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Old
08-01-2012, 10:02 AM
  #51
NYVanfan
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if Hartnell were locked up long term at a nice cap hit, and they could swing the Luongo deal to bring back a top 4 d (a la Kulikov) it might make sense ...
but given theyre both ufas to be, edler has more value, i think

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Old
08-01-2012, 10:10 AM
  #52
Sasso09
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but I completely disagree.
A big, physical, smooth skating, 40-50 point d-man who is pretty good defensively is a #2 d-man? Wow, you have pretty high standards.

And even if you consider Edler to be a high end #2, he's still much more valuable than a 30 year old 2nd liner.

If Philly wants Kesler + Edler, it would cost Couturier + Hartnell + Schenn + Meszaros. (and maybe even more)
Kesler = Schenn + Hartnell
Edler = Couturier + Meszaros


(and I know it means nothing since a few picks were shockingly bad, but HF recently voted Edler as the 12th best d-man, 11th if you ignore Lidstrom due to retirement)

LOL, hilarious. Nothing more to say about that.


Couturier, schenn, hartnell and Meszaros >>> Edler and Kesler.
Schenn + Hartnell >> Kesler ( serious injury questions with shoulder)
Edler >= Couturier value wise IMO, when adding Meszaros it's <

Again, hartnell was 6th in the league in goals, he's a 1st liner, you're over valuing Edler and severely under valuing Hartnell. I believe Edler has slightly more value but it's close.

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Old
08-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #53
Winroba
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no thanks

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Old
08-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #54
Sasso09
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
Then I guess that makes Burrows a 1st liner. And Malkin a 2nd liner. And the list goes on...
Jonathan Cheechoo was once considered to be a 1st liner too.

If Hartnell can keep it up, then yes, he will be considered a 1st liner. But since it was only his 2nd time breaking 50 points in 11 years, he still has 2nd line status.
Again, Hartnell is a better player than burrows, comfortably, make a poll and find out.

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Old
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
  #55
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Disagree. If he's better it's not by much. And the last 5 seasons burrows player with the sedins how many years? Hartnell has just one year with an elite player.

Ill create a separate thread for this so we can stop Hi-Jacking the thread
He still played with two very good centers (at the time) in Richards and Carter.

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:01 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DropIt View Post
I feel the hole Edler leaves isn't worth the one Hartnell fills for Vancouver
Just wondering......how does it feel to have hole filled by them?

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:09 AM
  #57
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I'm sorry, that's purely awful in all regards. We'd be filling a hole, but creating a much larger hole with the loss of our #1D. Even if you ignore that, why would we trade a young top 15 defender on the rise for a forward who wouldn't crack most people's top 50 list?

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:36 AM
  #58
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37 goals isn't a first line player these days?

Well shoot.

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:40 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
37 goals isn't a first line player these days?

Well shoot.
A lot of people don't consider Burrows to be a 1st liner, and he did basically the exact same thing a couple of years ago.

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:44 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
A lot of people don't consider Burrows to be a 1st liner, and he did basically the exact same thing a couple of years ago.
I wouldn't say the "same thing". He was a fantastic complimentary player to the Sedins. Hartnell actually was part of the duo with Giroux that made that line with whoever was the third guy. I don't think it's unwarranted to give him more credit for that.

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Old
08-01-2012, 11:50 AM
  #61
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I think it is a good deal in terms of value though maybe the Flyers would add a 2nd or somethin, but I'd be afraid to give up Hartnell as the team isn't super strong on the wings particularly the left side now that JVR is gone.

As someone pointed out the Flyers defense isn't really that bad. It isn't great but if everyone is healthy and Timonen is given less minutes just because he can't handle 22 a game anymore they should be solid.

Coburn- Meszaros/Schenn
Timonen- Schenn/Meszaros
Grossman- Gervais/Lilija/Gustafsson/Bourdon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
I wouldn't say the "same thing". He was a fantastic complimentary player to the Sedins. Hartnell actually was part of the duo with Giroux that made that line with whoever was the third guy. I don't think it's unwarranted to give him more credit for that.
Hartnell has actually been part of 3 of the Flyers' better lines over the past few years.

Hartnell-Carter-Lupul
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #62
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From a Flyers fan's perspective, where do I sign?

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:17 PM
  #63
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I like Hartnell, have since his Nashville days, but there's no way I'd move Edler for him. Edler is the Canucks' best all-around defenseman and they need him going forward more than they need a Hartnell.

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
It was never a nice thread, well except for Flyers fans because they would get a #1 d-man for a 2nd liner.

