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2012 Free Agency Thread - Part XXII: Doan Go Breakin My Heart Edition

View Poll Results: So where do you think we go from here?
RayRay will sign a UFA quality wing in the preseason 4 2.67%
RayRay will sign a UFA grinder because that’s just how we roll 13 8.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a quality wing 19 12.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a grinder 2 1.33%
RayRay will give Adams a $11.5 million raise. 22 14.67%
RayRay will swing a trade deadline trade for a quality wing 62 41.33%
RayRay will buy himself $12 million of bling and rock this house 10 6.67%
Who gives a ****? Edward and Bella broke up, OMG 18 12.00%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-31-2012, 08:02 PM
  #276
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Kunitz has no durability issues. The two seasons he missed games with injury - those were the anomalous ones. Since 06-07, which is the first year he broke into the league as an opening night roster player, he's played 81, 82, 82, 50, 66, 82 games. Going all the way back to his pro debut, he's got three seasons out of nine where he's missed time with injury.

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07-31-2012, 08:15 PM
  #277
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Ya that's about what I'd say. The thing is, we have two first line centers so people want us to get 4 first line wings. That is not an easy thing to do.
Nobody wants 4 first line wingers. Is it too much to ask though for 2 first line wingers? When you have the 2 best centers in the world, you cater to them. You build your team around them. You throw them a bone and give them talent to play alongside them, so that they themselves can reach their full potential as well.

We are in a unique position that we probably never will be in again.. He'll NO team may ever be. Having 2 centers that not only are going down as 2 of the best in team history, but may in league history as well. 2 kids basically the same age coming up together that need a little help. Outside of Sid and Geno putting the team on their back our Cup year, we would have nothing to show for all that talent.

Kunitz and Dupuis are fine top 6 third wheels.. We get Crosbys Neal and this team is that much more dynamic. Unbeatable, perhaps. But until then, we're simply a team ignoring our strengths and wasting prime years of our 2 superstars.

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07-31-2012, 08:29 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by wheelz87 View Post
Nobody wants 4 first line wingers. Is it too much to ask though for 2 first line wingers? When you have the 2 best centers in the world, you cater to them. You build your team around them. You throw them a bone and give them talent to play alongside them, so that they themselves can reach their full potential as well.

We are in a unique position that we probably never will be in again.. He'll NO team may ever be. Having 2 centers that not only are going down as 2 of the best in team history, but may in league history as well. 2 kids basically the same age coming up together that need a little help. Outside of Sid and Geno putting the team on their back our Cup year, we would have nothing to show for all that talent.

Kunitz and Dupuis are fine top 6 third wheels.. We get Crosbys Neal and this team is that much more dynamic. Unbeatable, perhaps. But until then, we're simply a team ignoring our strengths and wasting prime years of our 2 superstars.
We have Neal and Kunitz. That's one of the best pairs of top 6 wings in the league. We just split them across two centers. We don't have two all-star wingers. That's what you want. I would love it too but its not an easy thing to do. Those guys aren't available very often. When they are every team in the league wants them. Shero can't just decide he wants one and then immediately go out and get one.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 07-31-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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07-31-2012, 08:35 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by wheelz87 View Post
Nobody wants 4 first line wingers. Is it too much to ask though for 2 first line wingers? When you have the 2 best centers in the world, you cater to them. You build your team around them. You throw them a bone and give them talent to play alongside them, so that they themselves can reach their full potential as well.

We are in a unique position that we probably never will be in again.. He'll NO team may ever be. Having 2 centers that not only are going down as 2 of the best in team history, but may in league history as well. 2 kids basically the same age coming up together that need a little help. Outside of Sid and Geno putting the team on their back our Cup year, we would have nothing to show for all that talent.

