represent anything more than a marginal upgrade at the backup goaltender position. The Hawks are going to make the playoffs whether Emery or Biron is the backup. Once they get into the post season neither one of those two would ever see playing time in the post season.

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07-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Shaw, and Stalberg. That is 5 wingers already on the Hawks who are better than Boyle. Saad (barring injury) is going to make the team. Out of those 6 which one is going to be giving up their roster spot for Boyle?
Shaw has played half an NHL season in his career. Boyle is much more accomplished and much better defensively - a pretty convenient trait to have for a winger on a shutdown line, I would say. So, Shaw. Also, although I like Stalberg, Quenneville has him on the 4th line as often as he has him on the top two lines, so let's not act as if Stalberg is cemented ahead of Boyle in this hypothetical lineup either.

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He is not a bargain for the Hawks. On the Hawks he would be an overpaid 4th liner. Just like Soupy was an overpaid 2nd pairing d-man when he was with the team. I'm not saying that Boyle is a bad player, I'm saying he wouldn't be worth the money to the Hawks and definitely not worth Olsen.
As I just established for the second time, he fits like a glove on the third line. And at 1.7M, he is far from overpaid.

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Montador suffered a major concussion tried to come back and got knocked out again. There is no guarantee that he will be healthy to start the season or that he will be able to perform at a reasonable level when he does return.
I thought I heard Montador would be ready for training camp. But even so, if giving up your seventh defenseman is honestly breaking the bank (so to speak), then you're just being far too hesitant. Olsen's a nice prospect, I get that. But the Hawks have several other guys who they can call up if injuries arise. Olsen is not a very important player on this roster in any shape or form.

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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
Biron's numbers over his career are barely better than Emery's. So how can you say that he is a "hell of a lot better"? Not to mention the fact that Biron is older, more expensive, and signed for an additional year.
Biron has had success as a starter in the NHL (with a not particularly good defensive team either, I should add). Yeah, so has Emery, but Biron doesn't have career-changing injury + surgery in between who he is now and who he was then like Emery does. Emery is barely backup-quality. Biron has shown the ability to start if needed. What if Crawford goes down with an injury? Slumps even harder this year than he did last year? I'd rather have Biron than Emery to pick up the slack in that case. Yeah, in a perfect world I'd take Lundqvist or something, but this isn't a perfect world and it's silly not to take an obvious upgrade when you see on - as is the case here.

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Your comments just reek of yet another person who wants a move to be made just for the sake of making a move. Boyle doesn't represent an upgrade over any of the Hawks projected top 9 wingers and Biron doesn't represent anything more than a marginal upgrade at the backup goaltender position. The Hawks are going to make the playoffs whether Emery or Biron is the backup. Once they get into the post season neither one of those two would ever see playing time in the post season.
Boyle is a huge upgrade for the third line, are you kidding me? He's very good in his own end, is an extremely good PKer (please don't try and tell me this team couldn't use some of those), racks up a lot of hits and is a very physical player (once again, please don't tell me this isn't something the Hawks need). Biron is a nice extra piece that presents a good upgrade from Emery. But he's secondary - the main pieces here are Olsen and Boyle. Olsen won't even be on the opening day roster. Boyle would be, and would be playing a fairly significant role alongside Bolland.
I don't want a move made for the sake of a move. Besides, this is all hypothetical - these proposed trades obviously never actually happen. But if this situation somehow did come about, Bowman would be incredibly stupid not to take this deal and run. This is an immediate upgrade, addresses several areas in which the Hawks are lacking (defensive ability of forwards, a genuinely good linemate for Bolland, someone to take faceoffs for Bolland, a very good PKer, a very physical player)... and hell, throw a decent piece in Martin Biron on top of that. And you wouldn't take it because you refuse to give up Dylan Olsen, a player who optimistically will turn into a good bottom-pairing stay-at-home guy several years down the road? Come on.

