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Most underrated hockey players of all time

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Old
07-30-2012, 02:55 AM
  #151
jonlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iCanada View Post
Maybe not the most underrated player of all time, but I think Esa Tikkanen is pretty damn underrated.

He put up solid numbers throughout his career while being an absolute pain in the neck for anyone on the other team. Seven time runner up for the selke trophy, with 244 goals, 630 points, and 1077 PIMs in 877 NHL games in the NHL regular season.

Not only that but he was an absolute monster in the playoffs too, often shadowing the best player on the other team while putting up fantastic numbers and scoring clutch series winning goals; in 186 playoff games he scored 72 goals, 132 points, and 275 PIMs.

Big, gritty, annoying, complete player. Like a mixture of Jere Lehtinen, Matthew Barnaby, and Patrik Elias.
I`d remember reading that he was the 1 player Gretzky really hated to play against after leaving Oil-county...

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Old
07-31-2012, 10:32 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
Season ......................... Gretzky Goals.......Bossy Goals
78-79 .................................. 43 ................ 53
79-80 .................................. 51 ................ 69
80-81 .................................. 55 ................ 51
81-82 .................................. 92 ................ 68
82-83 .................................. 71 ................ 64
83-84 .................................. 87 ................ 60
84-85 .................................. 73 ................ 58
85-86 .................................. 52 ................ 61
TOTAL GOALS....................... 524 .............. 484
GAMES PLAYED.......................625 .............. 616
GPG ....................................0.83 ............. 0.79

Does anyone else hold up to Gretzky's stats that well, including beating him in goals scored during 3 of Gretzky's 10 best seasons?

If you watched a random game during these years, you'd have an 83% chance of seeing Gretzky score a goal and a 79% chance of seeing Bossy score.
Why are you including Gretzky's WHA season in this??

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Old
07-31-2012, 12:55 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Why are you including Gretzky's WHA season in this??
That was a mistake, but 43 goals in the WHA compared to 53 in the NHL is favorable to Bossy isn't it? Assuming WHA didn't have the same standard of goaltending, shouldn't Gretzky have been scoring more that year? Ever see those inflated OHL/AHL stats of today?

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Old
07-31-2012, 01:02 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
That was a mistake, but 43 goals in the WHA compared to 53 in the NHL is favorable to Bossy isn't it? Assuming WHA didn't have the same standard of goaltending, shouldn't Gretzky have been scoring more that year? Ever see those inflated OHL/AHL stats of today?
Gretzky was 17 years old at the beginning of his WHA season playing against men.


Gretzky and Bossy's NHL careers overlapped from 80-81 to 86-87.

Most goals 80-81 to 86-87:

1. Gretzky 492
2. Bossy 400
3. Kurri 354
4. Goulet 344
5. Dionne 313

Most GPG 80-81 to 86-87

1. Gretzky 0.89
2. Bossy 0.76
3. Kurri 0.68
4. Lemieux 0.67 (only 2 seasons of the time frame)
5. Goulet 0.65

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Old
07-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #155
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Old
07-31-2012, 03:31 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gretzky and Bossy's NHL careers overlapped from 80-81 to 86-87.

Most goals 80-81 to 86-87:

1. Gretzky 492
2. Bossy 400
3. Kurri 354
4. Goulet 344
5. Dionne 313

Most GPG 80-81 to 86-87

1. Gretzky 0.89
2. Bossy 0.76
3. Kurri 0.68
4. Lemieux 0.67 (only 2 seasons of the time frame)
5. Goulet 0.65
I still say based on these stats that Bossy is underrated today. I think its because his career was so short.

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Old
07-31-2012, 08:28 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
I still say based on these stats that Bossy is underrated today. I think its because his career was so short.
From my own perspective I wonder if one of the reasons that Bossy is underrated, which I do think he is, is b/c ppull who never actually watched him play and thus don't appreciate that he played a complete game, just look at his #s and assume he was one dimensional. (Funny enuff probably the same ppull who look at a P.Bure and think he was some kind of stud player when he was as one dimensional as it gets.)

