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Dion Phaneuf's next contract?

View Poll Results: Phaneuf's next contract
3 years @ 6.5M 54 42.86%
5 years @ 4.5M 45 35.71%
3 years @ 4M 7 5.56%
There will be no contract as he will not return tot he Leafs. 20 15.87%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-31-2012, 01:01 PM
  #451
mapleleaf979
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
Anyone who thinks Phaneuf is still overpaid doesn't grasp the market value of NHL defensemen in 2012. Ryan Whitney makes $5.5 Million, James Wisniewski makes $7 Million. Atleast do an iota of research before spouting nonsense.

Phaneuf makes what a defenseman 12th in points and tied for 6th in goals should be making. I await your hyperboles.
Phaneuf is so overpaid its not even debateable. Not sure what your thinking. U cant look at 2 players with horrid contracts and say thats the standard in which all other players should be paid. Your just making a terrible situation even worse. U could mention Mike Komasarek(4.5 million cap hit) and pay everyone according to his contract. Even though Komasarek should not make over 2.5 million. When u start making big mistakes like that u have no idea of cap management and thus your hurting your teams ability to sign other players.

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07-31-2012, 01:07 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by GreekLeafer View Post
You make sense. I like it.

People try to tear down Phaneuf, but he performs adequately on the top pairing. The advanced stats show it (too lazy to fact check). Many don't realize how much heavy lifting Phaneuf has to do because the rest of the defense are relatively bad.
That does not exist. Go look Ill wait around even if it takes you 2 weeks to find the "advanced stats". Dion Phaneuf has a terrible contract and is severely over rated . Its funny how the Flames wanted to get rid of this "superstar" . Hockey is all about... what have u done for me lately. The past means nothing. His first 3 years were insanely good. HE is a shadow of that guy. I wouldnt complain about any of this if managing the CAP is a very important part to success. A few over paid contracts leaves u with no money to spend, so u end of calling Brett Lebda, Ricard Wallin, Hanson, Crabb, Boyce, Dupuis.

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07-31-2012, 01:11 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf979 View Post
Phaneuf is so overpaid its not even debateable. Not sure what your thinking. U cant look at 2 players with horrid contracts and say thats the standard in which all other players should be paid. Your just making a terrible situation even worse. U could mention Mike Komasarek(4.5 million cap hit) and pay everyone according to his contract. Even though Komasarek should not make over 2.5 million. When u start making big mistakes like that u have no idea of cap management and thus your hurting your teams ability to sign other players.
I think he's right on the money, contract wise.
Actual comparable would be Timonen @6.3 cap hit, Dan Boyle @ 6.6, Campbell @7.1 cap hit, Burns @ 5.7 cap hit.

Those aren't 'horrid' contracts, they are fair for what they provide, and so is Phaneufs (Campbell is a little high, though).

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07-31-2012, 01:19 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
You could have explained "your" context much better by simply stating "I never meant that"...

What you wrote could logically be understood differently from what you meant.
No, you could have comprehended it better by reading the thread. This is what I said about 3 posts after I posted about Rielly coming in to compliment Dion possibly next year.

Never did I mention Dion's leadership capabilities or made excuses for it since I see nothing wrong with his captaincy. You probably missed reading the entire thread or conveniently missed it, but how you and the other poster can draw the conclusion this post was about making excuses for Dion's Captaincy is a mystery to me? It simply states he needs better support around him.

You may think Grabo is equal to Bergeron or Recchi in the leadership dept, and I will tell you you are sniffing the pipe. Got it now? Or do you still see cobwebs?

Quote:
One thing we know, Burke loves Dion. I think some of the anti Dion posters will see his value once our defence gets stronger, and he is not required to play the PP, PK, and a regular shift against the top lines of the league. Also he could use some more leadership assistance, Grabo and Komi are the Assistant A's, enuff said there. Not exactly Bergeron or Recchi types.

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07-31-2012, 01:22 PM
  #455
ALine
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf979 View Post
That does not exist. Go look Ill wait around even if it takes you 2 weeks to find the "advanced stats". Dion Phaneuf has a terrible contract and is severely over rated . Its funny how the Flames wanted to get rid of this "superstar" . Hockey is all about... what have u done for me lately. The past means nothing. His first 3 years were insanely good. HE is a shadow of that guy. I wouldnt complain about any of this if managing the CAP is a very important part to success. A few over paid contracts leaves u with no money to spend, so u end of calling Brett Lebda, Ricard Wallin, Hanson, Crabb, Boyce, Dupuis.
It took me two seconds.