Kunitz and Dupuis are fine top 6 third wheels.. We get Crosbys Neal and this team is that much more dynamic. Unbeatable, perhaps. But until then, we're simply a team ignoring our strengths and wasting prime years of our 2 superstars.
Those two generational talents also come at a price. About 9 mil a year each. There has only been so much money to go around all this time. Especially when so much was also being doled out to Staal, Orpik, Fleury, Martin, etc. Do you really think Shero hasn't been trying to get the best winger he could for his star centers while also keeping the rest of the team balanced? I mean christ he's already traded for a young 40 goal winger and locked him up to a bargain contract. This offseason he threw a ton of money at Parise, was rumored to be in the running for Nash and has made a solid offer to Doan. I'm not sure what it is people want him to do.

But the bigger question for me is, why is this such a pressing concern? I mean is this about winning games or is it about Crosby/Malkin winning scoring titles? The Pens haven't exactly struggled to score goals. I have no idea how, somewhere between the loss to Philly and now, people came to the conclusion that the team desperately needs more scoring. I mean was I watching the same series as everyone else?

Offensively, what we lost in Staal and Sullivan will more than be made up for by Crosby and Sutter. I'd be willing to bet quite a lot that if this team has trouble winning games this season, it'll have very little to do with our offense.

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07-31-2012, 08:38 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
Kunitz has no durability issues. The two seasons he missed games with injury - those were the anomalous ones. Since 06-07, which is the first year he broke into the league as an opening night roster player, he's played 81, 82, 82, 50, 66, 82 games. Going all the way back to his pro debut, he's got three seasons out of nine where he's missed time with injury.
Yeah..... so he's now missing a bunch of games due to injury as he's gotten older... and that somehow isn't a sign of durability problems?

Not trying to be a dick, but cmon man - what you typed just made no sense whatosever.

That's like saying a 1992 Jaguar that recently hit 100K miles and underwent $5K in repairs is as durable as a brand new car. Does not compute.

The style of play that Kunitz plays does not age very well, as evidenced by the amount of games he's missed the past few seasons. Based on that data, durability is a big concern for me.

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07-31-2012, 08:38 PM
  #281
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Those two generational talents also come at a price. About 9 mil a year each. There has only been so much money to go around all this time. Especially when so much was also being doled out to Staal, Orpik, Fleury, Martin, etc. Do you really think Shero hasn't been trying to get the best winger he could for his star centers while also keeping the rest of the team balanced? I mean christ he's already traded for a young 40 goal winger and locked him up to a bargain contract. This offseason he threw a ton of money at Parise, was rumored to be in the running for Nash and has made a solid offer to Doan. I'm not sure what it is people want him to do.

But the bigger question for me is, why is this such a pressing concern? I mean is this about winning games or is it about Crosby/Malkin winning scoring titles? The Pens haven't exactly struggled to score goals. I have no idea how, somewhere between the loss to Philly and now, people came to the conclusion that the team desperately needs more scoring. I mean was I watching the same series as everyone else?


Offensively, what we lost in Staal and Sullivan will more than be made up for by Crosby and Sutter. I'd be willing to bet quite a lot that if this team has trouble winning games this season, it'll have very little to do with our offense.
Exactly. We need better forwards. They don't necessarily have to score more to be better though.

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07-31-2012, 08:39 PM
  #282
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Yeah..... so he missed a ton of games as he's gotten older... and that somehow isn't a sign of durability problems?

Not trying to be a dick, but cmon man - what you typed just made no sense whatosever.
Two injuries does not make a trend.

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07-31-2012, 08:41 PM
  #283
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We have Neal and Kunitz. That's one of the best pairs of top 6 wings in the league. We just split them across two centers. We don't have two all-star wingers. That's what you want. I would love it too but its not an easy thing to do. Those guys aren't available very often. When they are every team in the league wants them. Shero can't just decide he wants one and then immediately go out and get one.
im not going to go thru all the teams in the league, but that really sounds like a gross exaggeration.

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07-31-2012, 08:42 PM
  #284
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Two injuries does not make a trend.
The stats say otherwise.

246 regular season hockey games were played in the past 3 years.

