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Like the trade, don't like the trade

View Poll Results: Do you like the trade for Nash?
Yes 397 90.23%
No 43 9.77%
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Old
08-01-2012, 04:43 PM
  #301
Brian Boyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'm one of those who doesn't believe a 40 goal scorer is worth the same as two guys who net 20.

Even if on paper the players are a wash when it comes to scoring, I don't think you can discount the attention the 40 goal scorer generates, thus opening up time and space for his teammates.

The Rangers have two legit 40 goal scorers on their roster. Playing them on seperate lines opens up a lot of space for other teammates and doesn't allow a team to stack their defense on one unit.

Even if AA and Dubi combine for more goals than Nash, I still just don't see it as a wash because it changes the entire dynamic of the team and forces opposing teams to really have to play a good game to contain the Rangers offense.
Not to mention they combine to equal his production while combining to (nearly) double his ice time.

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08-01-2012, 04:53 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
oh no, this is bad. can you forward this special report to Sather? maybe they can revoke the trade. Whew! Good thing you found this! you cracked the case wide open! good job!
Nothing you will say to me will convince me that Nash was the right player to make a move for. We can only wait to see how he performs and cross our fingers that he magically ups his production from 59 pt player.

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08-01-2012, 06:16 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I read the 61 thoughts by Portzline and here are some parts that are concerning:









This is the thing that stuck out to me before the trade. ^



http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-thoughts.html
He's not captain material.

Good thing he won't be captain here, we've got a pretty good one. Nash won't even wear an A.

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08-01-2012, 06:35 PM
  #304
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I think Nash has good leadership qualities. What he's not is a Mark Messier, put the team on his back and carry them type.

He was a guy who a mediocre franchise but their misplaced hopes on and it didn't work. As such, everything he is and everything he is not was eventually under the microscope with no hope of a truly happy resolution for anyone involved.

I think Nash is ideally a guy who works best wearing an "A" and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, as the face of the franchise and the 'annointed one', with a very high salary, that just wasn't going to work.

This could be a situation where the trade is just as beneficial to the player, as it is to the team acquiring him.

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08-01-2012, 06:55 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nothing you will say to me will convince me that Nash was the right player to make a move for. We can only wait to see how he performs and cross our fingers that he magically ups his production from 59 pt player.
"Magically"

Your ignorance regarding just how bad the Columbus roster is/was outside of Nash is comical at this point.

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08-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
"Magically"

Your ignorance regarding just how bad the Columbus roster is/was outside of Nash is comical at this point.
I think you have to expect Nash to increase his point total. But no one should get their hopes up and automatically expect him to easily pot 80. He isn't a big playmaker. Doesn't rack up a lot of assists. He likes to possess the puck to shoot not pass. Obviously he played with less talented players in CBJ over the years where he loses some assists but you should expect a big jump in assists from him.

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08-01-2012, 07:20 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGY View Post
I think you have to expect Nash to increase his point total. But no one should get their hopes up and automatically expect him to easily pot 80. He isn't a big playmaker. Doesn't rack up a lot of assists. He likes to possess the puck to shoot not pass. Obviously he played with less talented players in CBJ over the years where he loses some assists but you should expect a big jump in assists from him.
CBJ fans are saying he's a great playmaker, but his linemates would not finish on his passes.

So, I think it's reasonable to expect 35+ assists. I think 40-40 is attainable for him, but more realistically, 35-35.

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08-01-2012, 07:24 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
CBJ fans are saying he's a great playmaker, but his linemates would not finish on his passes.

So, I think it's reasonable to expect 35+ assists. I think 40-40 is attainable for him, but more realistically, 35-35.
35-35-70 would be great for his first season here, assuming we start on time.

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08-01-2012, 07:27 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'm one of those who doesn't believe a 40 goal scorer is worth the same as two guys who net 20.

Even if on paper the players are a wash when it comes to scoring, I don't think you can discount the attention the 40 goal scorer generates, thus opening up time and space for his teammates.

