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PK and the Habs: far from a deal

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Old
08-01-2012, 04:31 PM
  #76
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Beaulieu's progression over his 19 year old season is nothing like Subban's. He'll have to have a huge year to catch up to PK's development.
What do you mean? Overall, yeah, Subban's progression took huge leaps forward from the point he was drafted to his first year in the AHL, but it's not like Beaulieu regressed any either and let's not forget he was way more highly touted than Subban in his draft year, I think he has the better tools imho but Subban's drive and intangibles make him unique. Beaulieu is more a Pietrangelo type, not as flashy but highly effective.

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08-01-2012, 04:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
What do you mean? Overall, yeah, Subban's progression took huge leaps forward from the point he was drafted to his first year in the AHL, but it's not like Beaulieu regressed any either and let's not forget he was way more highly touted than Subban in his draft year, I think he has the better tools imho but Subban's drive and intangibles make him unique. Beaulieu is more a Pietrangelo type, not as flashy but highly effective.
I'm not putting down Beaulieu, he's doing fine. I just don't expect him to get to Subban's level. PK's progression from 17 to 22 was just ridiculous, every year. I don't think many fans realize how hard it is to acquire a player like him.

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08-01-2012, 04:45 PM
  #78
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2 years is a perfecrt length IMO.. Aout 3 -3.5M per year and an extension could be worked out next summer on a long term deal..

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08-01-2012, 04:47 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I'm not putting down Beaulieu, he's doing fine. I just don't expect him to get to Subban's level. PK's progression from 17 to 22 was just ridiculous, every year. I don't think many fans realize how hard it is to acquire a player like him.
I agree with you on all points, and I wasn't saying you were putting down Beaulieu but merely mentioning that if anyone has the chance to become the next Subban it's him.

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08-01-2012, 04:48 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Give him a 6 year deal just like Price and Gorges both got, the guy is only 23 and has been playing top pairing minutes in the toughest hockey market in the league..
Price had a 2 year deal before signing his 6 year deal. P.K. needs to do the same. After 2 years he'll still be RFA so that's why the habs don't want to sign him longer. Smart move by Bergevin. Hopefully P.K. signs the 2 year then signs long term for more money after just like Price.

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08-01-2012, 05:04 PM
  #81
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i doubt the reason behind not burying gomez is financial.
Yeah especially considering that he still has to pay him even if he's in the minors...

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08-01-2012, 05:06 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
just give him same deal that Letang got after his ELC:

4 years at 3.5mil.

DONE.
That would be perfect

Then negociate an extension during the last year of his contract if all is well.

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08-01-2012, 05:13 PM
  #83
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what if subban has an offensive explosion like karlsson? we're going to have to offer him doughty or karlsson money way before his ufa years. take advantage of a year where he was just decent offensively and lock him longterm (which is what he wants) to something that will in the end be MUCH cheaper then giving him multiple short term contracts.
And what if he doesnt ? Id rather pay the guy what hes worth, then hes happy and we are happy to have him. I dont want to be way overpaying a guy for a whole lot of years.

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08-01-2012, 05:26 PM
  #84
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I'd give him a 12 year contract with around a 4.5~5m cap hit, but I guess the Habs organization doesn't like to give out long-term contracts like that.

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08-01-2012, 05:27 PM
  #85
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Seems to me if it's not true like PK's agent has claimed, then Lavoie is starting to spew as much BS as Eklund.

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08-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
And what if he doesnt ? Id rather pay the guy what hes worth, then hes happy and we are happy to have him. I dont want to be way overpaying a guy for a whole lot of years.
That's true.

But similarly, he doesn't want to be underpaid.

2.75 million per year is insulting, if true.

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08-01-2012, 06:14 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I'm not putting down Beaulieu, he's doing fine. I just don't expect him to get to Subban's level. PK's progression from 17 to 22 was just ridiculous, every year. I don't think many fans realize how hard it is to acquire a player like him.
Hmm... Subban's progression really took off from 20-22. Most of our fan base had more faith in Weber at the time, because he was looking more well rounded and better positionally than Subban in the OHL. Once Subban got a taste of the big leagues, he started progressing very quickly.