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07-30-2012, 09:30 PM
  #59
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Shaw has played half an NHL season in his career. Boyle is much more accomplished and much better defensively - a pretty convenient trait to have for a winger on a shutdown line, I would say. So, Shaw. Also, although I like Stalberg, Quenneville has him on the 4th line as often as he has him on the top two lines, so let's not act as if Stalberg is cemented ahead of Boyle in this hypothetical lineup either.
Shaw played half a season and outproduced Boyle who played the entire season. Shaw had 12G/11A/21P in 37GP, Boyle had 11/15/26 in 82GP. Shaw also hustled every second he was on the ice, Boyle's effort level is inconsistent. Not to mention the fact that Shaw is already on the team, costs less, and was just a rookie last year. But lets put him on the fourth line and trade Olsen for a less productive player. Again that is some amazing asset management.

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As I just established for the second time, he fits like a glove on the third line. And at 1.7M, he is far from overpaid.
Not unless you demote one of the winger already in the top 9. All of whom are better than Boyle. So yet again he is an overpaid 4th liner.

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I thought I heard Montador would be ready for training camp.
I haven't seen any new about him in a while, but last I heard he was still having headaches and was "hoping" to be ready when camp started. So maybe things have changed since then and I just haven't seen the update.

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But even so, if giving up your seventh defenseman is honestly breaking the bank (so to speak), then you're just being far too hesitant. Olsen's a nice prospect, I get that. But the Hawks have several other guys who they can call up if injuries arise. Olsen is not a very important player on this roster in any shape or form.
It's not about giving up Olsen. It's about giving up Olsen for players who only make the team marginally better. Boyle and Biron *might* win the Hawks 1 or 2 more games during the regular season. Big whoop. The Hawks are a playoff team without them. Biron isn't going to play in the postseason. Boyle is a 4th liner for the Hawks. Olsen will spend time with the team this year and has a chance to get better.

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Biron has had success as a starter in the NHL (with a not particularly good defensive team either, I should add). Yeah, so has Emery, but Biron doesn't have career-changing injury + surgery in between who he is now and who he was then like Emery does. Emery is barely backup-quality. Biron has shown the ability to start if needed. What if Crawford goes down with an injury? Slumps even harder this year than he did last year? I'd rather have Biron than Emery to pick up the slack in that case. Yeah, in a perfect world I'd take Lundqvist or something, but this isn't a perfect world and it's silly not to take an obvious upgrade when you see on - as is the case here.
And last year Biron's numbers weren't that much better despite the fact that he played behind a much better team defensively. Biron might be better than Emery, but the difference is marginal.


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Boyle is a huge upgrade for the third line, are you kidding me? He's very good in his own end, is an extremely good PKer (please don't try and tell me this team couldn't use some of those), racks up a lot of hits and is a very physical player (once again, please don't tell me this isn't something the Hawks need).
The problem with the Hawks pk is Mike Kitchen. Until he gets fired it won't matter who is out there as long as it is his system in place. Kitchen has a very long history of being a horrible coach on the PK. The person that you want Boyle to replace is Shaw. Shaw racked up plenty of hits (though he is a lot smaller), played with an extremely high motor (while Boyle has motivation issues), and still has room to grow on both sides of the ice. There would be no reason what so every to replace Shaw with a more expensive, but less productive player.

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Biron is a nice extra piece that presents a good upgrade from Emery. But he's secondary
Biron may represent an upgrade, but its a very small one.

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the main pieces here are Olsen and Boyle. Olsen won't even be on the opening day roster. Boyle would be, and would be playing a fairly significant role alongside Bolland.
Yet again your assuming Boyle would be on the third line when there is no reason why he should be there instead of Shaw unless...


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I don't want a move made for the sake of a move.
You want to do that.

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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Besides, this is all hypothetical - these proposed trades obviously never actually happen. But if this situation somehow did come about, Bowman would be incredibly stupid not to take this deal and run. This is an immediate upgrade, addresses several areas in which the Hawks are lacking (defensive ability of forwards, a genuinely good linemate for Bolland, someone to take faceoffs for Bolland, a very good PKer, a very physical player)... and hell, throw a decent piece in Martin Biron on top of that.
Except for the fact that there isn't a roster spot for Boyle unless someone better is put on the fourth line. Its just horrible asset management.

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And you wouldn't take it because you refuse to give up Dylan Olsen, a guy who optimistically will turn into a good bottom-pairing stay-at-home guy several years down the road? Come on.
Olsen spent time in the NHL last year and did fine. He get some more time there this year and probably do a little better. To say he will "ptimistically will turn into a good bottom-pairing stay-at-home guy several years down the road" when he has already shown he can play in the NHL if needed.

