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Fisher: Russians pull power play to participate in Olympics
I must have missed this back when I was posting in this thread.
That's absolutely not the reason. When baseball/softball were removed, 2 more sports were added to replace them. Plus, there's other sports in the Olympics that most of the world doesn't care about but are in. Handball and Water Polo two good examples.
MLB players would have absolutely saved Baseball at the Olympics.
MLB's final offer to the IOC was stopping the league for 1 week but not for the whole 2 weeks. They also offered to have no MLB games played during the Gold Medal game. That wasn't good enough for the IOC.
MLB's final offer to the IOC was stopping the league for 1 week but not for the whole 2 weeks. They also offered to have no MLB games played during the Gold Medal game. That wasn't good enough for the IOC.
It really isn't good enough, you can't have some athletes arriving after the Opening Ceremonies. It wouldn't have been a big deal to start spring training in Feburary for one year and give them two weeks off. But then again MLB isn't as committed to building the sport internationally as they should be.
Except I fet the feeling the NHL/KHL,Europe relationship is more hostile then the friendly MLB/NPB relationship.
I don't think it's hostile, it's just business. Everybody's interests are laid out on the table and you constantly see Bettman and Medvedev talking.
-NHL doesn't like season interruption, lots of owners and fans don't care for it. Willing to go along if it's shown to be long term net benefit for hockey, which is debatable. NHL waants to squeeze more money out of IOC as compensation.
-NHLPA likes the olympics. Vancouver was great. Have a feeling player opinions might change tho with next 2 olympics being 12 hour flights to small resort towns, instead of nice NHL franchise city like vancouver. Still it's currently a CBA point.
-2014 super important to Russia. Putin regime's prestige is tied to it. They will play hardball to get it, including threats of Russian player walkout. After that I doubt Russians really care anymore about post-2014, but they won't admit it cuz it would look hypocritical.
I think in the end, all parties could agree to a world cup after 2014. The best reason to agree? MONEY. The hockey tournanament is a big ticket event, why are all the revenues going to IOC when they could go to hockey leagues instead?
I don't think it's hostile, it's just business. Everybody's interests are laid out on the table and you constantly see Bettman and Medvedev talking.
-NHL doesn't like season interruption, lots of owners and fans don't care for it. Willing to go along if it's shown to be long term net benefit for hockey, which is debatable. NHL waants to squeeze more money out of IOC as compensation.
-NHLPA likes the olympics. Vancouver was great. Have a feeling player opinions might change tho with next 2 olympics being 12 hour flights to small resort towns, instead of nice NHL franchise city like vancouver. Still it's currently a CBA point.
-2014 super important to Russia. Putin regime's prestige is tied to it. They will play hardball to get it, including threats of Russian player walkout. After that I doubt Russians really care anymore about post-2014, but they won't admit it cuz it would look hypocritical.
I think in the end, all parties could agree to a world cup after 2014. The best reason to agree? MONEY. The hockey tournanament is a big ticket event, why are all the revenues going to IOC when they could go to hockey leagues instead?
I have a general question/thought related to many sports in the bolded part. In the Olympics, do governing bodies of the sports see any of the IOC money? Like does IIHC or FIBA see money from the Olympics? Or do they rely on their WHC/FIBA WC/etc. for funds?
That question leads to my other thought, what sport in the world actually has 3 top level events with the same end result? Bringing back a Hockey World Cup while the NHL still went to the Olympics would seem like overkill of hockey events. While baseball would like to be in the Olympics, it will stick with the 4 year WBC and Premier12 that Japan is hoping to host every 4 years inbetween. Basketball also has the Olympics and then WC.
I don't see the NHL having the power to disband the current WHC format, so its either they go with their NHL-centric World Cup or stick with the Olympics because I feel there's no room for 3 events. I personally won't like a World Cup of Hockey until all parties have a stake in it like the WBC.
I personally would rather the Olympic route, but would like to see the NHL/KHL/etc. get a cut out of it. The question is what % of the Olympic money should they receive because its really only 3-4 teams that are predominately NHL filled?
Last edited by cutchemist42: 08-01-2012 at 01:56 PM.
I can't imagine NBC being very happy with the NHL if NHLers aren't in the Olympics. Hockey is a huge draw for NBC, and while it would still be watched in America, due simply to nationalistic pride (just like people watching water polo this year, or any sport that isn't watched typically), the ratings would be much lower. The Olympics therefore should want NHLers.
In my opinion, the NHL should want NHLers to go to the Olympics. I honestly haven't looked at the numbers, but my empirical evidence would lead me to believe that the NHL benefited from the 2010 Olympics, as many people here, in St. Louis, a market without recent success (only two playoff appearances since the lockout), started watching hockey after the Olympics, and Blues fever has caught on.