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

Scroll to the leafs, You will see the usage of zone starts and quality of competition. Phaneuf has, by far, the hardest competition on a night in, night out basis, and relied to play in not only the offesnive zone heavily, but in the defensive zone as well. This clearly shows the level of resonsiblitly on the ice that Phaneuf plays is more than an other defender on the leafs.

Your point about not have enough cap left over is just plain wrong. Does LA have issues building a solid defense group giving Doughty 7 million? No they don't.

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07-31-2012, 01:47 PM
  #456
Duke Silver
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf979 View Post
That does not exist. Go look Ill wait around even if it takes you 2 weeks to find the "advanced stats". Dion Phaneuf has a terrible contract and is severely over rated . Its funny how the Flames wanted to get rid of this "superstar" . Hockey is all about... what have u done for me lately. The past means nothing. His first 3 years were insanely good. HE is a shadow of that guy. I wouldnt complain about any of this if managing the CAP is a very important part to success. A few over paid contracts leaves u with no money to spend, so u end of calling Brett Lebda, Ricard Wallin, Hanson, Crabb, Boyce, Dupuis.
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.

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07-31-2012, 03:04 PM
  #457
T M L
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Originally Posted by ALine View Post
I think he's right on the money, contract wise.
Actual comparable would be Timonen @6.3 cap hit, Dan Boyle @ 6.6, Campbell @7.1 cap hit, Burns @ 5.7 cap hit.

Those aren't 'horrid' contracts, they are fair for what they provide, and so is Phaneufs (Campbell is a little high, though).
Those contracts are all high.

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07-31-2012, 03:19 PM
  #458
Kitsy
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.
That guy is a gigantic moron and thank you for posting this. Phaneuf was our best defencemen last season by a far cry. The advanced stats are very telling.

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Old
07-31-2012, 03:27 PM
  #459
ALine
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
Those contracts are all high.
Sorry, we can't all be millionaire hockey players. Some of us have to earn min. wage stocking shelves. That fair compensation for a menial job like that.

These contracts are fair compensation for being an NHL defense-men.
If you disagree, i'm curious to know what you think fair contracts are. Not just the few gems out there like Claude Giroux's 3.75 cap hit. What do you think are fair, decent, respectable deals, T M L? Who would you compare Phaneuf to, and what contracts to they have?

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07-31-2012, 03:36 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.
Pretty much all that needs to be said right here. If anything, this shows Phaneuf needs a better partner/help.

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07-31-2012, 06:34 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
No, you could have comprehended it better by reading the thread. This is what I said about 3 posts after I posted about Rielly coming in to compliment Dion possibly next year.

Never did I mention Dion's leadership capabilities or made excuses for it since I see nothing wrong with his captaincy. You probably missed reading the entire thread or conveniently missed it, but how you and the other poster can draw the conclusion this post was about making excuses for Dion's Captaincy is a mystery to me? It simply states he needs better support around him.

You may think Grabo is equal to Bergeron or Recchi in the leadership dept, and I will tell you you are sniffing the pipe. Got it now? Or do you still see cobwebs?
It seems impossible to engage in an intelligent discussion without you resorting to insults...

A 17th century French poet, Nicolas Boileau, once wrote: "Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément" which can be translated as "What is well understood can be expressed clearly, and the words to say it come easily."

If you can't even admit that what you wrote cannot be rationally understood differently, I'll pull a Roger Neilson and .

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07-31-2012, 06:37 PM
  #462
Eb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.
Great post.

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07-31-2012, 06:38 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
Those contracts are all high.
Lol.


Last edited by Eb: 07-31-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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07-31-2012, 08:55 PM
  #464
mapleleaf979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.
Phaneuf looks good when rated against his teammates who are one of the WORST D core's in the league there. I think he should be compared to others guys who make 6.5 million or above on D. Shea Weber, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, that will give u value there. I think Dion was the second best Dman on our team behind Gardiner. For the value Id take Franson over Dion. Franson has a bomb snap shot and get Barb Underhill to improve his feet. I like Franson and dont think he gets enough ice. I really want to see Holzer on the Leafs this year. To me Dion wants to be an offensive defenseman but lacks the IQ when to pinch. He was caught so many times last year pinching when his partner pinched or pinching at a bad time. He has the tools to be a better Shut down D man at this stage in his career. He should talk less because lets be honest he can not fight. His shot got a tad more accurate last year after his stick change. His shot has alot of power and very little accuracy. Something he could fix if he works hard this summer.

