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Free Agency 2012 Part #3

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Old
07-29-2012, 05:01 PM
  #51
Jason Lewis
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Doan brings a lot to the team. That includes leadership, PP, and grit. Williams is worthless on the third line since he is terrible 15 feet away fromt he net and relies 100% on teammates.
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That's been the general opinion the last two years. Williams is a bad player if he's not within 15 feet of the net. He can't carry the puck, he's always in the wrong spot, he's poor defensively, is worthless in the corners, he's a turnover machine. His strengths involve cleaning up the trash..


Oh come on now man. You describe him as if he is a good-for-nothing AHLer who should be making league min.

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07-29-2012, 05:16 PM
  #52
HYORI 1963
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Everybody played better under Sutter, so, I'm not too worried about their struggles under TM.

With or without Doan, I love our boys!

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07-29-2012, 06:27 PM
  #53
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Everyone doesn't say that and it's 100% incorrect. Williams frustrates me a lot, but the only thing you listed there that has any semblance of truth is that he turns the puck over a decent amount. He more than makes up for it in other areas though.

To he say he relies on other players is absurd. There's a reason Williams has been stapled to Kopitar's wing for a few seasons now, and it's not because Williams relies on Kopitar...
Ok, well debate otherwise. And I will counter that if you'd read a GDT you'll see everyone mentioning the same thing. You won't find a breakdown of Williams just randomly cluttering up the board.

So what does he do? Everything I say is spot on. Check his turnover to takeaway ratio. How many times a game does he single handedly create an offsides? You wouldn't dare defend his defense. Also you know there is nothing but trouble when he carries the puck in and that's why you didn't defend that either. He does not get his nose dirty in the corners and just waits for the puck to get tapped out (he doesn't even lean).

What he does better than most players in the NHL is have the ability to get unnoticed in the slot, has amazing hand eye coordination which allows him to direct home cross crease shots, rebounds and deflections. He has a really good close range shot and has a knack for getting the puck on net.

I am not purposely disrespecting Williams. Every team needs guys like him and he's worth every penny. I was merely responding to the difference between Doan and Williams playing the third line. Williams simply is not suited for that role for the reasons I mentioned. Doan is suited and will play all lines if he joins the Kings. There is a reason Jim Fox called him the Kings version of the Lakers Cedric Ceballos of the 90's. He was effectionately calling him a garbage man. He is the prototypical passenger that makes the playmakers look good by cleaning up.

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07-29-2012, 06:33 PM
  #54
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Oh come on now man. You describe him as if he is a good-for-nothing AHLer who should be making league min.
No, because within the dots he is a very special player and he suits Kopitars style perfectly.

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07-29-2012, 07:55 PM
  #55
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That's been the general opinion the last two years. Williams is a bad player if he's not within 15 feet of the net. He can't carry the puck, he's always in the wrong spot, he's poor defensively, is worthless in the corners, he's a turnover machine. His strengths involve cleaning up the trash.

Everyone agrees and has said so a hundred times. Also, I know it's popular for you to say "wow, just wow" but it really bothers me how you mess it up all the time. Wow is a one word statement. There should be a period in there.
I wasn't aware it was popular for me to say it. Or maybe its happen to be directed at you a few times for your somewhat absurd POV's. Such as this and constant pimping of JJ vs DD. Of which we have had a few verbal jabs

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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Everyone doesn't say that and it's 100% incorrect. Williams frustrates me a lot, but the only thing you listed there that has any semblance of truth is that he turns the puck over a decent amount. He more than makes up for it in other areas though.

To he say he relies on other players is absurd. There's a reason Williams has been stapled to Kopitar's wing for a few seasons now, and it's not because Williams relies on Kopitar...
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post


Oh come on now man. You describe him as if he is a good-for-nothing AHLer who should be making league min.
As Chazz and Jay have so kindly aided my argument, I'll shorten it somewhat. JDub is without a doubt the most underrated player on the Kings. He has been the second best offensive player on the Kings for the past 3 years. To say he rides Kopi is wrong on so many different levels, if anything his play style messes with Kopi better than anyone on the team. Kopi is unique in that he can play a wide open game or a game along the boards as well as a quick North/South game as well as good East/West passing game, the only player on the Kings that can also play this way and keep up with Kopi is JDub.

