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This is where I stopped reading. They maybe are shouldering more responsibilities, but the result of it is a 30th and a 29th finish. So maybe, just maybe, you should write something about shouldering responsibilities when they actually do something with it.
Seguin led Bruins in goals and +/-. Do you actually think this would change if he would be given MORE responsibilities and ice time (other than playing wing on the 1st line...)
No he didn't. Bergeron did (he was a +36 and Seguin was a +34). But +/- is a completely useless stat, especially because he was playing with the Selke winner in Bergeron and Marchand, who's good defensively as well. That stat doesn't make him good defensively. He played pretty sheltered minutes last year and wasn't given defensive responsibilities either. He was relied on to score, that's about it.
The players who shouldered the majority of the defensive load this year were our veterans - Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky. They were the ones who were the #1 go-to-guys responsible for the defensive aspect. The difference I am pointing out to you is that Seguin has not been given any significant role outside scoring, while Hall has been given PP, PK and defensive zone duties along with RNH and that has nothing to do with the Oilers being a "bad team". The decision to place Hall in these situations has nothing to do with need but rather his skill set and ability.
No one is expecting Seguin to overtake the defensive roles and responsibilities of his team mates, but the glaring elephant in the room is he has been given none which leads me to believe he is a very good player, but pretty one dimensional. Boston fans would know best, but I can't help but ironically compare him to Kessel. Maybe you can tell me the differences between the two?
The players who lead are clearly laid out. Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand are the players your team relies on. I don't see Seguin being given any of these responsibilities while someone like Hall has been given much more. You can claim it to be that way because the Oilers are bad or need to etc, but that's not really canon with the individual statistics. The Oilers aren't bad because Hall has defensive responsibilities. The Oilers are bad because Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky are shouldering them and the defense is porous. Let's also not forget about the injuries to key players.
You can claim as much as you want that Seguin is gonna be the better player, but all signs points to Hall as being the more complete player overall now and in the future. It seems the only thing Seguin has over Hall at this point is playoff experience and a winning culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8th Rounder
Hall and Eberle shoulder more responsibilities on the Oilers because the Oilers were a much lesser team. Put Seguin on the Oilers and he would certainly be higher than 6th in icetime among forwards. To the extent that Hall and Eberle are given defensive responsibility and carrying the team they are not ready since the team has come in 30th and 29th and poor defensively.
In addition to scoring points it should be said that Seguin has proven he can come in second in the entire league in +/-. If I was to hope for Seguin to get a tuitorial in playing defense I wouldn't choose Eberle and Hall. Eberle is reasonbly competent defensively, Hall is a pretty one way player often vacating the zone looking for the outlet. They are all great young talents, but there is no need to try to diminish what Seguin has done either with his 'sheltered' minutes (he plays on a line with Patrice Bergeron, I didn't realize they 'sheltered' their selke winners minutes).
Let's just stop with the ridiculous +/- statistic once and for all. It does nothing but make you appear to be grasping at straws. NHL.com has a very good database of statistics if you want to bring something tangible to the table. It's a meaningless statistic.
That being said, Seguin on the Oilers would see him on the second line behind Eberle. As stated above, he couldn't be counted on for defensive responsibilities and would have his minutes sheltered into a more offensive-only role. But because Eberle is a better player overall he would not supplant him on the PP or on the top line and would likely finish with similar TOI as he did last year.
And because of your vapid scouting report of Hall I'll just conclude by stating you need to either watch more games or dig up some stats to support yourself.
Last edited by smackdaddy: 08-02-2012 at 01:31 AM.
The players who shouldered the majority of the defensive load this year were our veterans - Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky. They were the ones who were the #1 go-to-guys responsible for the defensive aspect. The difference I am pointing out to you is that Seguin has not been given any significant role outside scoring, while Hall has been given PP, PK and defensive zone duties along with RNH and that has nothing to do with the Oilers being a "bad team". The decision to place Hall in these situations has nothing to do with need but rather his skill set and ability.
No one is expecting Seguin to overtake the defensive roles and responsibilities of his team mates, but the glaring elephant in the room is he has been given none which leads me to believe he is a very good player, but pretty one dimensional. Boston fans would know best, but I can't help but ironically compare him to Kessel. Maybe you can tell me the differences between the two?
The players who lead are clearly laid out. Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand are the players your team relies on. I don't see Seguin being given any of these responsibilities while someone like Hall has been given much more. You can claim it to be that way because the Oilers are bad or need to etc, but that's not really canon with the individual statistics. The Oilers aren't bad because Hall has defensive responsibilities. The Oilers are bad because Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky are shouldering them and the defense is porous. Let's also not forget about the injuries to key players.