Edit: all this to say...at the same age, Beaulieu is nearly identical to Subban. Same deficiencies, same potential, same arrogance.

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08-01-2012, 06:27 PM
  #88
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2 things are true:

1) Habs will sign Subban
2) once the Habs have signed Subban most people in this thread will realize how many breaths they wasted fretting over other peoples money .

I am intrigued by bergevins early habits . Cool on July 1 When there are few improvement options, cool in negotiations with players who don't have options . I might like this guy.

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08-01-2012, 06:33 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Edit: all this to say...at the same age, Beaulieu is nearly identical to Subban. Same deficiencies, same potential, same arrogance.
Pat Quinn would disagree with that... As would anyone who follows the WJ's closely.

Subban had similar traits, sure, but he also had something that propelled him into a much bigger role than the one beaulieu -whose draft status suggests a greater talent base than PK at the same age- was given.

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08-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
2 things are true:

1) Habs will sign Subban
2) once the Habs have signed Subban most people in this thread will realize how many breaths they wasted fretting over other peoples money .

I am intrigued by bergevins early habits . Cool on July 1 When there are few improvement options, cool in negotiations with players who don't have options . I might like this guy.
Subban doesn't have options?

By all means, let this drag out and see if he gets tendered an offer by the beginning of the season. He will.

I applaud Bergevin's poker face, but at the same time he needs to be cautious here because we have nothing to replace Subban with in the immediate future. The likely event of an offer sheet would not provide the Habs with the compensation that Subban is worth to this hockey club at present time. We either match and likely "overpay" for his services in the short-term, or we decline and get an insult of a return for him. Unless of course we are talking about a "Weber four 1sts" type return, but I'd venture to say the most Subban would get sheeted for would be in the 4-5.5M cap hit area with a return of a 1st and 2nd (up to 4.7M) or a 1st, 2nd, 3rd for anything up to 6.2M.

Defenseman who can log 25 minutes a game, plus player on 28th ranked team, elite penalty killer and put up 40ish points. Not worth that return, not unless once of those picks turns out to be a Superstar.

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08-01-2012, 06:53 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Subban doesn't have options?

By all means, let this drag out and see if he gets tendered an offer by the beginning of the season. He will.

I applaud Bergevin's poker face, but at the same time he needs to be cautious here because we have nothing to replace Subban with in the immediate future. The likely event of an offer sheet would not provide the Habs with the compensation that Subban is worth to this hockey club at present time. We either match and likely "overpay" for his services in the short-term, or we decline and get an insult of a return for him. Unless of course we are talking about a "Weber four 1sts" type return, but I'd venture to say the most Subban would get sheeted for would be in the 4-5.5M cap hit area with a return of a 1st and 2nd (up to 4.7M) or a 1st, 2nd, 3rd for anything up to 6.2M.

Defenseman who can log 25 minutes a game, plus player on 28th ranked team, elite penalty killer and put up 40ish points. Not worth that return, not unless once of those picks turns out to be a Superstar.
No one is going to offer sheet Subban. Philly tried and failed, are they going to look like morons a second time? No one else has the balls to do so. Subban is safe.

The only downfall from Bergevin's tactics (if this is even true) is that it will leave a sour flavour to these negotiations that might come back in the future.

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08-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
2 things are true:

1) Habs will sign Subban
2) once the Habs have signed Subban most people in this thread will realize how many breaths they wasted fretting over other peoples money .

I am intrigued by bergevins early habits . Cool on July 1 When there are few improvement options, cool in negotiations with players who don't have options . I might like this guy.
A lot of these guys pay a lot of money to watch these guys play. And then more money for things like merchandise supporting the team.

That makes management and by extension the players accountable to the public, in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is the case, but if Subban thinks he's entitled, if he thinks he can twist management's arm for a longer contract than he's earned (one good year and one Hum Ha year) then he can go play somewhere else for all I care.