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07-31-2012, 10:41 PM
  #158
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On the HF boards it's Fedorov.

People instantly drop to their knees at the mention of Forsberg but the reality is Fedorov was a superior hockey player.

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Old
07-31-2012, 10:49 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by TheAngryHank View Post
On the HF boards it's Fedorov.

People instantly drop to their knees at the mention of Forsberg but the reality is Fedorov was a superior hockey player.
Really? This debate? Fedorov may have had a better career but when Forsberg was at his peak he was almost as dominant as Lemieux.

A lot of people have thrown out Bossy, but I think Denis Potvin and Butch Goring are severely underrated. It's not like teams stumble onto 5 consecutive cups even in the 80s.

Borje Salming and Stan Mikita come to mind, too.

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Old
07-31-2012, 10:53 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by hedgeduck View Post
Really? This debate? Fedorov may have had a better career but when Forsberg was at his peak he was almost as dominant as Lemieux.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Lemieux is on another planet compared to Forsberg. I'm saying that as one for the biggest Forsberg fans around. I do however agree that Forsberg was better than Fedorov.

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07-31-2012, 10:58 PM
  #161
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Old
08-01-2012, 12:23 AM
  #162
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Old
08-01-2012, 12:40 AM
  #163
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ron francis-great player. did everything. i know it was said alot
mike gartner- i dont think many people realize how many goals he has
mike keane- i know he wasnt the most skilled player on the ice every night but what he meant to the team could not be underestimated. he has what 6 cups

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Old
08-01-2012, 01:44 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
GPG 0.83 0.79

If you watched a random game during these years, you'd have an 83% chance of seeing Gretzky score a goal and a 79% chance of seeing Bossy score.
That is false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Yesterday they replayed the final game on NHLnetwork of the 1982 Stanley Cup finals, Islanders vs. Canucks and Bossy ironically did have a goal in that game. He scored off a rebound of a Potvin shot. Anyways, the announcer was talking and said (paraphrasing): "In my opinion, Mike Bossy could be the best goal scorer ever... people might say Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, or Rocket Richard but Bossy can score in so many different ways" or something like that. But I do think the announcers were highly biased towards the Islanders.

Lead the NHL playoffs in goals 3 straight years while winning the Cup those years. Gretzky only score 17 or more goals 1 time in the playoffs when he scored 17 goals in 1985-86. Certainly he was a better playmaker and racked up way more assists but if we are talking about straight goal scoring I think they are comparable. Career wise in the playoffs, Mike Bossy scored .659 goals per game, while Gretzky scored .587 goal per game pace.
Considering Gretzky scored 92 during that season, it does seem like a strange thing to say. BTW, Gretzky scored .684 gpg in his first 10 playoffs. This is similar to a common misuse of playoff stats that often happens with Messier. You can't fairly compare a full career with a shortened career (or in Messier's case, no playoffs past his prime). The scoring level of each era should also be taken into account, in which case Bossy's numbers don't seem quite so staggering. It also should be considered that Gretzky wasn't focusing mostly on goal-scoring, while Bossy was. Bossy may have been one of the 10 best goals scorers, but behind Lemieux, Gretzky, Bobby Hull, etc.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:14 AM
  #165
tazzy19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
That was a mistake, but 43 goals in the WHA compared to 53 in the NHL is favorable to Bossy isn't it? Assuming WHA didn't have the same standard of goaltending, shouldn't Gretzky have been scoring more that year? Ever see those inflated OHL/AHL stats of today?
You know that Gretzky was 17 years old at the time (in the WHL), right? The fact that he turned professional at 17, and still managed to score 43 goals is a testament to how good he was, not the other way around.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:20 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gretzky was 17 years old at the beginning of his WHA season playing against men.


Gretzky and Bossy's NHL careers overlapped from 80-81 to 86-87.

