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Your thoughts on Darcy Regier as our GM

View Poll Results: What do you think of Regier as a GM?
Great 7 10.61%
Good 44 66.67%
Average 13 19.70%
Below average 2 3.03%
Poor 0 0%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-31-2012, 10:42 AM
  #51
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Err...

Scott Gomez, a cup winner, one of the top point getting centers, an all star center vs Leino's resume.

Why wouldnt Gomez strike it big in free agency? How hard is this? People like Gomez get paid big bucks all the time in free agency. There was nothing shocking about it.

Leino types do not get 6 year contracts.
Let me put it this way: I am in no way happy with Leinos performence OR his contract. It is simply not the worst in history or even of active contracts.

You are trying to say that a player who went over a calander year without scoring a single goal, on a contract that is used league wide as the primary example of a bad contract is a better contract then one that is a single year in, with a guy who has a history of having a terrible first year with all three NHL teams he has been on (Buffalo, Philly, Detroit) before getting his act together and improoving.....not sure where you are going with this but I suspect you are going nowhere fast.

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07-31-2012, 10:59 AM
  #52
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Let me put it this way: I am in no way happy with Leinos performence OR his contract. It is simply not the worst in history or even of active contracts.

You are trying to say that a player who went over a calander year without scoring a single goal, on a contract that is used league wide as the primary example of a bad contract is a better contract then one that is a single year in, with a guy who has a history of having a terrible first year with all three NHL teams he has been on (Buffalo, Philly, Detroit) before getting his act together and improoving.....not sure where you are going with this but I suspect you are going nowhere fast.
Gomez contract was one of the worst contracts of all time... no doubt. Gomez and Dipietro take the cake...

BUT...

Which contract was DUMBER at the time of signing?

Gomez, at 27 yrs old, coming off of 6 years averaging 63 pts a season? A guy who post lockout averaged 0.94 pts per game....or Leino, coming off his first and only successful NHL season with 53 pts at 27 yrs old?

We need to acknowledge that the Leino contract was Dumb... plain and simple.

Gomez contract was a complete bust... but at the time, atleast there was a track record, a history of performance, it might have been overpayment... but the guy was a 1st line playmaking center at the time.

Leino was a 3rd liner having his first moderately successful NHL season at 27 yrs old

By any comparison, at the time of signing, the Leino contract was far dumber then the Gomez contract

it's how you look at things

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07-31-2012, 11:05 AM
  #53
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He added PLENTY to the Muckler team... his moves definitely assisted to the conference and cup finals:
- He added a 40 goal scorer in Geoff Sanderson
- He added a shut down defensemen in Rhett Warrener
- He added veteran depth in Stu Barnes and Joe Juneau

Come on... don't try to re-write history here.
Where is the key piece to upgrade the overall skill? Sanderson was already struggling without Andrew Cassels setting him up and that was big on why the Canucks were willing to part with him. Was Warrener the #1 D-man they needed in that era? No, he was a good second pairing defensive defenseman. The team was Hasek in net and Peca shutting people down -- the move or moves to address scoring never materialized.

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Criticize the Peca situation... rightfully so (although, was that Darcy or Ownership?)
Regier had a hand in that just as much as Tim Rigas did. Then he waited to "maximize value" instead of bolstering a team that was about on par with the '99 unit minus Peca and that lost Dom. The double impact there of team captain and Hart-winner both going and getting two prospects, a disgruntled bum, and a draft pick? Massive loss.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
He should've been fired, along with Ruff at the end of 04.
I wouldn't have minded that, but was anyone willing to work for BTG/LQ given their financials?