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08-01-2012, 07:00 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
And what if he doesnt ? Id rather pay the guy what hes worth, then hes happy and we are happy to have him. I dont want to be way overpaying a guy for a whole lot of years.
If he doesn't, he will still most likely be worth close to 5 or 5.5.
But I think it's more likely that 5.5 will seem a bargain in two years.
Most importantly, if we sign him for only two years,and after he
reaches his potential we get out bid and lose him, that would be
a major disaster.
And please remember that there will be a new CBA. It may make
offer sheets easier and more common.
We could be in the horrible position of having offer sheets coming to
MaxPac, Eller, Lablanc, and Subban within two summers.

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08-01-2012, 07:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Subban doesn't have options?

By all means, let this drag out and see if he gets tendered an offer by the beginning of the season. He will.

I applaud Bergevin's poker face, but at the same time he needs to be cautious here because we have nothing to replace Subban with in the immediate future. The likely event of an offer sheet would not provide the Habs with the compensation that Subban is worth to this hockey club at present time. We either match and likely "overpay" for his services in the short-term, or we decline and get an insult of a return for him. Unless of course we are talking about a "Weber four 1sts" type return, but I'd venture to say the most Subban would get sheeted for would be in the 4-5.5M cap hit area with a return of a 1st and 2nd (up to 4.7M) or a 1st, 2nd, 3rd for anything up to 6.2M.

Defenseman who can log 25 minutes a game, plus player on 28th ranked team, elite penalty killer and put up 40ish points. Not worth that return, not unless once of those picks turns out to be a Superstar.
Sorry what options are there again for Subban?

Oh yeah, negotiate with Montreal and play for Montreal or negotiate with one of 29 other teams and play for Montreal.

Might make for slightly longer negotiations but all parties know the options. A deal will be done and fwiw its irrelevant if this rumour is true or false .

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08-01-2012, 07:20 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
No one is going to offer sheet Subban. Philly tried and failed, are they going to look like morons a second time? No one else has the balls to do so. Subban is safe.

The only downfall from Bergevin's tactics (if this is even true) is that it will leave a sour flavour to these negotiations that might come back in the future.

When the new shiny contract comes out in 3 years that allows Subban to go from a Lexus to a Bentley I think the flavor will be rinsed .

I agree Subban is safe. Philly was bidding on a 27 yo Norris defenseman against a team that appeared vulnerable financially and a player that rumored to want out. Subban comes from hab fan heritage and belongs to a team that could flick an overpaying offer sheet off like a dry booger.

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Old
08-01-2012, 07:24 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Andros777 View Post
A lot of these guys pay a lot of money to watch these guys play. And then more money for things like merchandise supporting the team.

That makes management and by extension the players accountable to the public, in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is the case, but if Subban thinks he's entitled, if he thinks he can twist management's arm for a longer contract than he's earned (one good year and one Hum Ha year) then he can go play somewhere else for all I care.
You really think this past year was a "hum ha" year?

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08-01-2012, 07:26 PM
  #97
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His raise will be based on what is anticipated from him, not on what he's already accomplished. I wouldn't want to pay $4M+ as a reward for what Subban has produced, which has been good but not on all-star level.
4+M isn't all star level. Coming off ELCs, Letang got 13M/4years. Vlasic got 12.4M/4years. Add in inflation and 4+M isn't really that high. 4M for a tough minute playing D is more than fair. Gorges got 3.9M and Subban plays similar tough D minutes and contributes on offense. What I think is key though is avoiding giving him 4/5 years as that'll bring him to UFA like the Letang and Vlasic.

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08-01-2012, 07:38 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
You really think this past year was a "hum ha" year?
Yes? Thirty six points is nothing to write home about. Particularly with the ice time he got. Definitely not enough to justify him getting more than what Price got, or what Pacioretty got. Look at what Gorges took on his second contract.

If those guys can accept those contracts, Subban can take two years at five million and he should be very very happy.

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08-01-2012, 08:09 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
just give him same deal that Letang got after his ELC:

4 years at 3.5mil.

DONE.
Yeah... And risk loosing him as an UFA at 27. That was dumb, dumb deal for Pittsburgh.

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Old
08-01-2012, 08:14 PM
  #100
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sign Subban already! He needs to focus on hockey only. 4 years at 3.5mil and call it a day. He is are best D-Man

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