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07-31-2012, 09:03 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Here are your advanced stats:

Quality of Competition
1. Phaneuf: 0.090
2. Gunnarsson: 0.071
3. Komisarek: -0.017
4. Schenn: -0.023
5. Liles: -0.024
6. Gardiner: -0.027
7. Franson: -0.031

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Even Strength)
1. Gunnarsson: 2.48
2. Franson: 2.58
3. Phaneuf: 2.80
4. Liles: 2.84
5. Gardiner: 2.99
T-6. Schenn: 3.18
T-6. Komi: 3.18

Goals Against Per 60 Mins (Penalty Kill)
1. Gardiner: 6.11
2. Phaneuf: 7.05
3. Komisarek: 7.41
4. Gunnarsson: 7.56
5. Schenn: 8.34
6. Liles:12.27
7. Franson: 29.03

And lastly, among all defencemen in the NHL who played more than 70 games last season, Phaneuf was third in terms of Quality of Competition. He faced tougher competition than Chara, Girardi, Lidstrom, Timonen, Keith, Weber, and Suter to name a few.

Within the same group of 70GP+ d-men (98 in total) his Relative Corsi Quality of Competition was eighth.

So what do you pay a defenceman who plays the third most difficult minutes in the league and also manages to end up twelfth in scoring among d-men? A sizeable amount.
Well done. It was obvious to most watching him play last year what his value is and what he means to the team; your information only solidifies what should have been obvious in the begining. Curious to see the haters responses.

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07-31-2012, 09:08 PM
  #466
ALine
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf979 View Post
Phaneuf looks good when rated against his teammates who are one of the WORST D core's in the league there. I think he should be compared to others guys who make 6.5 million or above on D. Shea Weber, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, that will give u value there. I think Dion was the second best Dman on our team behind Gardiner. For the value Id take Franson over Dion. Franson has a bomb snap shot and get Barb Underhill to improve his feet. I like Franson and dont think he gets enough ice. I really want to see Holzer on the Leafs this year. To me Dion wants to be an offensive defenseman but lacks the IQ when to pinch. He was caught so many times last year pinching when his partner pinched or pinching at a bad time. He has the tools to be a better Shut down D man at this stage in his career. He should talk less because lets be honest he can not fight. His shot got a tad more accurate last year after his stick change. His shot has alot of power and very little accuracy. Something he could fix if he works hard this summer.
Ron Wilson's system was to pinch, that was the game plan. Wilson never held his d-men back to actually play defense. D-men being caught up ice and flat footed at the oppositions blue line was purely a product of the system the coach was running. Dion's hockey IQ is fine, its Wilson that needs the lesson. Dion was just playing the system, an unsustainable, and clearly ineffective system. Watch for Dion to have a great year under Carlyle.

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07-31-2012, 09:17 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
It seems impossible to engage in an intelligent discussion without you resorting to insults...

A 17th century French poet, Nicolas Boileau, once wrote: "Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément" which can be translated as "What is well understood can be expressed clearly, and the words to say it come easily."

If you can't even admit that what you wrote cannot be rationally understood differently, I'll pull a Roger Neilson and .
A simple can you explain what you mean would have sufficed, however we both know you were more interested in a 'gotcha' moment than the actual truth.

It's okay, your claims were throughly defeated.

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07-31-2012, 09:24 PM
  #468
Interactif
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Originally Posted by ALine View Post
Ron Wilson's system was to pinch, that was the game plan. Wilson never held his d-men back to actually play defense. D-men being caught up ice and flat footed at the oppositions blue line was purely a product of the system the coach was running. Dion's hockey IQ is fine, its Wilson that needs the lesson. Dion was just playing the system, an unsustainable, and clearly ineffective system. Watch for Dion to have a great year under Carlyle.
The Bruins d pinch, or pressure the wingers by closing gaps. If anything our wingers let our D down by not backing up the D man when they force the play inside the blueline. This is not a weakness on Dion's part, it's a failure by our fwds to recognize our D forcing the play by playing aggressively. I called Watters on this when he used to harp on Dion's supposed pinching. He sort of backed off when I suggested shouldn't the wingers back up the D men as the Bruins wingers do so well. To me this has more to do with inadequate coaching than a D man not recognizing the situation. All the good teams pinch, the best one's back up the D, the Leafs were not one of those teams, and often it is the D man that looks bad when this happens, when infact it is a team problem.

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07-31-2012, 09:45 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
A simple can you explain what you mean would have sufficed, however we both know you were more interested in a 'gotcha' moment than the actual truth.