Kunitz suited up for 198 of them... he missed 19.5% of games, or roughly 1 in 5. I'm not sure how you could argue that the guy is durable. The numbers don't lie.

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07-31-2012, 08:44 PM
  #285
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Kunitz is a Shero type winger. Very good two way game & physical. These are the kind of players that make cup winners which is why Shero passes on the Semin's.

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07-31-2012, 08:47 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
The stats say otherwise.

246 regular season hockey games were played in the past 3 years.

Kunitz suited up for 198 of them... he missed 19.5% of games, or roughly 1 in 5. I'm not sure how you could argue that the guy is durable. The numbers don't lie.
no, the stats show that he missed a lot of games. I don't know why you are using games played to show how often a guy gets injured. You need to use how many times he got hurt if you want to argue that he gets hurt often.

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07-31-2012, 08:51 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
The stats say otherwise.

246 regular season hockey games were played in the past 3 years.

Kunitz suited up for 198 of them... he missed 19.5% of games, or roughly 1 in 5. I'm not sure how you could argue that the guy is durable. The numbers don't lie.
people also like to say crosby is not injury prone, so... yeah, i wouldnt lose sleep over this one.

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07-31-2012, 08:54 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Yeah..... so he's now missing a bunch of games due to injury as he's gotten older... and that somehow isn't a sign of durability problems?

Not trying to be a dick, but cmon man - what you typed just made no sense whatosever.

That's like saying a 1992 Jaguar that recently hit 100K miles and underwent $5K in repairs is as durable as a brand new car. Does not compute.

The style of play that Kunitz plays does not age very well, as evidenced by the amount of games he's missed the past few seasons. Based on that data, durability is a big concern for me.
He played 82 games last year. Which was also statistically his best.

And that's one of the worst analogies I've heard in my life.

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07-31-2012, 08:54 PM
  #289
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people also like to say crosby is not injury prone, so... yeah, i wouldnt lose sleep over this one.
you really don't see the problem in using two injuries over 6 years as evidence of being injury prone?

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07-31-2012, 08:57 PM
  #290
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What were Kunitz's injuries? An abdominal tear and groin injury? From 18-24 months ago? It's not like his back is breaking down or has paper knees.

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07-31-2012, 08:59 PM
  #291
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Question: Two players both miss 60 games over 6 years. Are they both equally injury prone?

Answer: You don't know, that's not enough information.


Player A plays for 6 years and misses about 10 games a year with minor injuries like pulled muscles and sprains.

Player B plays for 6 years and misses 30 games twice, once for a broken wrist once for a sports hernia. In total he misses 60 games over 6 years.

One of those guys shows a trend of injuries, one of them does not.

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07-31-2012, 09:00 PM
  #292
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you really don't see the problem in using two injuries over 6 years as evidence of being injury prone?
eh kinda, but even though kunitz didnt miss time this past season, he looked less effective at times, with people speculating that he was playing thru an injury.

perhaps hes not injury prone, but hes not particularly durable either.

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07-31-2012, 09:00 PM
  #293
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Its not about scoring goals.. Yes of course that's going to happen if we get -insert top 6 winger for Crosby- but it's more than that. Look at Philly, they destroyed us because of possession. Every time they took it into our zone, they were making stuff happen. Blame it on our D or tip your cap to their skilled forwards. I'm going with the latter. Why was Giroux ungodly that series? Because it was either he beats you, or Briere does. Or Voracek. Or Hartnell. Or Couturier. Or Read/Schenn/Jagr/Simmonds/JVR..

All of those players can beat you. They are skilled. I love Dupuis, one of my favorites. And he's good for 20 in the regular season. but who isn't playing with Sid? Sully was a nice player but he's too small for playoff hockey. Dupuis and Sullivan arent able/skilled enough to cycle for 25-30 seconds with Sid and to get a few shots on net. it's enter the zone, Sid gives a drop pass to Dups and there's our slapper. If it doesn't go in, that's our possession.