The Rangers have two legit 40 goal scorers on their roster. Playing them on seperate lines opens up a lot of space for other teammates and doesn't allow a team to stack their defense on one unit.

Even if AA and Dubi combine for more goals than Nash, I still just don't see it as a wash because it changes the entire dynamic of the team and forces opposing teams to really have to play a good game to contain the Rangers offense.
I absolutely agree with that. But in my post I questioned whether the deal would be considered a "win" in our favor if Nash only put up 33G/33A and Dubi 25G/30A and Artie 20G/25A next season. If that were the case I think at best you would say it was about a wash, and that's not counting Erixon and the 1st rounder. Certainly I used low estimates for Nash and high figures for Dubie/Artie...but I don't think anyone could argue these numbers are outside the realm of possibility. And obviously 1 years worth of performance from any of these guys doesn't ultimately decide anything. My point is simply that while this appears to be a win on paper, let's see how things actually play out. I'm optimistic Nash can net 40...but he could also bust his MCL in training camp and miss a year. Time will tell.

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08-01-2012, 07:39 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I absolutely agree with that. But in my post I questioned whether the deal would be considered a "win" in our favor if Nash only put up 33G/33A and Dubi 25G/30A and Artie 20G/25A next season. If that were the case I think at best you would say it was about a wash, and that's not counting Erixon and the 1st rounder. Certainly I used low estimates for Nash and high figures for Dubie/Artie...but I don't think anyone could argue these numbers are outside the realm of possibility. And obviously 1 years worth of performance from any of these guys doesn't ultimately decide anything. My point is simply that while this appears to be a win on paper, let's see how things actually play out. I'm optimistic Nash can net 40...but he could also bust his MCL in training camp and miss a year. Time will tell.
I guess it really depends on how Nash scores 33 goals and 66 points. Does he do it in a way that draws focus to him but allows guys like Gaborik, Callahan, Kreider, Stepan and Richards to have some freedom, and thus increase their point totals? Does he make it so that on any given night, the Rangers are consistent offensive threat? Does he score goals in crucial situations, or does he go 6 games without scoring and nets a hat trick in a blowout game?

And I totally agree with you, anything we say is theoretical and "on paper" for now. I will say this - we look darn good on paper right now. And in my eyes, considerably better than we did last year.

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08-01-2012, 07:46 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nothing you will say to me will convince me that Nash was the right player to make a move for. We can only wait to see how he performs and cross our fingers that he magically ups his production from 59 pt player.
I am not the least bit interested in convincing you of anything. You can cross your fingers, wish upon a star, stuff your pockets with lucky clovers and rabbits feet for all i care.

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08-01-2012, 07:54 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I absolutely agree with that. But in my post I questioned whether the deal would be considered a "win" in our favor if Nash only put up 33G/33A and Dubi 25G/30A and Artie 20G/25A next season. If that were the case I think at best you would say it was about a wash, and that's not counting Erixon and the 1st rounder. Certainly I used low estimates for Nash and high figures for Dubie/Artie...but I don't think anyone could argue these numbers are outside the realm of possibility. And obviously 1 years worth of performance from any of these guys doesn't ultimately decide anything. My point is simply that while this appears to be a win on paper, let's see how things actually play out. I'm optimistic Nash can net 40...but he could also bust his MCL in training camp and miss a year. Time will tell.
So Nash puts up 33/33 with Duby/AA hitting career #s for a wash, yet one year's worth of performance isn't enough to decide anything, and Nash can also bust his MCL.

some textbook circular reasoning here only to arrive at the tried and true "he can get hurt in training camp" theory. The fact that "anything can happen" proves nothing. Does that really need to be said?

People saw the results of what just adding B.Richards did to the offensive intelligence of this team. many naysayers were rendered silent by the results of last season. The same will be said for next season with Nash in fold.