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You can;'t blame the co-caps debacle on him, you know that.
He was complicite in the Briere negotiations. Too much party line, not enough retaining top talent -- again.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
His lack of improving the team after 06, is the BIGGEST blemish on his resume... although, they did go out and win the President's trophy
I still think the Peca/Hasek snowball is the worst, but the lameness of '06 where they literally did nothing was an astonishing moment and a close second.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Easily his 2nd biggest flaw (his belief in ruff being#1)
11 players on IR and guys available who could be at least useful for a few weeks and he sits around like it's 2003 and he can't make a move. It's those old habits forged under the Rigas and BTG eras that I was concerned about when Pegula gave him the reins again and they're still there. Waivers costs nothing but money and plugs bodies into the lineup. For a team trying to build cache around the league, that was more of the same -- more pennywise/pound foolishness that contributed to them being on the outside when the playoffs hit. Three points this past season... that's a couple of bounces, a goal or assist somewhere in literally less than a handful of games. Take an action -- including relieving a coach who's message looks like it had gotten completely stale -- and perhaps things are a little bit better this offseason.

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Little tid bits like this.... are cute and all... but when you weigh the positives (acquiring Briere, Drury, Lydman, etc)... doesn't it start to even out into average?

Below average is a view you get to only if you ignore ALL the postive things he did.

I think the high end positives and high end negatives.... even out to AVERAGE.
I think he's done some consistently bad things over the tenure of his career and made enough mistakes, be they active or inactive in nature, to not be an average GM. He's below in my book and needs to move on. And he can take his coach with him when he leaves.

I suppose at some point I'm expecting him to have the character to tell his superiors that enough is enough and leave. At least more than just the mild reprimand of LQ in the post-season presser regarding Tallinder and Lydman.

Blame ownership but another failing has been his inability to turn UFA assets into longer-term wealth. He's consistently in the position of hanging onto guys rather than making a deal and letting the youth rise from within. He did it for the first time this year with Gaustad but he let Zhitnik, Satan, the co-caps, Spacek, Tallinder, and Lydman go when any or all would've commanded a handsome futures return.

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Last edited by Chainshot: 07-31-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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07-31-2012, 11:22 AM
  #54
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I think there is a difference between a dumb contract and a bust contract.

Leino = Dumb and Gomez = Bust.

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07-31-2012, 11:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Gomez contract was one of the worst contracts of all time... no doubt. Gomez and Dipietro take the cake...

BUT...

Which contract was DUMBER at the time of signing?

Gomez, at 27 yrs old, coming off of 6 years averaging 63 pts a season? A guy who post lockout averaged 0.94 pts per game....or Leino, coming off his first and only successful NHL season with 53 pts at 27 yrs old?

We need to acknowledge that the Leino contract was Dumb... plain and simple.

Gomez contract was a complete bust... but at the time, atleast there was a track record, a history of performance, it might have been overpayment... but the guy was a 1st line playmaking center at the time.

Leino was a 3rd liner having his first moderately successful NHL season at 27 yrs old

By any comparison, at the time of signing, the Leino contract was far dumber then the Gomez contract

it's how you look at things
Personally I think that an argument can be made either way. Please don't take my statement the wrong way, I agree that the Leino deal was pretty dumb. Just not the worst in history.

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07-31-2012, 11:34 AM
  #56
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Where is the key piece to upgrade the overall skill? Sanderson was already struggling without Andrew Cassels setting him up and that was big on why the Canucks were willing to part with him. Was Warrener the #1 D-man they needed in that era? No, he was a good second pairing defensive defenseman. The team was Hasek in net and Peca shutting people down -- the move or moves to address scoring never materialized.
He made good moves in that era (outside of the Peca/Hasek debacles)... we can add Gilmour (too bad Ruff ****ed that one up), Dumont, Gratton as well.



Quote:
Regier had a hand in that just as much as Tim Rigas did. Then he waited to "maximize value" instead of bolstering a team that was about on par with the '99 unit minus Peca and that lost Dom. The double impact there of team captain and Hart-winner both going and getting two prospects, a disgruntled bum, and a draft pick? Massive loss.
"Regier's last offer was for four seasons and $11.5 million. Regier said that Peca and his agent, Don Meehan, were seeking $14 million over four seasons."

Some day, maybe Sabres fans will place some blame on Peca...

Would you be happier if the Sabres spent more, went further into debt, therefore making the "business" move of purchasing the Sabres less attractive for prospective owners to keep the team in Buffalo?