We were hemmed in the whole damn series against Philly. Time to reverse the roles. Get some skill into the lineup. Honest question, besides the big 3 forwards, do you think any of the others are above average in SKILLS? Not in terms of hockey players, but just pure talent. I don't think so, and at some point that catches up to you.

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07-31-2012, 09:00 PM
  #294
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I think people are concerned since he is turning 33 in September. He has broken down a bit over the last couple of years. His style of play results in more injuries and not great longevity. I will be very concerned in a year or 2 when he turns 35. I know bill guerin played well beyond 35, but he is in the minority.

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07-31-2012, 09:03 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by wheelz87 View Post
Its not about scoring goals.. Yes of course that's going to happen if we get -insert top 6 winger for Crosby- but it's more than that. Look at Philly, they destroyed us because of possession. Every time they took it into our zone, they were making stuff happen. Blame it on our D or tip your cap to their skilled forwards. I'm going with the latter. Why was Giroux ungodly that series? Because it was either he beats you, or Briere does. Or Voracek. Or Hartnell. Or Couturier. Or Read/Schenn/Jagr/Simmonds/JVR..

All of those players can beat you. They are skilled. I love Dupuis, one of my favorites. And he's good for 20 in the regular season. but who isn't playing with Sid? Sully was a nice player but he's too small for playoff hockey. Dupuis and Sullivan arent able/skilled enough to cycle for 25-30 seconds with Sid and to get a few shots on net. it's enter the zone, Sid gives a drop pass to Dups and there's our slapper. If it doesn't go in, that's our possession.

We were hemmed in the whole damn series against Philly. Time to reverse the roles. Get some skill into the lineup. Honest question, besides the big 3 forwards, do you think any of the others are above average in SKILLS? Not in terms of hockey players, but just pure talent. I don't think so, and at some point that catches up to you.
I would say adding size and grit would work too. Guys like Kunitz go a long way to the puck possession you are talking about. Obviously skill works too. But Sullivan has lots of skill. You need a good mix. I agree with the general premise though: we need guys that help us control the puck and the general flow of the game.

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07-31-2012, 09:05 PM
  #296
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eh kinda, but even though kunitz didnt miss time this past season, he looked less effective at times, with people speculating that he was playing thru an injury.

perhaps hes not injury prone, but hes not particularly durable either.
he just played 82 games in what may have been the best season of his career. Really though, as a school teacher I'm more annoyed by his misuse of data than I am about any comments about Kunitz.

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07-31-2012, 09:20 PM
  #297
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Its not about scoring goals.. Yes of course that's going to happen if we get -insert top 6 winger for Crosby- but it's more than that. Look at Philly, they destroyed us because of possession. Every time they took it into our zone, they were making stuff happen. Blame it on our D or tip your cap to their skilled forwards. I'm going with the latter. Why was Giroux ungodly that series? Because it was either he beats you, or Briere does. Or Voracek. Or Hartnell. Or Couturier. Or Read/Schenn/Jagr/Simmonds/JVR..

All of those players can beat you. They are skilled. I love Dupuis, one of my favorites. And he's good for 20 in the regular season. but who isn't playing with Sid? Sully was a nice player but he's too small for playoff hockey. Dupuis and Sullivan arent able/skilled enough to cycle for 25-30 seconds with Sid and to get a few shots on net. it's enter the zone, Sid gives a drop pass to Dups and there's our slapper. If it doesn't go in, that's our possession.

We were hemmed in the whole damn series against Philly. Time to reverse the roles. Get some skill into the lineup. Honest question, besides the big 3 forwards, do you think any of the others are above average in SKILLS? Not in terms of hockey players, but just pure talent. I don't think so, and at some point that catches up to you.
Dupuis was good for 20 this season and that was without Crosby. But regardless of that, the fact remains that wanting something and actually making it happen are two different things. You can list off the Flyers forwards all you want, but at the end of the day, none of them are close to Crosby/Malkin's level and only one of them is clearly better than Neal. The point being that our "top forwards" are above every other teams' "top forwards" by a decent margin. That changes the way our team is built.

