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07-31-2012, 03:30 PM
  #251
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Do the people at Broadstreethockey seriously think Briere could get Myers?
If you read the whole thing they think Sekera is a realistic option.

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07-31-2012, 03:33 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
If you read the whole thing they think Sekera is a realistic option.
That is a bad trade for the Flyers.

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07-31-2012, 03:35 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
If you read the whole thing they think Sekera is a realistic option.
I stopped reading after they said Myers was an option.. Their articles are terrible and they cherry pick advanced stats to suit them

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07-31-2012, 03:35 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Same guys that think that Matt Carle was equal to Ryan Suter.
The funny thing is hockeyabstract.com has come up with the 10 most similar players for each player in the league and Suter is Carle's #2 most similar player.

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07-31-2012, 03:36 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
The funny thing is hockeyabstract.com has come up with the 10 most similar players for each player in the league and Suter is Carle's #2 most similar player.
Let me guess.. Advanced stats used?

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07-31-2012, 03:38 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
I stopped reading after they said Myers was an option.. Their articles are terrible and they cherry pick advanced stats to suit them
An argument is only credible if there are facts to back them up. I take them more seriously than those who think they have all of the answers because they watch the game.

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07-31-2012, 03:39 PM
  #257
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Let me guess.. Advanced stats used?
They use traditional stats plus GVT.

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07-31-2012, 03:39 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
An argument is only credible if there are facts to back them up. I take them more seriously than those who think they have all of the answers because they watch the game.
So, if I manipulated advanced stats to say Lilja is better than Weber, does that make Lilja better?

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07-31-2012, 03:42 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
An argument is only credible if there are facts to back them up. I take them more seriously than those who think they have all of the answers because they watch the game.
Everyone that drinks water dies... That's a fact.

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07-31-2012, 03:44 PM
  #260
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Hey there. Not sure if there are any Canadian Flyers fans on here, but I figure I might as well drop this link here. Apparently, you can pre-order NHL13 through EB Games' online store and be entered into a draw for a chance to win a signed Claude Giroux jersey.

http://www.ebgames.ca/collection/nhl...d=soc_10002197

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07-31-2012, 03:46 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
So, if I manipulated advanced stats to say Lilja is better than Weber, does that make Lilja better?
That's pretty ridiculous considering Carle is a lot closer to Suter than Lilja is to Weber.

The problem is people don't like to be confronted with evidence that shows their beliefs may be wrong. It's easier for people to dismiss the evidence then admit the possibility that they are wrong. I find those who supply the facts to be more credible than those who dismiss them without providing facts of their own.

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07-31-2012, 03:51 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
That's pretty ridiculous considering Carle is a lot closer to Suter than Lilja is to Weber.

The problem is people don't like to be confronted with evidence that shows their beliefs may be wrong. It's easier for people to dismiss the evidence then admit the possibility that they are wrong. I find those who supply the facts to be more credible than those who dismiss them without providing facts of their own.
I've seen all of carle's games since he's been here and all of Suter's games since Forsberg went there.. I can tell you that no matter what advanced stats you throw up to support your argument, Carle is in no way, shape, or form comparable to Suter

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07-31-2012, 03:55 PM
  #263
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If you look at Carle's advanced stats from last year they show he wasn't very good on defense, which isn't surprising. What is surprising is they show that the team was less productive overall on offense while Carle was on the ice compared to almost every other defenseman. That makes sense when you think about it, though...his shot is really bad...it essentially makes him a one dimensional player; passing to his partner or the winger were generally his only real options at even strength. When he's on the ice it's unlikely offense will be generated from the blue line, unless he pinched in...which leaves a defensive gap.

I for one am glad we didn't overpay for an offensive defenseman who isn't very good at offense...or defense. He's clearly a complimentary player who has no business leading a pairing, and at 5.5mil..yeesh.

Carle is overrated because he puts up assists. I'm unimpressed. He accumulated those through sheer amount of ice time on a top offensive team.

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07-31-2012, 03:57 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
An argument is only credible if there are facts to back them up. I take them more seriously than those who think they have all of the answers because they watch the game.
If Stats were the be all and end all of talent comparison, then why is Alexandre Daigle considered a massive 1st round bust, and St louis considered a great NHL player.

If we are going to break down their junior stats, then Daigle was clearly a better player, and should be right now. Thats concrete evidence. Daigle scored 150 points in a junior season.