Once again, Buffalo's ownership put the franchise in position to lose it's stars... the blame for these situations should be understood in context. When you call the GM below average, and use these examples, it seems that you place all the blame on his shoulders.

Quote:
I wouldn't have minded that, but was anyone willing to work for BTG/LQ given their financials?
So, it was an extremely difficult position... one that no one would want... yet you place so much blame on the position?



Quote:
He was complicite in the Briere negotiations. Too much party line, not enough retaining top talent -- again.
again...






Quote:
11 players on IR and guys available who could be at least useful for a few weeks and he sits around like it's 2003 and he can't make a move. It's those old habits forged under the Rigas and BTG eras that I was concerned about when Pegula gave him the reins again and they're still there. Waivers costs nothing but money and plugs bodies into the lineup. For a team trying to build cache around the league, that was more of the same -- more pennywise/pound foolishness that contributed to them being on the outside when the playoffs hit. Three points this past season... that's a couple of bounces, a goal or assist somewhere in literally less than a handful of games. Take an action -- including relieving a coach who's message looks like it had gotten completely stale -- and perhaps things are a little bit better this offseason.
Yes... these are HIS flaws.... These are the things that I knock him for. Being dumb about waivers/LTIR is inexcusable. good example.

The things that are completely under his control
(in the past budget, contract issues, etc were NOT)

we haven't even gotten into the crap load of drafts prior to the last few years



Quote:
I think he's done some consistently bad things over the tenure of his career and made enough mistakes, be they active or inactive in nature, to not be an average GM. He's below in my book and needs to move on. And he can take his coach with him when he leaves.
I'd like a list of those things that were not Ownership related.
Quote:
I suppose at some point I'm expecting him to have the character to tell his superiors that enough is enough and leave. At least more than just the mild reprimand of LQ in the post-season presser regarding Tallinder and Lydman.
no you're not

Quote:
Blame ownership but another failing has been his inability to turn UFA assets into longer-term wealth. He's consistently in the position of hanging onto guys rather than making a deal and letting the youth rise from within. He did it for the first time this year with Gaustad but he let Zhitnik, Satan, the co-caps, Spacek, Tallinder, and Lydman go when any or all would've commanded a handsome futures return.
Too many times the Sabres were right in that fight for the playoffs at the deadline.

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07-31-2012, 11:41 AM
  #57
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Personally I think that an argument can be made either way. Please don't take my statement the wrong way, I agree that the Leino deal was pretty dumb. Just not the worst in history.
You also have to consider the position change, his age with only 1 full NHL season, and the fact he came out and bashed the position change only 1 year into it.

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07-31-2012, 11:42 AM
  #58
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I have a question, which deal was worse, Tim Connolly's 2006 3 year $2.9 per coming off his 2nd major concussion or Leino's contract?

Think of these deals when they were signed, not what happened after. I couldn't believe they gave Connolly 3 years at the time.

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07-31-2012, 12:38 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I have a question, which deal was worse, Tim Connolly's 2006 3 year $2.9 per coming off his 2nd major concussion or Leino's contract?

Think of these deals when they were signed, not what happened after. I couldn't believe they gave Connolly 3 years at the time.
Leino's deal was worse.

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07-31-2012, 12:45 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I have a question, which deal was worse, Tim Connolly's 2006 3 year $2.9 per coming off his 2nd major concussion or Leino's contract?

Think of these deals when they were signed, not what happened after. I couldn't believe they gave Connolly 3 years at the time.
I would call them both equally bad. But if we want to start comparing contracts:

What's worse Leino's contract or Rick DiPietro's contract?

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07-31-2012, 01:24 PM
  #61
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Good at identifying talent, lousy at building a team. Tows the party line and never puts up a fight (unless he is forced to). I like their recent drafting, though much/most of the success could likely be attributed to Kevin Devine.