When the Smyth/Kopi/JDub line was clicking it was because of JDub. He was the main catalyst of the forecheck of that line, he was the one that was F1 entering the zone. In many cases he still is (with Brown). Many don't notice his great work on the forecheck because he doesn't play the body alot, but the same group don't seem to grasp that there are many different ways to forecheck. The main goal of F1 isn't necessarily to separate the man from the puck, its to disrupt the breakout (many esteemed forecheckers use the body to accomplish this) and allow the rest of the attack to provide support. A mere presence or stick check can accomplish this just as well (see Datsyuk). This is where JDub is quite skilled.

Finally, while I'm not going to argue his defensive play (its proably below average, but good enough for TM to put on the ice a healthy amount....). Using turnover to takeaway ratio on a guy that is suppose to create offense first, is poor way to evaluate a player. This is a player that is suppose to create, you expect turnovers, you don't want to discourage creative play (which is inherently more prone to turnovers) otherwise you end up with static pooring board play that was staple of the TM system.

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07-29-2012, 08:11 PM
  #56
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Resorting to evaluate a player based on his turnover to takeaway ratio... I suppose next we'll be reading about his corsi numbers.

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07-29-2012, 09:02 PM
  #57
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I wasn't aware it was popular for me to say it. Or maybe its happen to be directed at you a few times for your somewhat absurd POV's. Such as this and constant pimping of JJ vs DD. Of which we have had a few verbal jabs





As Chazz and Jay have so kindly aided my argument, I'll shorten it somewhat. JDub is without a doubt the most underrated player on the Kings. He has been the second best offensive player on the Kings for the past 3 years. To say he rides Kopi is wrong on so many different levels, if anything his play style messes with Kopi better than anyone on the team. Kopi is unique in that he can play a wide open game or a game along the boards as well as a quick North/South game as well as good East/West passing game, the only player on the Kings that can also play this way and keep up with Kopi is JDub.

When the Smyth/Kopi/JDub line was clicking it was because of JDub. He was the main catalyst of the forecheck of that line, he was the one that was F1 entering the zone. In many cases he still is (with Brown). Many don't notice his great work on the forecheck because he doesn't play the body alot, but the same group don't seem to grasp that there are many different ways to forecheck. The main goal of F1 isn't necessarily to separate the man from the puck, its to disrupt the breakout (many esteemed forecheckers use the body to accomplish this) and allow the rest of the attack to provide support. A mere presence or stick check can accomplish this just as well (see Datsyuk). This is where JDub is quite skilled.

Finally, while I'm not going to argue his defensive play (its proably below average, but good enough for TM to put on the ice a healthy amount....). Using turnover to takeaway ratio on a guy that is suppose to create offense first, is poor way to evaluate a player. This is a player that is suppose to create, you expect turnovers, you don't want to discourage creative play (which is inherently more prone to turnovers) otherwise you end up with static pooring board play that was staple of the TM system.
This is a well thought out argument and there are things that i will concede to. One being that I am not expereinced or shrewd enough to determine what certain forwards responsibilities are in many defensive circumstances, and I rarely key in on Williams. He does clog the lanes with his stick, I will give him that.

I will say that i don't believe Williams has an offensive style that you refer to. I do know that his strengths are that of a complementary scorer (getting open in the slot and directing the puck on net) and his weaknesses involve passes longer than 20 feet and carrying the puck.

I don't expect takeaways from him. I pointed out the turnover to takeaway ration because for the majority of the year he was the worst in the NHL by a wide margain. That made the stat relevent in my eyes. His constant offsides was also worse than a turnover because they were rushes.

I'll also disagree that I was always pimping JJ versus DD. I said many times that I liked both of them but I had to defend JJ because nobody else would. I also took heat for years defending Brown and Quick. My only issue with DD has been his attitude and his chaacter on the ice.

i appreciate the dialogue. I will always respect an opinion and sometimes allow my stance to be changed if someone can give an educated reason why I'm wrong as opposed to to quick one line comments that only attack the poster instead of the debate.

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07-30-2012, 03:15 AM
  #58
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come on man, Williams turned Smyth-Stoll-Williams into a legitimate line that scored at over ppg pace until they got broken up during the 10-11 season. The guy make every line better even if he is prone to just stupid turnovers

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07-30-2012, 07:17 AM
  #59
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come on man, Williams turned Smyth-Stoll-Williams into a legitimate line that scored at over ppg pace until they got broken up during the 10-11 season. The guy make every line better even if he is prone to just stupid turnovers
This^ The only time either of those other two really produced at their best was when they were with Williams. Even when the injuries hit, Smyth-Williams, and Kopitar-Williams were still two solid pairs that could produce.