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07-30-2012, 09:38 PM
  #60
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Yup, it's a no brainier, plain and simple. We would be so lucky to even have the opportunity. Given we gave them Scott, there could be an opening for some dialog if Boyle becomes available. Would Bowman do it? I doubt it but he should. I don't see him dumping Emery after the extension, doubt the Rangers would take him and like bernmeister said, they have a prospect ready.

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07-30-2012, 09:43 PM
  #61
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Shaw can start on the 4th line and work his way up. He's barely been a pro. Boyle is better now and Shaw's ceiling but almost a foot taller, prime aged and experienced, another this this team needs more of.

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07-30-2012, 09:50 PM
  #62
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Still don't know what the problem is with him as our 3C and moving Bolland up.

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07-30-2012, 09:54 PM
  #63
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Shaw can start on the 4th line and work his way up. He's barely been a pro. Boyle is better now and Shaw's ceiling but almost a foot taller, prime aged and experienced, another this this team needs more of.
How is Boyle better than Shaw right now? Shaw showed more in his limited time then Boyle has in his entire career, but lets relegate Shaw to the fourth line and waste assets on Boyle. And how is this perceived difference between the 2 of them big enough to justify trading a quality asset?

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07-30-2012, 09:58 PM
  #64
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I'd do it.

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07-30-2012, 10:00 PM
  #65
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You can't have enough good players and we need some D, faceoffs, net presence, etc. Could very well end up with Boyle-Bolland-Shaw by playoff time. That's a what I like! Add Biron as well, team is definitely better and not far from contending status.

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07-30-2012, 10:06 PM
  #66
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Still don't know what the problem is with him as our 3C and moving Bolland up.
Because who is going to go against the other teams top lines if Bolland is going to chase offense with the top 6? Boyle has never been a shutdown center and taken on the other teams top lines consistently. His numbers defensively are not very good. Boyle is inconsistent physically and sub par offensively. Need I go on?

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07-30-2012, 10:14 PM
  #67
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He brings it all the time. 236 hits and didn't miss a game. We don't have ANY forward that physical.

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07-30-2012, 10:17 PM
  #68
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He brings it all the time. 236 hits and didn't miss a game. We don't have ANY forward that physical.
No he doesn't. Go ask any Rangers fans about how often Boyle shows up physically. He is their version of Bickell. A big guy who plays small a lot of the time.

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07-30-2012, 10:17 PM
  #69
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Because who is going to go against the other teams top lines if Bolland is going to chase offense with the top 6? Boyle has never been a shutdown center and taken on the other teams top lines consistently. His numbers defensively are not very good. Boyle is inconsistent physically and sub par offensively. Need I go on?
Really? Rangers fans seem to think that he is quite good defensively....

"Boyle does a lot for the Rangers. He's very good defensively for a forward. We just came 2 wins away from the SCF with him as 3c"

"There's nothing wrong with Boyle at 3C. He's big, very good defensively, and capable of potting 15."

"Boyle's role is a shut down type checking center, Torts will not use him in a goalscoring role as he typically leans on 3 lines instead of 4. Boyle eats a bunch of really tough minutes and is a leader on the PK, plus like was said he is good for about 15 goals. There is no need to acquire a 3rd line center."

And there's more.

So now you've been beaten down with statistics and reports from actual Rangers fans.

If you don't want to trade Olsen for him, fine, but to suggest he's not a good fit on the third line center on a team hurting for center depth is just incorrect.

Check please.

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07-30-2012, 10:20 PM
  #70
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bolland and shaw are great on the 3rd line together. perfect roles for both of them. it'd be awesome to have boyle as the 4C though

and i like biron, but there's really no point since crawford is our starter and emery was recently resigned to be the backup. and i'd rather the hawks keep olsen. they're not as stacked on D with prospects as forwards


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07-30-2012, 10:25 PM
  #71
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So now you've been beaten down with statistics and reports from actual Rangers fans.
Actual statistics huh.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

Boyle had the second worst GA/60 of the Ranger's centers. Boyle had the 4 worst Corsi QoC among Ranger's centers. Boyle has never gone against the other teams top lines consistently. To put it in perspective, Boyle's numbers aren't a whole lot different than Marcus Krugers.