I like the moves this summer. I think Hodgson was a brilliant pickup. I think that he has established a good stable of young players that can drive a very successful team in a year or two. I just think he has shown an inability to identify key pieces (Letting Dumont/Grier walk while resigning Connolly, adding lousy playoff rentals, picking Drury over Briere before losing both).

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07-31-2012, 01:29 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Good at identifying talent, lousy at building a team. Tows the party line and never puts up a fight (unless he is forced to). I like their recent drafting, though much/most of the success could likely be attributed to Kevin Devine.

I like the moves this summer. I think Hodgson was a brilliant pickup. I think that he has established a good stable of young players that can drive a very successful team in a year or two. I just think he has shown an inability to identify key pieces (Letting Dumont/Grier walk while resigning Connolly, adding lousy playoff rentals, picking Drury over Briere before losing both).


The way I hear it, he wanted Briere, but the ownership told him Drury.

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07-31-2012, 01:33 PM
  #63
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I think he's an average GM when it is undeniable that the decision was his...

I think too many of his critics rely heavily on the failures that are NOT completely his.

He deserves blame for idiotic things like LTIR and Zigo...
He doesn't react well in season... in terms of a trait of his leadership, it's probably his biggest flaw.

But the specifics of the Co caps debacle and the Dom/Peca mess... I think you could plug practically any GM EVER into those moments and the outcome is probably the same...

If your boss puts the cuffs on you... then you can only do so much. The only difference between Darcy and a more well respected GM in those scenarios... is probably that the well respected GM walks away after the Dom/Peca debacle. And the fact that Darcy was willing to work under those conditions is probably why Quinn convinced BTG to keep him around

So yes, Regier is flawed... but using those situations as the paramount issues to prove his "Below Averageness"... is weak

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07-31-2012, 01:35 PM
  #64
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...He made good moves in that era (outside of the Peca/Hasek debacles)... we can add Gilmour (too bad Ruff ****ed that one up), Dumont, Gratton as well.
I didn't say he's never made good moves in that era or others. The weight of what he's done right for me does not outway those things that he's done wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
"Regier's last offer was for four seasons and $11.5 million. Regier said that Peca and his agent, Don Meehan, were seeking $14 million over four seasons."

Some day, maybe Sabres fans will place some blame on Peca...
It took Regier months to come to that number and by then Peca was alienated. Again, the dude moves slowly, this is another classic example of it.

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Would you be happier if the Sabres spent more, went further into debt, therefore making the "business" move of purchasing the Sabres less attractive for prospective owners to keep the team in Buffalo?

Once again, Buffalo's ownership put the franchise in position to lose it's stars... the blame for these situations should be understood in context. When you call the GM below average, and use these examples, it seems that you place all the blame on his shoulders.
The right thing to do was to get the deal worked out over the summer rather than being out of communication until the end of August. Which actually reminds me of another hallmark of Regier as GM -- players comments about not having any contact with the team after they've come through. Heinze, Audette, Torres, Moore have had comments about the lack of communication upon their departure. That's on Regier to be the one letting people know what is going on from the get-go and is part of the reputation of the organization that they're now trying to buy their way out from under.

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So, it was an extremely difficult position... one that no one would want... yet you place so much blame on the position?
Regier stuck with the job. Perhaps in the long run, that's the most positive thing about him since we didn't get LQ completely puppetmastering some novice GM for the remainder of their ownership tenure.

[QUOTE=Jame;53148547]Yes... these are HIS flaws.... These are the things that I knock him for. Being dumb about waivers/LTIR is inexcusable. good example.

The things that are completely under his control
(in the past budget, contract issues, etc were NOT)

we haven't even gotten into the crap load of drafts prior to the last few years[/QUOTE

Drafting and development went sideways for a time. Particularly development.


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...I'd like a list of those things that were not Ownership related.
One can't place all the blame on ownership and pass off what Regier has done with the hockey department purely on them either.


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no you're not
What? Trying to do this while on conference calls... not following you here.