Most goals 80-81 to 86-87:

1. Gretzky 492
2. Bossy 400
3. Kurri 354
4. Goulet 344
5. Dionne 313

Most GPG 80-81 to 86-87

1. Gretzky 0.89
2. Bossy 0.76
3. Kurri 0.68
4. Lemieux 0.67 (only 2 seasons of the time frame)
5. Goulet 0.65
Not to nitpick, but Gretzky and Bossy's NHL careers actually overlapped from 79-80, not 80-81. Either way, Gretzky still wins.

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Old
08-01-2012, 03:46 AM
  #167
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08-01-2012, 05:09 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by hedgeduck View Post
Really? This debate? Fedorov may have had a better career but when Forsberg was at his peak he was almost as dominant as Lemieux.
What? , much closer to Claude than Mario. This is what im talking about when i say Forsberg is horrendously overrated. Fedorovs peak was Selke and Hart at the same year. He was just as good as Forsberg if not better at his best.

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Old
08-01-2012, 05:33 AM
  #169
ChuckW
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
That is false.
I'm no statastician, but if you have a 0.83 GPG, doesn't that mean an 83% chance of scoring in any randomly picked game?


Last edited by ChuckW: 08-01-2012 at 05:39 AM.
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Old
08-01-2012, 06:30 AM
  #170
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Joe Mullen needs to be remembered as the superstar that he was, and for some reason I rarely hear his name. The guy was a big part of 3 stanley cups, and was an absolute WIZARD with the puck during his heyday. He and Gilmour on the same line in Calgary was one of the scariest lines to play against in the late 1980s. Grit, amazing talent, and never-say-die attitude.

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:23 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
I'm no statastician, but if you have a 0.83 GPG, doesn't that mean an 83% chance of scoring in any randomly picked game?
Roughly. It doesn't offer a plus-minus ratio that takes into consideration his multiple multi-point games.

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08-01-2012, 12:39 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IComeInPeace View Post
I recall reading a quote from Gretzky way back when, refrring to Kent Nilsson as the most talented player in the league (I think it was before Lemieux came into the league)...

I also believe I heard someone in the media say you couldmline up 20 pucks at the blueline, and Kent could put all 20 in off of the post, he was that skilled.

However, if you look at his numbers in the regular season, and compare them to his playoff stats, you see a guy that seems to have been the prototype for the playoff choker. Year after year he failed to get it done in the playoffs. He finished his career with 11 playoff goals.

While in his prime, the Flames traded him for essentially a 2nd round draft pick despite being fresh off of a 99 point season, they couldnt even find anyone to offer up a decent player and/ or 1st rounder for him.
He goes to the North Stars, and despite being a point per game player in each of his 2 seasons, they peddle him to the Oilers for futures (which turns out to only be cash).
After 1 season, and a Cup with the Oilers, they too let him walk.

Super talented but for all intents and purposes, his season ended after game 80.

I think the best evaluator of his worth was what his GM's thought of him, as well as what rival GMs were willing to give up for him, even when he was at his best.
Didn't Messier threaten Nilsson's life in the locker room at one point in time? I thought I remember a story where MM really got on Nilsson for not stepping it up come play-off time.

I would also say that Gretzky threw around the "most talented player" monicker pretty easily. I think he said it about a young Swedish forward on the Rangers at one point in time, and I can't remember his name.

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:45 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
When I saw this thread title, the very first name that popped into my mind was Mike Bossy. From a "homer" perspective, I'll also say Neal Broten. He's an idol here in Minnesota, but I don't think he gets enough credit from hockey fans across the spectrum.
First name I thought of.

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:57 PM
  #174
King Forsberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
I'm no statastician, but if you have a 0.83 GPG, doesn't that mean an 83% chance of scoring in any randomly picked game?
It means on average you'll see him score 0.83 goals every game.

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08-01-2012, 01:14 PM
  #175
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
It means on average you'll see him score 0.83 goals every game.
Yes, this is what it means.

Think about points per game. If PPG > 1, how can you have > 100% chance of seeing a player record a point in a game?

For instance, Ovechkin had 65 goals in 82 games in 2008 or 0.79 gpg. However, he scored goals in 47 of those games, which is a frequency of 0.57, so one had a 57% chance of seeing him score at least one goal in a single game.

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