You can claim as much as you want that Seguin is gonna be the better player, but all signs points to Hall as being the more complete player overall now and in the future. It seems the only thing Seguin has over Hall at this point is playoff experience and a winning culture.
Let's just stop with the ridiculous +/- statistic once and for all. It does nothing but make you appear to be grasping at straws. NHL.com has a very good database of statistics if you want to bring something tangible to the table. It's a meaningless statistic.
That being said, Seguin on the Oilers would see him on the second line behind Eberle. As stated above, he couldn't be counted on for defensive responsibilities and would have his minutes sheltered into a more offensive-only role. But because Eberle is a better player overall he would not supplant him on the PP or on the top line and would likely finish with similar TOI as he did last year.
And because of your vapid scouting report of Hall I'll just conclude by stating you need to either watch more games or dig up some stats to support yourself.
Very well done.
Although I wouldn't waste the energy, their counterargument will nitpick a tiny part and ignore 95% of the rest.
No he didn't. Bergeron did (he was a +36 and Seguin was a +34). But +/- is a completely useless stat, especially because he was playing with the Selke winner in Bergeron and Marchand, who's good defensively as well. That stat doesn't make him good defensively. He played pretty sheltered minutes last year and wasn't given defensive responsibilities either. He was relied on to score, that's about it.
So what should he do? Don't play on the first line? Play on the PK over Selke winner Bergeron or a defensive monster like Kelly?
Bruins roll 3 lines. They won the cup with it. They will not change it to show the world how Seguin can shoulder more ice time and outscore the Oilers boys.
The players who shouldered the majority of the defensive load this year were our veterans - Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky. They were the ones who were the #1 go-to-guys responsible for the defensive aspect. The difference I am pointing out to you is that Seguin has not been given any significant role outside scoring, while Hall has been given PP, PK and defensive zone duties along with RNH and that has nothing to do with the Oilers being a "bad team". The decision to place Hall in these situations has nothing to do with need but rather his skill set and ability.
Do you really think ANY of the Oilers young guns would play on the PK for Boston over Bergeron and Kelly?
So what should he do? Don't play on the first line? Play on the PK over Selke winner Bergeron or a defensive monster like Kelly?
Bruins roll 3 lines. They won the cup with it. They will not change it to show the world how Seguin can shoulder more ice time and outscore the Oilers boys.
Aha, but that's not what I'm saying. You through out a completely useless stat to show that he's what, good defensively? Because +/- doesn't show me anything except that he played on a good team.
More responsibility, like playing center & playing the PK, doesn't always equal more points or better play. There's a reason that Boston hasn't traded Krejci away yet. They obviously don't believe Seguin's ready to shoulder those responsibilities.
This forum has a weird obsession with size. Size doesn't win championships.
This is a myth that has been debunked many times before.
I guess the "myth" chose to ignore the last two Stanley Cup Champions.
I'll take a team with a lower skill level, grit, size and toughness over a high skilled, smallish team with less grit EVERYDAY of the week and twice on Sundays.
Aha, but that's not what I'm saying. You through out a completely useless stat to show that he's what, good defensively? Because +/- doesn't show me anything except that he played on a good team.
More responsibility, like playing center & playing the PK, doesn't always equal more points or better play. There's a reason that Boston hasn't traded Krejci away yet. They obviously don't believe Seguin's ready to shoulder those responsibilities.
This has NOTHING to do with Seguin. Chiarelli won a championship using a depth philosophy. Trading away a 1B center to give a kid a "chance" would not be a good idea. Seguin is fine playing wing with Bergeron and Marchand.
So what should he do? Don't play on the first line? Play on the PK over Selke winner Bergeron or a defensive monster like Kelly?
Bruins roll 3 lines. They won the cup with it. They will not change it to show the world how Seguin can shoulder more ice time and outscore the Oilers boys.
I don't give a flying **** if Seguin never outscores Eberle, Hall or RNH. Let them run up a bunch of useless numbers playing in meaningless games and sitting home in late Spring. Seguin will be busy playing meaningful minutes in big games trying to win another championship.
Aha, but that's not what I'm saying. You through out a completely useless stat to show that he's what, good defensively? Because +/- doesn't show me anything except that he played on a good team.
More responsibility, like playing center & playing the PK, doesn't always equal more points or better play. There's a reason that Boston hasn't traded Krejci away yet. They obviously don't believe Seguin's ready to shoulder those responsibilities.
Maybe he doesn't play center because he is going to be converted to the wing like Kessel was, because we are set at center for years to come? Maybe he'll switch back, I don't know that and neither do you. This has nothing to do with defensive liabilities.
And once again - the fact, that he doesn't play PK in Boston says nothing about him being worse defensively than Hall or RNH. In fact, he is better. Its not his fault that the Oilers have zero depth and need Hall in every situation. It could very well derail his career because of too much workload at such young age.