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...Too many times the Sabres were right in that fight for the playoffs at the deadline.
That's about the only clear point to lay firmly on ownership, particularly the BTG era, where playoff gate or the possibility of it was the most important aspect of any roster decision. Granted, the possibility of the young/cheap acquisitions contributing in the near-term seems to have been lost on the superior hockey mind of Larry Quinn.

He's still a below-average GM taking all of it in. He's made some good moves and he's made some poor ones... and he's failed to build on his successes. It's not "weak", it's just something you don't agree with.

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07-31-2012, 01:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
I would call them both equally bad. But if we want to start comparing contracts:

What's worse Leino's contract or Rick DiPietro's contract?
Leino's by far. DiPietro was supposed to be a consistent Vezina finalist.

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07-31-2012, 02:04 PM
  #66
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Leino's by far. DiPietro was supposed to be a consistent Vezina finalist.
They gave him a 15 year contract worth 67.5 million dollars coming off a year where he played 63 games in the NHL that year, 144 total NHL games. The year that he got that deal, he had a 3.02 GAA and a .900 save %.

At the time he had a 2.96 Career GAA, and a .89575 Career Save %.


Lets compare this to Ryan Miller:

The year that Miller got his current contract, he got a 5 year, 31.25 million dollar contract. The previous year he played 59 games, and had 264 games played in the NHL. He was coming off of a 2.73 GAA and .911 Save % season.

Just to put that into perspective, at the time RDP had only ever appeared in 6 Career playoff games.


Leino was coming off of a season in which he scored 21 pts in 19 playoff games, a 53 pt season, followed by a playoffs where he got 5 Pts in 11 games, 7 of said games were against Buffalo. Last year was Leino's Third full NHL season. I can understand why he gave Leino the BOTD. While his trust was definitely misplaced, let's see what Leino does this year before we condemn a 6 year contract. We havn't even seen him play in the playoffs yet on our team. He typically plays much better in the playoffs then he does during the regular season.


Either way, I find it difficult to call this contract the worst in NHL history after only the first year.

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07-31-2012, 02:08 PM
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Leino's by far. DiPietro was supposed to be a consistent Vezina finalist.
15 years vs 6. DiPietro's is worse by landslide. Why? Because career-derailing injuries happen in hockey, with some degree of regularity. For a budget-conscious team to sign anyone for that long is far dumber than a team for whom money is no object blowing 6 years on a guy that just wasn't worth the amount of money being thrown at him.

Edit: Also because DiPietro is basically useless at this point. While Leino may not be awesome, he can be a contributing member of the line-up.

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07-31-2012, 02:17 PM
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By the way, I am currently looking around at lists of the NHL's worst contracts. I have yet to find Ville Leino's Ranked higher then 8th. Players that I see ahead of him quite often: Gomez, Lecavlier, Bryzalov, DiPietro, Redden, Komiserek, Javenovski, Horcroff, Penner, Brian Campbell, Alexi Yashin....the list goes on....and on....


I even found an article from the Calgary Herald that has Leino's contract as the 9th worst contract given out last year. If there were 8 contracts worse then his in the year he got it, how is it that his can be the worst in NHL history?

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07-31-2012, 02:24 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I think there is a difference between a dumb contract and a bust contract.

Leino = Dumb and Gomez = Bust.
You're trying too hard to make an arguemnt that has no merit.



If he had the same season last year as he did the year before then it wouldn't be a dumb contract. Nor would you or any one else being asserting it was.

The only reason Leino's deal is being viewed as "dumb" is because of his bad season last year. But you're trying to argue its because it was dumb when he signed it.

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07-31-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
They gave him a 15 year contract worth 67.5 million dollars coming off a year where he played 63 games in the NHL that year, 144 total NHL games. The year that he got that deal, he had a 3.02 GAA and a .900 save %.

At the time he had a 2.96 Career GAA, and a .89575 Career Save %.


Lets compare this to Ryan Miller:

The year that Miller got his current contract, he got a 5 year, 31.25 million dollar contract. The previous year he played 59 games, and had 264 games played in the NHL. He was coming off of a 2.73 GAA and .911 Save % season.