The Canucks would never trade Edler for such an underpayment.
Hell, I don't even get why some Canucks fans want to trade him, since it would leave a big hole on defense (since he is so valuable).
hartsy is a second liner?? you are aware he scored more goals than anyone on your roster last year right?? the thread was started by simply stating the fact that you guys have a solid enough defense that you could take a loss of a d man to bolster your toughness from forwards by getting a gritty guy like hartsy who can play both ways and bury the puck

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Old
08-01-2012, 12:46 PM
  #65
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Value wise I think Edler is a bit higher than Hartnell but it is close. I'm a huge Hartnell fan

For those bickering about how good the Canucks D is. I would say they are top 5 offensively, they put up a lot of points for sure.

Defensively and in their own zone the Canucks D is definitely below average. The only reason this isn't more evident is because of the Canucks goaltending. Luongo and Schneider make them look much better than they are.

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Old
08-01-2012, 01:10 PM
  #66
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Vancouver has eighteen trillion fans. They could vote Ville Leino into the top ten in forwards polls if they felt like it.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
Maybe your reading comprehension needs some help, I said ONE of the reasons. I know scoring was also a problem, but you're in denial if you think your D core was set to take on the West in the playoffs (Edler had a bad playoff series, Bieksa was very average to poor, Hamhuis was a non-factor). Why else were people so open to the idea of getting Garrison in the first place?
so does that mean all teams that got knocked out in the first round have sub par d?

Vancouver has an excellent d core and I think one of the better ones in the NHL at that. Subtracting Edler is a no go but even without them they are average at worst.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:42 PM
  #68
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No Canucks fans should be open to trading Edler unless its for an upgrade on D

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #69
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Chalk me up as a Vancouver fan that loves Hartnell and wants him on our team

I wouldn't trade Edler for him right now but it's plausible at the trade deadline. Canucks might (I use that word very cautiously) have some D prospects finally showing something this season and Kassian may disappoint as he's the only player we have that might become Hartnell-esque. player values can change so quickly though so who knows if it's feasible at that point

After the playoffs first ended I really wanted to see Luongo go to Philly for Hartnell and Bryz go to Columbus or Tampa Bay before they made their moves earlier this summer. It was obviously a pipe dream but at the time it seemed possible though not really any more. Hartnell is exactly what the Canucks will want for Luongo a player that can help now and beefs up the top 6.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #70
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I wouldn't say the "same thing". He was a fantastic complimentary player to the Sedins. Hartnell actually was part of the duo with Giroux that made that line with whoever was the third guy. I don't think it's unwarranted to give him more credit for that.
I don't get this logic. So because Burrows is the 3rd piece to a great line he isn't as valuable? The Sedins are not the same without Burrows on that line, he gives it an entirely different dynamic. It's no coincidence that the Sedin line became one of the best lines in hockey when Burrows was placed there, despite what many may think.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #71
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I dont feel hartnell Has the same value as edler.

IMO hartnell and burrows share similar value. Both play with elite talent that pads there offensive numbers. Hartnell has the toughness factor where burrows is a killer PKer and clutch in so's.

Losing a top 15 D man for a gritty top 6 is not worth it. Much rather sign edler and look for a hartnell type via FA. looking @ this years contracts i think the Dman are much more expensive to find via FA.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
I don't know about calling Hartnell a 1st liner. He has only had 50+ points twice in his career, and he's 30 years old.
Flyers fans wanted Hartnell as far away from the team as possible last season before he started playing with Giroux.

I've seen the Flyers play quite a bit, and in my opinion Edler holds much more value. Philly would have to add B. Schenn or Couturier. Yep, dead serious.
But even then, that trade makes no sense for the Canucks, since it leaves us with a pretty big gap on defense.
Hartnell was 9th in LW for scoring...how is that not a 1st liner???

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Old
08-01-2012, 03:00 PM
  #73
Nuckles
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Hartnell was 9th in LW for scoring...how is that not a 1st liner???
That Jonathan Cheechoo guy once got 56 goals in a season.

If Hartnell can produce those stats again next season, then I'll consider him to be a 1st liner. He needs to prove it wasn't a fluke.

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Old
08-01-2012, 03:16 PM
  #74
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Philly desperately needs to address the defensive core of this team. Edler will replace a much needed high end d-man who can QB a PP and log 22-24min.
This is really being overblown. Anyone who thinks:

Grossmann - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Meszaros - Gervais
Lilja/Gustafsson/Bourdon/Manning/Lauridsen

is a horrible defense is wrong. Is it championship caliber? Questionable. Did the Devils and Kings have a championship caliber defense on paper? The Devils did not, the Kings you could make an argument either way...both played great systems. Flyers need a commitment and execution by their defenders more than they actually need more defenders...

Flyers made a Stanley Cup run with:

Timonen - Coburn
Carle - Pronger
Parent - Krajicek

even w/o Pronger, I'd take our 2012 defense over our 2010 defense.

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Old
08-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #75
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Way to conveniently gloss over that I said there are other problems on top of crappy defensive play. But sure, live in your own denial then...because that defense is totally Stanley Cup/Norris worthy.
yeah because a collective defense has anything to do with an individual award. just shut up, you're wrong seriously.

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