I do agree that we could use some quality forwards. Puck possession is important, but as Ogrezilla said, guys that bring size and grit are just as important right now. Guys that are defensively responsible. Making this team difficult to play against again should be priority number one. But let's be honest, finding wingers who are good defensively, physical and offensively gifted enough to keep up with Crosby is a pretty tough task. And prying one away from another team is even tougher.

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07-31-2012, 10:09 PM
  #298
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im not going to go thru all the teams in the league, but that really sounds like a gross exaggeration.
It seems like an exaggeration to me.

Better:
Anaheim (Perry, Ryan)
San Jose (Marleau, Havlat)
Dallas (Eriksson, Whitney)
Vancouver (Burrows, Sedin)
Edmonton (Hall, Eberle)
Minnesota (Parise, Heatley)
Chicago (Kane, Hossa)
Carolina (Semin, Skinner)
Toronto(Kessel, Lupul)
Boston (Seguin, Lucic)
Buffalo (Pominville, Vanek)
NYR (Gaborik, Nash)
NJ (Kovalchuk, Elias)


Slightly better or close to the same:
LA (Brown, Carter)
Tampa (St. Louis, Malone/Purcell)
Winnipeg (Wheeler, Kane)
Philadelphia (Hartnell, Briere)

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07-31-2012, 10:11 PM
  #299
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tweets comin out hes headed to Vancouver. Well ray now what?

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07-31-2012, 10:14 PM
  #300
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Dupuis was good for 20 this season and that was without Crosby. But regardless of that, the fact remains that wanting something and actually making it happen are two different things. You can list off the Flyers forwards all you want, but at the end of the day, none of them are close to Crosby/Malkin's level and only one of them is clearly better than Neal. The point being that our "top forwards" are above every other teams' "top forwards" by a decent margin. That changes the way our team is built.

I do agree that we could use some quality forwards. Puck possession is important, but as Ogrezilla said, guys that bring size and grit are just as important right now. Guys that are defensively responsible. Making this team difficult to play against again should be priority number one. But let's be honest, finding wingers who are good defensively, physical and offensively gifted enough to keep up with Crosby is a pretty tough task. And prying one away from another team is even tougher.
The fact is, Sid and Malkin play on separate lines. You key in on one of them and make the others beat you. Obvious strategy. With Sid playing by himself, you make Dupuis beat you. Or Kunitz. Other teams will take that ALL DAY. Geno finally has Neal, and IMO, Neal was the 2nd best Penguin in that series behind Staal. Why? Because they had to cover Geno! With the Flyers, you can't key in on one. They all have the talent to beat you.

Listen.. I'm not trying to build a lineup identical to Philly.. but the fact remains they are one of the best, if not the best, in the East. You have to go through them to be the best. And right now, they are better. 7 game series against them, they will take it. And don't take this another way, I know its July 31st. I'm just saying as of right now, we have 10 million in cap space. It sucks we weren't able to make a splash. I'm not here blaming that on Shero. I want the Pens to win it all as much as anyone. But after going through years and years of Satan, Fedotenko, Sullivan, Armstrong, Hilbert, Ouellet, TK, Cooke, Poni.. I just feel this team would be just something else if we added skill to the lineup rather than grit, and hockey sense, and toughness. Let some of that slip to the third line.

IMO, our best team in the Crosby/Malkin era was the team that lost to the Wings. We had EVERYTHING that year. Hossa-Sid-Dups, Sykora-Malkin-Malone, Cooke-Staal-TK. PERFECT. That's how a team is built. That team would have won most years, they were simply a bit young to and played a disgusting Red Wings team. That series easily could have gone our way if not for the retarded goals they scored early in that series. I just want something similar to that. A little skill helping Sid and Geno.

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