Just to put that into perspective, at the time RDP had only ever appeared in 6 Career playoff games.


Leino was coming off of a season in which he scored 21 pts in 19 playoff games, a 53 pt season, followed by a playoffs where he got 5 Pts in 11 games, 7 of said games were against Buffalo. Last year was Leino's Third full NHL season. I can understand why he gave Leino the BOTD. While his trust was definitely misplaced, let's see what Leino does this year before we condemn a 6 year contract. We havn't even seen him play in the playoffs yet on our team. He typically plays much better in the playoffs then he does during the regular season.


Either way, I find it difficult to call this contract the worst in NHL history after only the first year.
Its my opinion.

Just wondering, what would your top 5 worst NHL contracts be "when signed". Before they even hit the ice, what are the worst deals?

#1 - Leino
#2 - Jeff Finger
#3 - Ricky D
#4 - Brian Campbell
#5 - Mike Komisarek

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07-31-2012, 02:30 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Just wondering, what would your top 5 worst NHL contracts be "when signed". Before they even hit the ice, what are the worst deals?

#1 - Leino
#2 - Jeff Finger
#3 - Ricky D
#4 - Brian Campbell
#5 - Mike Komisarek
Redden's is the gold standard, IMO.

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07-31-2012, 02:34 PM
  #72
Jame
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I didn't say he's never made good moves in that era or others. The weight of what he's done right for me does not outway those things that he's done wrong.
That's the crux of the issue though... the weight of what he's done wrong shouldn't be solely his to bear, based on the environment he was in.

It's ok...
Regier is to Chainshot, what Roy is to Jame



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The right thing to do was to get the deal worked out over the summer rather than being out of communication until the end of August. Which actually reminds me of another hallmark of Regier as GM -- players comments about not having any contact with the team after they've come through. Heinze, Audette, Torres, Moore have had comments about the lack of communication upon their departure. That's on Regier to be the one letting people know what is going on from the get-go and is part of the reputation of the organization that they're now trying to buy their way out from under.
that's a great point


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One can't place all the blame on ownership and pass off what Regier has done with the hockey department purely on them either.
No, but as a fan I can understand the conditions he was forced to work within, and recognize that those conditions probably played a BIGGER part in some of the big failures, then any lack of his "GMing skills".


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What? Trying to do this while on conference calls... not following you here.
you don't actually expect Regier to up and quit, now that he has an owner willing to spend???



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That's about the only clear point to lay firmly on ownership, particularly the BTG era, where playoff gate or the possibility of it was the most important aspect of any roster decision. Granted, the possibility of the young/cheap acquisitions contributing in the near-term seems to have been lost on the superior hockey mind of Larry Quinn.
agree

Quote:
He's still a below-average GM taking all of it in. He's made some good moves and he's made some poor ones... and he's failed to build on his successes. It's not "weak", it's just something you don't agree with.
Not knowing the intricate details about most other GMs and their jobs... i still find it hard to believe if All the GMs over the last decade had the truth on the table... that Regier would come out near the bottom.

I don't buy it.

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07-31-2012, 02:35 PM
  #73
BUCKSHOT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo View Post
My vote is below average. He got lucky with the rule changes after the lockout. Ever since then, he's slowly devolved the team from a Stanley Cup contender into a borderline non-playoff team.
I am not a Darcy Hater or Lover, but have always thought this (bolded)

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07-31-2012, 02:35 PM
  #74
SabresAreScaryGood
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Redden's is the gold standard, IMO.
I went with Komisarek over Redden. Redden at least had a big name, and those guys in free agency get big money.

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Old
07-31-2012, 02:35 PM
  #75
joshjull
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Its my opinion.

Just wondering, what would your top 5 worst NHL contracts be "when signed". Before they even hit the ice, what are the worst deals?

#1 - Leino
#2 - Jeff Finger
#3 - Ricky D
#4 - Brian Campbell
#5 - Mike Komisarek
Fair enough but would you at least admit its influenced by his performance this past season. I find it hard to believe you would be making this arguement if he had a strong season.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-31-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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