Hockey is in a unique position to benefit from the Olympics in terms of the other big 4 sports. Two aren't in the Olympics, and don't have a real international tournament that is followed. The other, basketball, isn't nearly as interesting because there isn't as much of an international threat. Here, interestingly, is a case where America sending amateurs would be much more interesting. Or at least a U-23 team. That would benefit the NBA more. Of course, the NBA and the NFL have popular college leagues, and the NFL doesn't have to worry about popularity anyways. If I were the NBA, I'd try to use March Madness as a boost, including a combined marketing scheme with the NCAA (a story for a different time), as well as encouraging the United States to send a U-23 team to make the Olympics more interesting. I digress. The NHL should get from the Olympics the ability to use Olympic footage in marketing, as I think this would help both, and the Olympics rely on the NHL more than vice versa. That said, hockey is really the only sport of the big 4 that has a high profile, best against best, intriguing (ie unpredictable), international tournament, and instead of trying to limit participation, it should instead encourage it.
I have a general question/thought related to many sports in the bolded part. In the Olympics, do governing bodies of the sports see any of the IOC money? Like does IIHC or FIBA see money from the Olympics? Or do they rely on their WHC/FIBA WC/etc. for funds?
No, no governing body gets money. There's a report(look for it on Google) on how the money is spread but practically all of the tv money etc. goes to all the various IOCs and Olympic organizers
lol so because they did a mediocre job 8 years ago, it may never be attempted again?
I never said that they shouldn't try it again but until they actually prove they have the ability to successfully hold the event on a regular bases I think the the credibility of the idea deserves to be questioned.
The fact that they haven't cared enough to even organize the event in 8 years (and counting) and had another 8 year gab previously to the last tournament should raise some flags.
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend
They can approach it more seriously,
That would probably be a good start.
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend
and with a longer term plan in mind,
Long term plan! Great idea! They should definitely have something like that!
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend
bringing in the KHL/euro leagues to keep everyone happy, and it can work.
Sure... Are they actually willing 'to keep everyone happy' though?
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend
Look at the World Baseball Classic for a model.
Ya... It was discussed earlier in the thread. I think the general feeling is it is a decent start but still has a ways to go. At least the people/organizations that run the WCB seem to be doing, unlike the NHL/NHLPA up to this point, some of the things you suggested.
To sum things up... If a lot of different people did a lot of different things... Things could be a lot different.
Why do people want these stupid tournaments with teams that are essentially thrown together from people who are born in the same country? Why not a tournament where you throw together teams based on the first letter of their last names?
Or if you want this sort of thing, create real national teams where that's all that team does is represent the country in international competition and that's the only team that its players play for.
I see Olympic gold > Stanley Cup myself. Representing the country would be such an honour.
I don't think people realize how massive the olympics are for European countries. It is the premier event for European hockey fans and always has been. I could actually see a move to ban players from playing in the Olympics creating problems for the NHL attracting players from Europe to North America, and the KHL will make a ton of mileage on that point.
for personal entertainment reasons the best case scenario as I see it is if Alex Ovechkin breaks his contract with the Capitals and signs with a KHL team in Russia for like twice what he's making now because the league bans olympic participation as part of the new CBA.
Why do people want these stupid tournaments with teams that are essentially thrown together from people who are born in the same country? Why not a tournament where you throw together teams based on the first letter of their last names?
Or if you want this sort of thing, create real national teams where that's all that team does is represent the country in international competition and that's the only team that its players play for.
In a way it is kind of silly. Sports in general are kind of silly.
Why do we care about teams that are made up of people who are only there because they are forced to be via a draft or trade or after a certain amount of (arbitrary) years were granted the right to sell their services for the most attractive offer?
I believe it was Seinfeld who said we are basically "rooting for laundry".
Last edited by CoolForumNamePending: 08-01-2012 at 06:56 PM.
Indeed, and I think its patently unfair that the NHL and the PA dont recieve anything from the IOC when hockey is the Crown Jewel event when the pros compete. Broadcast revenues are given a boost, ratings soar, sponsorship fees bumped up subststantially.
With Rene Fasel wearing two hats as head of the IIHF & the IOC Charge de' Affaire for Hockey, you have a real conflict of interest goin down on a number of levels, able to shutdown any proposed World Cup type alternative to the Olympics as the Premier Tournament.
The NHL shutsdown for two weeks with its best players competing, teams running the risk of loss of service with pay should a player get injured. Team medical personnel are denied access and then theres the insurance issues.
Its little wonder Russians are speaking out about the potential loss of NHL participation as without it the Sochi Games would lose a lot of there lustre, theyd have to lower rates for sponsorships etc etc etc. To basically "threaten" the NHL intimating theyd better come or else the KHL is going to supercede it as the Worlds Best League isnt helpful either.
IMO if the IOC wants NHL participation then they should Pay the Piper.