Stats are not the defining factor in deciding a players worth and ability. Advanced statistics are even more of a joke. How to you determine a good defensive player and a bad one.

You go by stats, and an defensive defenseman has 25 turn-overs in the league. Another has 35 in the same season. The first players turnovers result in 20 goals against, the second players 0 against.

Which is the better defensive player?

I can play this game all day.

My favourite is that several poor defensemen outscore Couturier this year in points. Thats a concrete fact. Does that mean that all other defenseman have more offensive ability than Couturier.

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07-31-2012, 03:58 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
If you look at Carle's advanced stats from last year they show he wasn't very good on defense, which isn't surprising. What is surprising is they show that the team was less productive overall on offense while Carle was on the ice compared to almost every other defenseman. That makes sense when you think about it, though...his shot is really bad...it essentially makes him a one dimensional player; passing to his partner or the winger were generally his only real options at even strength. When he's on the ice it's unlikely offense will be generated from the blue line, unless he pinched in...which leaves a defensive gap.

I for one am glad we didn't overpay for an offensive defenseman who isn't very good at offense...or defense. He's clearly a complimentary player who has no business leading a pairing, and at 5.5mil..yeesh.

Carle is overrated because he puts up assists. I'm unimpressed. He accumulated those through sheer amount of ice time on a top offensive team.
What he said. Exactly what he said

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07-31-2012, 03:59 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post

You go by stats, and an defensive defenseman has 25 turn-overs in the league. Another has 35 in the same season. The first players turnovers result in 20 goals against, the second players 0 against.

Which is the better defensive player?
Well, advanced GA stats would reflect those occurences. The GAON/60 of the player with more goals against would be higher than the one with less.

I'm not saying you can make definitive statements about players using stats alone without watching them, but used in conjunction with the eyeball test they can be very revealing.

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07-31-2012, 04:05 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
I've seen all of carle's games since he's been here and all of Suter's games since Forsberg went there.. I can tell you that no matter what advanced stats you throw up to support your argument, Carle is in no way, shape, or form comparable to Suter
Sorry but I don't find your scouting expertise to be all that meaningful.

That said, I do think it was a bit of a stretch to say Carle = Suter, but there certainly isn't a $65M difference either. I'd rather have Carle at his deal than Suter as his. I think that was more of their point. The gap between them wasn't the large to justify Suter's monster deal.

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07-31-2012, 04:05 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Well, advanced GA stats would reflect those occurences. The GAON/60 of the player with more goals against would be higher than the one with less.

I'm not saying you can make definitive statements about players using stats alone without watching them, but used in conjunction with the eyeball test they can be very revealing.
What happens when the guy with fewer goals conceded through turnovers, plays on a worse team, Say they get hammered 10-0 three straight games, defensive player just happens to be on the ice for the goals through bad changes ect, but is spectacular for the other 79 games of the season.

My point is that stats mean absolutly nothing alone. One guy has 500 hits, the other has 200 hits. The 200 hits are far more punishing and cause a drop in opposition play ect.

Cleary the 500 hits are more valuable though right?

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07-31-2012, 04:08 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Sorry but I don't find your scouting expertise to be all that meaningful.

That said, I do think it was a bit of a stretch to say Carle = Suter, but there certainly isn't a $65M difference either. I'd rather have Carle at his deal than Suter as his. I think that was more of their point. The gap between them wasn't the large to justify Suter's monster deal.
sooo.........

Suters shot is clearly not an improvement over Carles?
His transition game is far better, along with his breakout pass.
He hits more, and more agressively.
He isn't out-muscled in the corners.

It's quite easy to provide video evidence. But that would go against the stats right? While you may not rate our scouting abilties, what about GM's. There were at least 20 teams lining up to sign Suter, if not more, to a lifetime contract. Where were those contracts for Carle if he was just as valuable?

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07-31-2012, 04:09 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Sorry but I don't find your scouting expertise to be all that meaningful.

That said, I do think it was a bit of a stretch to say Carle = Suter, but there certainly isn't a $65M difference either. I'd rather have Carle at his deal than Suter as his. I think that was more of their point. The gap between them wasn't the large to justify Suter's monster deal.
So, you don't find my scouting to be meaningful because I'm not shoving statistics down people's throats?