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07-30-2012, 10:37 PM
  #72
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Actual statistics huh.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

Boyle had the second worst GA/60 of the Ranger's centers. Boyle had the 4 worst Corsi QoC among Ranger's centers. Boyle has never gone against the other teams top lines consistently. To put it in perspective, Boyle's numbers aren't a whole lot different than Marcus Krugers.
What a dumb statistical set to pull from. Of course a guy playing against tough competition and starting over 70% of the time in the defensive zone is going to give up more goals than a teammate who starts in the offensive zone more. You want to talk about GA/60, well Dave Bolland, the guy you say can't be moved off the 3rd line has a worse GA/60, the worst on the team. I'm not saying Bolland is worse than Boyle, not at all, I'm just pointing out how DUMB stats like that are.

The stats I'm talking about actually mean something: hits, faceoff percent, PK TOI, etc. Those mean something. CORSI and all these "advanced" stats are just a lot of garbage in the sport of hockey.

Boyle's numbers aren't all that different than Kruger's?

Kruger- 26 points, 26 hits, 36 blocks, 45.9% FO%, 15% of teams FOs, 44% offensive zone starts
Boyle- 26 points, 236 hits, 83 blocks, 51.8% FO%, 25% of teams FOs, 29% offensive zone starts

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07-30-2012, 10:43 PM
  #73
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Olsen is definitely not a deal breaker for me in this deal. Even if you think he is, they just lost their 1st in the Nash trade. Try to sell them on that.

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07-30-2012, 11:02 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
What a dumb statistical set to pull from. Of course a guy playing against tough competition and starting over 70% of the time in the defensive zone is going to give up more goals than a teammate who starts in the offensive zone more. You want to talk about GA/60, well Dave Bolland, the guy you say can't be moved off the 3rd line has a worse GA/60, the worst on the team. I'm not saying Bolland is worse than Boyle, not at all, I'm just pointing out how DUMB stats like that are.
He didn't play against tough competition. That is the point I am making. Bolland played against the hardest competition on the Hawks by far. Boyle played against the fourth hardest competition on the Rangers. That means that Boyle wasn't out there against the top lines. He was playing against 3rd and 4th liners more often than the other guys.

And stats like this aren't dumb they just need to be read correctly. Bolland played against the hardest competition on the team and the avg SV% behind him was .898. Boyle played against 3rd and 4th liners and had an avg SV% behind him of .918. So yes Bolland GA is worse, because he played against better players and had worse goal tending.

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The stats I'm talking about actually mean something: hits, faceoff percent, PK TOI, etc. Those mean something. CORSI and all these "advanced" stats are just a lot of garbage in the sport of hockey.
PK TOI doesn't mean a damn thing. John Scott had more time on the PK then Monty did for the Hawks last year. Does that mean Scott is a better pker?

This was the first year Boyle went above 50% at the dot in the regular season. Every other year he has been below that (including the playoffs this year).

Hits don't mean a thing either. Brouwer hit people constantly, but that didn't make him a good 3rd liner.

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Boyle's numbers aren't all that different than Kruger's?

Kruger- 26 points, 26 hits, 36 blocks, 45.9% FO%, 15% of teams FOs, 44% offensive zone starts
Boyle- 26 points, 236 hits, 83 blocks, 51.8% FO%, 25% of teams FOs, 29% offensive zone starts
A rookie who makes half as much scored as many points as the guy you want to trade for, but Boyle wouldn't be overpaid on the Hawks? And I meant that Kruger's Corsi stats were very similar to Boyle yet people ***** about him being a bad player constantly.

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Olsen is definitely not a deal breaker for me in this deal. Even if you think he is, they just lost their 1st in the Nash trade. Try to sell them on that.
A 1st round pick for a 4th liner. Wonders never cease.

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07-30-2012, 11:10 PM
  #75
Chris Hansen
VERSTEEG REDEMPTION
 
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,222
vCash: 500
Alright bud, if you're honestly that delusional it's just pointless trying to argue with you. I tell you, some of you guys are such homers... you can't even admit a player on another team is better than someone on the Hawks, even when it's pretty obvious. Ah well, at least not all of us are that way.

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