No it's not. The 'Crown Jewel event' of the Winter Games is figure skating, not hockey. The IOC will be fine with or without NHL participation.
It's in hockey's interest for NHLers to compete, and the well-being of our sport should be priority #1.
Unfortunately, the NHL is looking out for its own interests above that of the game's.....but 'tis to be expected from a revenue driven entity.
Regardless, every global hockey league is on board; the IOC and IIHF are on board; the NHLPA is on board; as are the vast majority of fans.
Is 2 weeks every 4 years really too much to ask from the NHL?.....especially when the OG already provide for 1. great exposure, 2. huge concessions from the NHLPA in CBA negotiations.
I mean how much more greedy can the NHL get, especially when it's at the expense of the game?
I think in the end, all parties could agree to a world cup after 2014. The best reason to agree? MONEY. The hockey tournanament is a big ticket event, why are all the revenues going to IOC when they could go to hockey leagues instead?
A World Cup wouldn't be a 'big ticket event'.
Hockey at the olympics - huge global viewership
Hockey (by itself) - a regional sport
Without the olympics as a platform, our sport isn't popular enough for a World Cup to significantly sell itself.....especially outside of Canada.
Even with IIHF participation, I doubt it would be anymore popular than past World Cups/Canada Cups (i.e. nobody cares in USA, empty arenas in Europe).
People forget that it was Bettman who wanted the players to participate in the first place, in order to replicate his experience with the formation of the Dream Team while he worked for the NBA. I'm really amazed by how many people have bought into his brinkmanship about wanting to end player participation... there's a reason he said what he said in 2010 and not in 2006, it's all a game to make the PA think he's giving them a concession when they eventually agree to let them play in the next two.
I'm also amazed by how many people believe you can simply remove the tournament form it's context within the Olympics and in the winter while maintaining interest. People tune into watch the Olympics, not hockey. Which is why Sweden vs Finland in a gold medal event in Turin draws as many viewers as the Stanley Cup finals.
easy solution but would require arm twisting, move hockey to the summer games instead....you can get all the best players, the NHL regular season isn't interrupted & it gives people a reason to actually watch the Summer Olympics.....
FWIW, Bettman tried to sell the IOC on this multiple times... but the Olympic charter holds that any event on snow or ice is a Winter event by definition. Trust me, if it were possible it would have happened and we'd be watching a really cool competition from Earl's Court right now.
He meant the NHL should treat the Olympics as football treats the world cup--the pinnacle of the sport.
I don't believe the NHL can't see the big picture. They are mired in CBA negotiations and so we've seen the olympics become a bargaining chip.
The NHL must go to Sochi, imo.
Never happen. The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics will always be second place.
Never happen. The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics will always be second place.
The international competition will always be treated as the best event of the sport. And maybe I could agree with you about the fact that a league title is the biggest thing in sports if that league actually had a higher quality than international competition.
there's never going to be an agreement on what the pinnacle of the sport is and we should all accept that and stop arguing over it. The fact that a large number of hockey fans of any nationality feel that international competition are as or more important than club competition means that definitive statements one way or the other can never be correct. Everything else is just a personal opinion.
Never happen. The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics will always be second place.
For who? North Americans? Maybe, probably.
No European I know of would pick winning the SC over the Olympic Gold.
When Toni Kukoc was winning multiple rings with the Bulls, I was happy for him.
But it doesn't compare to winning the silver in 92 with the national team in Barcelona vs The Dream Team,
and the guys on the team said it was not even a comparison.
Europeans (not all, but most) hold winning the Olympic Gold in higher regard than winning the cup/ring/etc. in a NA pro league.
Deal with it, the world is NOT just North America.
I must have missed this back when I was posting in this thread.
That's absolutely not the reason. When baseball/softball were removed, 2 more sports were added to replace them. Plus, there's other sports in the Olympics that most of the world doesn't care about but are in. Handball and Water Polo two good examples.
MLB players would have absolutely saved Baseball at the Olympics.
Of course, the examples you use are much more competitive and widespread that baseball and softball (as long as the latter is still women only).
Rugby 7s and Golf are just gonna expand that gap further.
It would be really interesting to see how the NHL would handle its top Russian players leaving to go play in Sochi.
I think players from other countries would be inspired to do the same as well.
There is just so much to lose for the NHL. They have to go.
Funny thing is that players actually need approval from the NHL to participate. The NHL has the option of suspending a player who doesn't live up to his contract (i.e. leaves for the olympics).
Per IIHF rules, a player is ineligible for IIHF competition if suspended from their domestic league.
Never happen. The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics will always be second place.
2nd place?
The most watched TV broadcast in Canadian history the 2010 Olympic gold game. The most watched hockey game in American history is the 1980 game, followed by the 2010 gold game.
Add those stats to the fact that the Olympics is undoubtedly #1 in Europe, and I'd say the olympics is easily the pinnacle of our game.