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08-01-2012, 07:57 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I guess it really depends on how Nash scores 33 goals and 66 points. Does he do it in a way that draws focus to him but allows guys like Gaborik, Callahan, Kreider, Stepan and Richards to have some freedom, and thus increase their point totals? Does he make it so that on any given night, the Rangers are consistent offensive threat? Does he score goals in crucial situations, or does he go 6 games without scoring and nets a hat trick in a blowout game?
All excellent points. Hopefully he's scoring the game tying or winning goals more times than not, as opposed to the empty netters and hat tricks in the 6-0 shutouts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
And I totally agree with you, anything we say is theoretical and "on paper" for now. I will say this - we look darn good on paper right now. And in my eyes, considerably better than we did last year.
I'm trying to remember the last time we actually had three 1st line talents and six top 6 guys on the roster? I guess it's been a while. We're definitely looking good right now. As much as I always tell people to enjoy their summer and not to wish their days away...I am really looking forward to training camp. There really better not be a lockout.

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08-02-2012, 03:42 AM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'm one of those who doesn't believe a 40 goal scorer is worth the same as two guys who net 20.

Even if on paper the players are a wash when it comes to scoring, I don't think you can discount the attention the 40 goal scorer generates, thus opening up time and space for his teammates.

The Rangers have two legit 40 goal scorers on their roster. Playing them on seperate lines opens up a lot of space for other teammates and doesn't allow a team to stack their defense on one unit.

Even if AA and Dubi combine for more goals than Nash, I still just don't see it as a wash because it changes the entire dynamic of the team and forces opposing teams to really have to play a good game to contain the Rangers offense.
Fully agree on all counts. Nash will absolutely create opportunities for others and generate matchup issues for the opposition. And heading into the season with him and Kreider in the lineup adds a very different dynamic to this team 5 on 5 and on the PP. Regardless of what Dubi and AA would've done here, the NYR are much easier to defend and contain with those two in the lineup than they are with Rick Nash.

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08-02-2012, 07:37 AM
  #315
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Nash was brought in to compliment our centers and provide scoring. It allows our "depth" to slot into their correct roles. Asking Kreider to play on the 1st line as a rookie was not going to work.

I will judge this trade by how well the Rangers do in the regular season and the playoffs.

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08-02-2012, 08:06 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Sure, on paper we win this trade. But what if Dubi has a 25G/30A season and Artie puts up 20G/25A? Did we win the deal hands down if Nash scores 33G and has 33A? Not sure I'd agree with that, considering we also gave up a kid who could easily be a top 4 dman and a 1st round pick to boot. So yeah, can say hands down that we got the best player...but I think it's a bit premature to talk about how badly we fleeced Columbus when none of the 5 players involved have played a single game for their new teams.
Well, you have to add in the production you are going to get from AA's replacement as well.

If Kreider benefits from taking AA's spot, then the production you get from Kreider in Addition to that of Nash has to be in the equation.

assuming Dubi = 25G/30A and AA = 20G/25A for 45G/55A

We have to assume Nash = 33G/33A and Kreider 15G/20A (conservatively) we are looking at 48G/53A

What I expect from Nash and Kreider?

Nash - 35G/40A
Kreider - 20G/25A

that's still a win for the Rangers

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08-02-2012, 08:11 AM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nothing you will say to me will convince me that Nash was the right player to make a move for. We can only wait to see how he performs and cross our fingers that he magically ups his production from 59 pt player.
Nash is as much a 59 point player as Dubbi is a 10 goal scorer.

Neither statement is true or accurately reflects the players true and legit abilities.

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08-02-2012, 08:25 AM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think Nash has good leadership qualities. What he's not is a Mark Messier, put the team on his back and carry them type.

He was a guy who a mediocre franchise but their misplaced hopes on and it didn't work. As such, everything he is and everything he is not was eventually under the microscope with no hope of a truly happy resolution for anyone involved.