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07-31-2012, 12:06 AM
  #60
etherialone
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Doan..................

Roster troubles.

$5.8 for 3 years. Seems right to me.

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07-31-2012, 02:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Doan..................

Roster troubles.

$5.8 for 3 years. Seems right to me.
I dunno TG, I don't like the 3 years. Two years is the right thing to do, but some team is going to give him 3 or 4.

Side note: Anyone else been reading the Detroit board?

I love how many of their fans think their team has the right to be a perpetual contender without ever having to go through a rebuild. They missed on Suter and Parise, and there is no way they are getting their hands on Weber, and that has a bunch of them mad at Holland.

What's he supposed to do wave a magic wand?

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07-31-2012, 03:04 PM
  #62
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I dunno TG, I don't like the 3 years. Two years is the right thing to do, but some team is going to give him 3 or 4.

Side note: Anyone else been reading the Detroit board?

I love how many of their fans think their team has the right to be a perpetual contender without ever having to go through a rebuild. They missed on Suter and Parise, and there is no way they are getting their hands on Weber, and that has a bunch of them mad at Holland.

What's he supposed to do wave a magic wand?
Trouble is a lot of rational Detroit fans and fans of other teams saw this coming a few years back. Holland just was unable to make the moves he needed to, and by the time he fixes that they may be looking at losing even more of the team. I have a friend who refuses to talk hockey at all anymore because she's so depressed about Lidstrom, it's like she just figured he'd play forever and this wasn't going to happen. But yeah they have some great pieces on that roster if they went full rebuild, as well as some really nice key pieces to build around.

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07-31-2012, 03:48 PM
  #63
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Trouble is a lot of rational Detroit fans and fans of other teams saw this coming a few years back. Holland just was unable to make the moves he needed to, and by the time he fixes that they may be looking at losing even more of the team. I have a friend who refuses to talk hockey at all anymore because she's so depressed about Lidstrom, it's like she just figured he'd play forever and this wasn't going to happen. But yeah they have some great pieces on that roster if they went full rebuild, as well as some really nice key pieces to build around.
Detroit fans need to realize how fortunate they were to have a GM and scouting department with enough skill to find guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Guys that could step in and replace Yzerman and Federov without them even noticing the difference.

Makes me hope they have to endure a few years of the "black hole", before realizing they need to rebuild.

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07-31-2012, 03:59 PM
  #64
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Every team is bound to go through their phases of suck, no matter how incredible the track record. The Red Wings sucked for a very long time before they rebuilt with players like Yzerman and Lidstrom. They've been able to hit the lottery since with players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and the almost inhuman longevity of Lidstrom himself. Eventually, everything comes to an end.

So much of competition, whether it be professional sports or card games or online gaming, comes down to luck and variance. There is no set model for infinite success because luck doesn't work that way. You can maximize your percentage for "good luck" or decrease your percentage for "bad luck" but you can't guarantee the former and certainly can't escape the latter. Eventually, the law of averages reduces everything to an even playing field. Take the current Kings, for example. As good as the team looks right now and as bright as the future may appear, eventually - whether that be five years from now or 20 - we'll have to watch another losing season. That's simply the way it goes.

Detroit will miss the playoffs one day, and eventually pick 1st overall again. That's just the way things go. That's competition. As a fan or participant, you simply enjoy the highs and attempt to squeeze the maximum amount of success out of them, and you do your best to get through the lows as quickly and painlessly as possible.

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07-31-2012, 04:55 PM
  #65
etherialone
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I dunno TG, I don't like the 3 years. Two years is the right thing to do, but some team is going to give him 3 or 4.

Side note: Anyone else been reading the Detroit board?

I love how many of their fans think their team has the right to be a perpetual contender without ever having to go through a rebuild. They missed on Suter and Parise, and there is no way they are getting their hands on Weber, and that has a bunch of them mad at Holland.

What's he supposed to do wave a magic wand?
I agree on the two years thing but think he will get the three. I don't see paying anything over 6m and believe that if he gets a 3 yr deal that it will be closer to $5.something that anything else.

Detroit board is always entertaining.

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