It's okay, your claims were throughly defeated.
And again with a "me versus you" moment.

Nobody should need to ask what you meant if you wrote exactly what you meant.

But I know, I know, you're never wrong...

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07-31-2012, 09:51 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
And again with a "me versus you" moment.

Nobody should need to ask what you meant if you wrote exactly what you meant.

But I know, I know, you're never wrong...
It's not about being wrong or not, you simply interpreted wrong when you injected yourself into a conversation of me asking that poster who said posters were making excuses for Dion's captaincy.

If one read the entire thread and my posts preceding that post, it was clear I was not even talking about Dion's captaincy. Can't help you more than that, you will have to figure the rest on your own.

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07-31-2012, 11:40 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
It's not about being wrong or not, you simply interpreted wrong when you injected yourself into a conversation of me asking that poster who said posters were making excuses for Dion's captaincy.

If one read the entire thread and my posts preceding that post, it was clear I was not even talking about Dion's captaincy. Can't help you more than that, you will have to figure the rest on your own.


I did not realize that I had pried into a PM.

Sorry.


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08-01-2012, 01:16 AM
  #472
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Bingo! If we lost Dion we would be losing a huge part of our D moving forward. With this now RC's team I think you will see a few guys take their game to a higher level, most notably Dion and dare I say it, Komi. (yea, i said it lol) Dions contract if fair for what he brings as the leader in points by a dman and in minutes played, tough minutes to, against the other teams best. Not to mention being the captain of a original 6 team and all that entails. I would like to see him less on the pk and get him down to around 25 mins a game most nights, just think under RC's system Dion would need more energy and dropping his minutes by one or 2 per night could really benefit him, especially down the stretch in late winter.

For all the bs some so called Leafs fans give this guy, he is a above average D man in the NHL and like the poster i quoted says, just needs some supporting guys to help out the D. With that said, unless a major major fall off, he will get $7-7.5 his next contract for 5-6 years based on the current cba and the way contract$ have gone insane.
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post

Never did I mention Dion's leadership capabilities or made excuses for it since I see nothing wrong with his captaincy. You probably missed reading the entire thread or conveniently missed it, but how you and the other poster can draw the conclusion this post was about making excuses for Dion's Captaincy is a mystery to me? It simply states he needs better support around him.

You may think Grabo is equal to Bergeron or Recchi in the leadership dept, and I will tell you you are sniffing the pipe. Got it now? Or do you still see cobwebs?

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08-01-2012, 08:33 AM
  #473
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by Leafs24Seven View Post
For all the bs some so called Leafs fans give this guy, he is a above average D man in the NHL and like the poster i quoted says, just needs some supporting guys to help out the D.
How many people are saying he is a bad defenseman?

It is okay to acknowledge players have weaknesses. It actually makes no sense to believe they are perfect or get your shorts in a knott when those weaknesses are pointed out.

I don't think it is a newsflash to acknowledge Phaneuf makes mistakes on the ice, that he isn't the smartest defender in the league. IMO he isn't the smartest defender by a long shot on the Leafs, but he is probably the best defenseman at this time. His physical tools make up for his non-physical tools.

It would be great if the Leafs could bring in a better defender, or a equal defender and take some of the load off Phaneuf, who looked finished before the season ended this year. A lot of pressure on a player without the experience to handle being Captain and dealing with such a poor team. Has Phaneuf ever been on a team this bad? I'm not sure, but I'd guess his teams until arriving in Toronto were decent, or at least competitive.

Phaneuf is a fine defenseman.

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Originally Posted by Leafs24Seven View Post
With that said, unless a major major fall off, he will get $7-7.5 his next contract for 5-6 years based on the current cba and the way contract$ have gone insane.
It is possible Phaneuf lands this type of contract, but it might depend on the new CBA.

My concern with this type of contract is how much would you have to pay a better defender if you gave Phaneuf this much? Keith makes 8 million, but that's on a front loaded contract.

He'll be 29 starting his next contract, 6 years to age 35. I just think 7 million is going to be too much for a 34 year Phaneuf, when Rielly is going to need his 2nd. contract before Phaneuf's is done (again depending on CBA).

Maybe if they front load the deal, and his salary is around 4.5 the last couple years, so that he could be moved if necessary at that time.

9+9+7+7+5.5+4.5

Overpay the first 2 years, for a lower last 2 years.

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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Old
08-01-2012, 10:35 AM
  #474
LordRamsay
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
How many people are saying he is a bad defenseman?
A few trolls.

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