Do you really think ANY of the Oilers young guns would play on the PK for Boston over Bergeron and Kelly?
Considering a PK has 4 forward slots open with 2 units, I'd say one of RNH and Hall would do very well on your 2nd PK unit, but not both.
If there was absolutely zero room for RNH or Hall to get some PK time that would indicate that team has an abundance of forwards and could very likely stunt the growth of those two and I would suspect it is happening to Seguin. Such are the negative aspects of drafting a hot prospect as a team with no room for him to grow. Eventually you will have to make the hard decision to trade your veterans to make room for him or trade him now. Quite similar to why Kessel was traded in the first place if I recall correctly.
Maybe he doesn't play center because he is going to be converted to the wing like Kessel was, because we are set at center for years to come? Maybe he'll switch back, I don't know that and neither do you. This has nothing to do with defensive liabilities.
And once again - the fact, that he doesn't play PK in Boston says nothing about him being worse defensively than Hall or RNH. In fact, he is better. Its not his fault that the Oilers have zero depth and need Hall in every situation. It could very well derail his career because of too much workload at such young age.
No, he's really not. Maybe Hall, but not RNH. RNH was actually pretty good defensively for a rookie who played on the 29th ranked team in the league.
I also didn't say that not playing the PK said something about his defense. But you haven't given one reason besides his +/- why he's some great defensive player. He's not. His defense is overrated. He's not bad for a 20 year old, but by the way some people talk about his defense is that he's playing at some Selke caliber level. He needs to learn positioning a lot better, learn how to win a face off, learn how to battle on the boards, learn how to not be out muscled so often, etc. His back checking was pretty good last year, but there's a lot more defense than that.
And LOL at the last part. If anything is going to derail Hall's career, it's going to be his own reckless play at times or some freak accident. I don't know what this has to do with Hall though, because this thread is about Eberle and Lucic. And my opinion on that is that Eberle was already a better player last year and that the Oilers would be incredibly stupid to trade him away for Milan Lucic.
Eberle > Lucic
Last edited by leafs8181*: 08-02-2012 at 02:18 AM.
Let's just stop with the ridiculous +/- statistic once and for all. It does nothing but make you appear to be grasping at straws. NHL.com has a very good database of statistics if you want to bring something tangible to the table. It's a meaningless statistic.
That being said, Seguin on the Oilers would see him on the second line behind Eberle. As stated above, he couldn't be counted on for defensive responsibilities and would have his minutes sheltered into a more offensive-only role. But because Eberle is a better player overall he would not supplant him on the PP or on the top line and would likely finish with similar TOI as he did last year.
And because of your vapid scouting report of Hall I'll just conclude by stating you need to either watch more games or dig up some stats to support yourself.[/QUOTE]
You are the one grasping at straws if you are trying to argue that Eberle and Hall have led their teams anywhere (but back to the draft lottery) and have proven themselves to be good defensively, they haven't proven that at all.
Also I'll take your 'vapid scouting report' of Seguin with the grain of salt since you don't even know what position he plays and were saying he is Boston's 3rd line center, wow a real Seguin expert you are!
The players who shouldered the majority of the defensive load this year were our veterans - Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky. They were the ones who were the #1 go-to-guys responsible for the defensive aspect. The difference I am pointing out to you is that Seguin has not been given any significant role outside scoring, while Hall has been given PP, PK and defensive zone duties along with RNH and that has nothing to do with the Oilers being a "bad team". The decision to place Hall in these situations has nothing to do with need but rather his skill set and ability.
No one is expecting Seguin to overtake the defensive roles and responsibilities of his team mates, but the glaring elephant in the room is he has been given none which leads me to believe he is a very good player, but pretty one dimensional. Boston fans would know best, but I can't help but ironically compare him to Kessel. Maybe you can tell me the differences between the two?
The players who lead are clearly laid out. Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand are the players your team relies on. I don't see Seguin being given any of these responsibilities while someone like Hall has been given much more. You can claim it to be that way because the Oilers are bad or need to etc, but that's not really canon with the individual statistics. The Oilers aren't bad because Hall has defensive responsibilities. The Oilers are bad because Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky are shouldering them and the defense is porous. Let's also not forget about the injuries to key players.
You can claim as much as you want that Seguin is gonna be the better player, but all signs points to Hall as being the more complete player overall now and in the future. It seems the only thing Seguin has over Hall at this point is playoff experience and a winning culture.
Let's just stop with the ridiculous +/- statistic once and for all. It does nothing but make you appear to be grasping at straws. NHL.com has a very good database of statistics if you want to bring something tangible to the table. It's a meaningless statistic.