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07-31-2012, 04:22 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What happens when the guy with fewer goals conceded through turnovers, plays on a worse team, Say they get hammered 10-0 three straight games, defensive player just happens to be on the ice for the goals through bad changes ect, but is spectacular for the other 79 games of the season

My point is that stats mean absolutly nothing alone. One guy has 500 hits, the other has 200 hits. The 200 hits are far more punishing and cause a drop in opposition play ect.

Cleary the 500 hits are more valuable though right?
If he's playing on a bad team he will still be one of the best statistically on that team, regardless of those games. It's not like he'd be the only person on the ice, so others' stats would take a hit; on top of that, those are extreme examples...no player is that unlucky. Also, his spectacular play would bring the stats back to normal over time while his teammate's lacking play will lower theirs.

I don't compare player's stats across teams to say "X is better than X!" because those players are in different situations; difference in goalie alone makes me wary of doing that. For players on the same team though, it's a safe comparison.

Hits are a crap stat because they are highly subjective. I wouldn't look at hits stats as a serious indicator of play...that's another eyeball test deal for me, at least. Who knows, maybe some guy's home statistician gives him credit for every minor bump, while some bone-crusher on a different team has a guy who only credits him for shattering someone's pelvis. That's another stat that I'd be wary of comparing across teams...on the same team, at least every player is dealing with the same bean counters every game.

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07-31-2012, 04:22 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
If Stats were the be all and end all of talent comparison, then why is Alexandre Daigle considered a massive 1st round bust, and St louis considered a great NHL player.

If we are going to break down their junior stats, then Daigle was clearly a better player, and should be right now. Thats concrete evidence. Daigle scored 150 points in a junior season.

Stats are not the defining factor in deciding a players worth and ability. Advanced statistics are even more of a joke. How to you determine a good defensive player and a bad one.
You're comparing junior stats to NHL stats?

Junior stats are a lot more problematic. For one there simply isn't enough information. They don't record simple stats such as ice time or shooting percentage. A player who finishes with 100 points playing 30 minutes a night is a lot different than a player who finishes with 100 points playing 18 minutes a night. The problem is this information isn't available to distinguish between the two. A player could have a lucky year with shooting percentage like when Jordan Staal scored 29 goals his rookie year because 20% of his shots went in, but scouts have no way of knowing this because this information isn't provided. It's not so much a problem with the stats, but more of a lack of stats to put everything in context.

Quote:
You go by stats, and an defensive defenseman has 25 turn-overs in the league. Another has 35 in the same season. The first players turnovers result in 20 goals against, the second players 0 against.

Which is the better defensive player?
I don't know. What is the quality of their goalie? You can't simply judge a skater on goals against alone when there are multiple factors that go into a goal being scored. If a goalie lets in a soft goal is that the defenders fault? No, but it would it would effect the defender's stats.


Quote:
I can play this game all day.

My favourite is that several poor defensemen outscore Couturier this year in points. Thats a concrete fact. Does that mean that all other defenseman have more offensive ability than Couturier.
If you look at the usage stats then these questions wouldn't come up. This isn't an argument against stats, but an argument against using them without proper context. Like when Leafs fans are claiming Gardiner has higher upside because he finished with more points. You can simply look at their usage stats and see how Couturier was placed in a tougher role than the defenseman. The ignorance isn't in the stat, but the person making such a claim.

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07-31-2012, 04:26 PM
  #273
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So, you don't find my scouting to be meaningful because I'm not shoving statistics down people's throats?
No because I frankly doubt you have watched Nasvhille as often as you are claiming. Also because we all watch the game with preconceived notions which colors our perception.

The anti-Carter crowd (I don't know if you are one of them) are the poster people for this. They focused so much on his missed shots that they complete ignore that he was one of the top goal scorers in the league over his past 3 seasons here.

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07-31-2012, 04:46 PM
  #274
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All these advanced stats are bogus. If a guy sucks, he sucks. If he's good, he's good. Dividing goals for by goals against plus assists multiplied by the Gretzky Ratio squared means a lot less than seeing the guy on the ice. Carle is nowhere near Suter, regardless of what his GFDSGT is.

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07-31-2012, 04:47 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
No because I frankly doubt you have watched Nasvhille as often as you are claiming. Also because we all watch the game with preconceived notions which colors our perception.

The anti-Carter crowd (I don't know if you are one of them) are the poster people for this. They focused so much on his missed shots that they complete ignore that he was one of the top goal scorers in the league over his past 3 seasons here.
Alright, completely ignore that Nashville has been my 2nd favorite team since Forsberg went there

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