I think Nash is ideally a guy who works best wearing an "A" and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, as the face of the franchise and the 'annointed one', with a very high salary, that just wasn't going to work.

This could be a situation where the trade is just as beneficial to the player, as it is to the team acquiring him.
The situation Nash is leaving and the situation Nash is coming to are so completely different that there is no way at this time to determine how whatever leadership qualities Nash may or may not have will translate to the Rangers.

We'll just have to wait and see how he assimilates and develops. Cannot assume he'll step in and be a leader, and we also cannot assume he won't be a leader because he's finally playing with guys who are equal to/better than him.

Time will tell...any predictions on Nash's leadership on the Rangers is just supposition at this point.

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08-02-2012, 08:28 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGY View Post
I think you have to expect Nash to increase his point total. But no one should get their hopes up and automatically expect him to easily pot 80. He isn't a big playmaker. Doesn't rack up a lot of assists. He likes to possess the puck to shoot not pass. Obviously he played with less talented players in CBJ over the years where he loses some assists but you should expect a big jump in assists from him.
I think he'll be somewhere around 40/30/70.

I also think the attention he'll command from the opposition will lead to increased point totals for his teammates. Thats a dynamic that Dubinsky and Anisimov couldnt dream of on their best day

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08-02-2012, 08:54 AM
  #320
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Well, you have to add in the production you are going to get from AA's replacement as well.

If Kreider benefits from taking AA's spot, then the production you get from Kreider in Addition to that of Nash has to be in the equation.

assuming Dubi = 25G/30A and AA = 20G/25A for 45G/55A

We have to assume Nash = 33G/33A and Kreider 15G/20A (conservatively) we are looking at 48G/53A

What I expect from Nash and Kreider?

Nash - 35G/40A
Kreider - 20G/25A

that's still a win for the Rangers
I agree that you have to add in the production you are going to get from AA's replacement as well. BUT, Kreider was already on the team regardless of AA's departure, so he was/is not Artie's replacement. His replacement is likely Taylor Pyatt. So:

What we expect from Nash and Pyatt?

Nash - 35G/40A
Pyatt - 15G/12A

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08-02-2012, 09:47 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I agree that you have to add in the production you are going to get from AA's replacement as well. BUT, Kreider was already on the team regardless of AA's departure, so he was/is not Artie's replacement. His replacement is likely Taylor Pyatt. So:

What we expect from Nash and Pyatt?

Nash - 35G/40A
Pyatt - 15G/12A
Kreider was on the team in the postseason and you're using regular season numbers here.

Over the course of a full regular season, it is fair to say that Kreider is a replacement over someone else.

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08-02-2012, 01:08 PM
  #322
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Jim Cerny said he would be surprised if Nash isn't at 35 goals and 70 points

Darren Dreger said on WFAN that Nash will have 40 goals without even trying playing with Richards

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08-02-2012, 01:19 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Kreider was on the team in the postseason and you're using regular season numbers here.

Over the course of a full regular season, it is fair to say that Kreider is a replacement over someone else.
But when evaluating the Nash trade, I don't see how we can consider Kreider as the replacement for Dubi or Artie. Sure, we can talk about him taking Artie's ice time...but not really as far as additional scoring in the lineup is concerned. I mean he was already playing along side them and by the end of the playoffs I don't think there was a single person here who was doubtful regarding him being a fixture in the lineup.

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08-02-2012, 01:26 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Jim Cerny said he would be surprised if Nash isn't at 35 goals and 70 points

Darren Dreger said on WFAN that Nash will have 40 goals without even trying playing with Richards
yeah, like i said, i think Nashs projected numbers this coming season are hard to do just because we dont know how many games are played. if he plays 82 games, i dont see him scoring less than 35.

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08-02-2012, 01:32 PM
  #325
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All I care about is that he comes in and fits into the style of play. If he can do that, the points will come. Maybe not right away, but they will come. Richards took some time to transition as well.

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