That being said, Seguin on the Oilers would see him on the second line behind Eberle. As stated above, he couldn't be counted on for defensive responsibilities and would have his minutes sheltered into a more offensive-only role. But because Eberle is a better player overall he would not supplant him on the PP or on the top line and would likely finish with similar TOI as he did last year.
And because of your vapid scouting report of Hall I'll just conclude by stating you need to either watch more games or dig up some stats to support yourself.
Seguin is positionlly stronger on defense, he checks more and harder than Kessel(I am not talking about hitting), Seguin works much, much harder to get involved on the defensive side of the game, Seguin listens to his coaches and does what they say to do, he puts in the extra work to get better at the parts of the game he needs to work on.
A comparison between Kessel and Seguin in any way other than the offensive side of the game is just simply the work of someone who hasn't really seen much of these players or someone who wants to try to start an argument.
I don't care if you think everyone on the Oilers is the best player in the league, I don't see the point of putting down a player like Seguin who is an extremely hard worker and is absolutely nothing like Kessel in that way and many others.
I remember people saying Joe Thornton was a bust, Tyler Bozak is better than David Krejci, Seguin is a bust, Eberle is bust, etc, etc, etc all on hfboards.
Guys like Seguin, Hall, and Eberle have only been in the league for a couple of years, anyone judging them for what they have done so far is to put it nicely, very shortsighted. I wish I could find a video of the play from last year where Seguin checks Kessel into the boards, steals the puck and passes it away for a goal, it really showed what the difference between these 2 players is. I will search for it and post it here if I find it.
I guess the "myth" chose to ignore the last two Stanley Cup Champions.
I'll take a team with a lower skill level, grit, size and toughness over a high skilled, smallish team with less grit EVERYDAY of the week and twice on Sundays.
I think a lot of you people confuse style of play with actual physical size. Last year's Bruins squad (TSN) had 7 forwards weighing 200 or more pounds. Conversely, Montreal had 9 forwards in that range. Boston had a bigger D.
I'm no Montreal fan either, just chose them as they are routinely regarded as Smurfs. Again, I think you may be confusing style of play with actual physical size (which is what I believe the poster was stating).
I think a lot of you people confuse style of play with actual physical size. Last year's Bruins squad (TSN) had 7 forwards weighing 200 or more pounds. Conversely, Montreal had 9 forwards in that range. Boston had a bigger D.
I'm no Montreal fan either, just chose them as they are routinely regarded as Smurfs. Again, I think you may be confusing style of play with actual physical size (which is what I believe the poster was stating).
Who wins this trade, who adds to this trade, and who makes this trade?
IMO it is close with Boston still needing to add a piece.
This place is frustrating sometimes. Back to the original point I would say the original post is probably accurate. Both teams love their players for what they add to their respective teams. It is tough trade to analyze as the players are so different. That being said, in my opinion as a die hard fan of the Bruins I would trade Looch plus a little something to get Eberle. It would be like trying to compare a young Karlsson to a young Chara. Both talented but completely different.
Points per 20 minutes of the three players to erase the differences made by TOI and GP the most recent season.
Seguin 1.01 points per 20 minutes.
Taylor Hall .96 points per 20 minutes.
Eberle 1.1 point per 20 minutes.
While I tried to hold most variables constant, some could not be controlled. They are all pretty comparable.
The Bruins play in a defensive oriented system whereas the Oilers play in a more wide open attacking system. Also, I think (but am not sure) that both Hall and Eberle had more PP time.
As a side not Hall was -4, Eberle was +4 and Seguin was +34. I know this is not a tell tale sign but Julien emphasizes a strong two way commitment even with his youngsters.
I know it is all 3 players second years, but I think both Segs and Hall will outperform Eberles 22 year old season when the time comes.
You forgot to say that all that time Hall was playing with a bad shoulder , Plus with the other fluke injuries it takes time once you come back to get up to game speed . I am sure Hall will Past Seguin points this year . This does not make Hall the better player , that is to be debated at a later time , Like when the Oilers make the playoffs and we get to see Hall,s drive that made him a 2 time MVP of the MC
This is the correct answer when people talk about Boston's defensive system stifling their players' offense.
Oh the defensive system doesn't stifle the teams offense and that's a testament to the players they do have. Not only do they have to be solid offensively, but they also have to be just as solid defensively. It also spreads the offense out more over all the lines.
Team offense doesn't suffer, individual offense does at times.
In short, your post is a perfect example of people who base their arguments solely off of NHL.com stat lines without actually knowing anything about the team itself.
You guys are happy with Eberle and I don't fault you for that at all. We're happy with Lucic, you'll just have to get over it if that doesn't appeal to your senses.
