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Your Opinion of Ray Shero

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Old
08-02-2012, 09:50 AM
  #976
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
Well, it's certainly not risk free. $7 million would eat up almost all of our available cap space, severely hampering our ability to change mid-season if things aren't working out.

I was a fan of signing Semin, but not at $7 million, even for one year. There's just too many scenarios where we'll need to explore other options (e.g. the cap contracting and having better options available, injuries to the blueline or goalie necessitating a trade, better long-term solutions becoming available due to negotiations breaking down,, etc...) where that $7 million is just as much of a straight jacket as not.

This is not to say I advocate making risk-free moves-- hardly. I just think that, for the amount of money Semin signed for, we'd be taking on more risk than reward.

I mean, look at the Subban situation-- if we signed Semin, we'd be unable to (hypothetically) offer-sheet him, or sign him if the Habs can't come to terms and want to trade. I'd much rather have Subban on the Pens than Semin, no question.

So, you don't even have to look very far or very hypothetically to find situations where Semin's contract would hamper us in very concrete terms.

edit: Also, given the amount of other high-profile teams with large amounts of cap space, I think it's not unlikely that some teams are preparing for the worst in that regard.
Missing out on a the ability to offer sheet Subban is an absurd reason not to sign Semin. I know you were just pointing out possibilities, but that in itself was and is less likely than us signing Semin. The chances of Shero offer sheeting anyone is slim, but a guy with a history of attitude/team issues is just about the last player he would ever offer sheet.

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08-02-2012, 09:58 AM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Missing out on a the ability to offer sheet Subban is an absurd reason not to sign Semin. I know you were just pointing out possibilities, but that in itself was and is less likely than us signing Semin. The chances of Shero offer sheeting anyone is slim, but a guy with a history of attitude/team issues is just about the last player he would ever offer sheet.
I think the point is it could have hindered us from doing any other big moves. The argument was that signing Semin was risk free because it's only a year, but even just a year has potential drawbacks. Subban was just the example we were talking about at the time. Nobody thinks Subban is a real option as far as I can tell.

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08-02-2012, 10:06 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think the point is it could have hindered us from doing any other big moves. The argument was that signing Semin was risk free because it's only a year, but even just a year has potential drawbacks. Subban was just the example we were talking about at the time. Nobody thinks Subban is a real option as far as I can tell.
Yeah I just think using Subban as an example substantially weakens the argument. If one can't think of somewhat realistic and desirable examples of the who we can't acquire because of Semin then I'm all ears. Say the cap doesn't go down, which seems more likely than it going down, we have what 9.5 mil in space? Semin takes 7 of that.

So by the deadline, we could still acquire Bobby Ryan with any salary going the other way (Kennedy, Tyler). Iginla is likely out unless Martin goes the other way, but I really don't believe he's likely to be moved. That team loves being in the 8th-11th spot it seems. Unless he requests a trade, I don't think they move him.

Look, I'm not mad we didn't pay 7 mil on a one year deal for Semin because it was pretty apparent to me we weren't interested in him. I just don't buy the argument that there is a lot of risk involved with that deal (in the sense that it prevents us from making other marquee moves). There is risk in Semin (some of it potentially more reputation based than reality) but a one year deal substantially lessened that risk.

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08-02-2012, 10:44 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yeah I just think using Subban as an example substantially weakens the argument. If one can't think of somewhat realistic and desirable examples of the who we can't acquire because of Semin then I'm all ears. Say the cap doesn't go down, which seems more likely than it going down, we have what 9.5 mil in space? Semin takes 7 of that.

So by the deadline, we could still acquire Bobby Ryan with any salary going the other way (Kennedy, Tyler). Iginla is likely out unless Martin goes the other way, but I really don't believe he's likely to be moved. That team loves being in the 8th-11th spot it seems. Unless he requests a trade, I don't think they move him.

Look, I'm not mad we didn't pay 7 mil on a one year deal for Semin because it was pretty apparent to me we weren't interested in him. I just don't buy the argument that there is a lot of risk involved with that deal (in the sense that it prevents us from making other marquee moves). There is risk in Semin (some of it potentially more reputation based than reality) but a one year deal substantially lessened that risk.
I think that's the point. There is still risk even if it's lowered quite a bit by being a one year deal. As far as examples, it would delay any potential trades Shero is working on that bring back more than 2M in salary for several months. I don't know how big of a deal that is, but its something. Not all trades happen in July and March.

Again, I would have been happy to sign Semin for a year even at 7M. But there are definitely legitimate reasons why Shero might not have wanted to.

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08-02-2012, 10:50 AM
  #980
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I don't buy the argument that shero hasnt signed anyone because he is waiting on the new cba. Do you really think the NHL is going to lower the cap by that much? And teams won't get a grace period to get below the new cap? Do you really think teams are going to have forced fire sales? Come on.

You are just giving shero an easy out. If he was so concerned about the new cba, why did he even pursue Parise and Doan in the first place?

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08-02-2012, 10:50 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think that's the point. There is still risk even if it's lowered quite a bit by being a one year deal. As far as examples, it would delay any potential trades Shero is working on that bring back more than 2M in salary for several months. I don't know how big of a deal that is, but its something. Not all trades happen in July and March.

Again, I would have been happy to sign Semin for a year even at 7M. But there are definitely legitimate reasons why Shero might not have wanted to.
Then you have to take into consideration that Semin is likely to eliminate a need for a potential trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
I don't buy the argument that shero hasnt signed anyone because he is waiting on the new cba. Do you really think the NHL is going to lower the cap by that much? And teams won't get a grace period to get below the new cap? Do you really think teams are going to have forced fire sales? Come on.
It's certainly a possibility.


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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
You are just giving shero an easy out. If he was so concerned about the new cba, why did he even pursue Parise and Doan in the first place?
A reasonable price for Doan would still leave them at least $3m under the cap. And Parise and Suter are such quality pieces, that the risk of CBA uncertainty or the cost of moving other players for cap purposes, became worth it.


Last edited by Rocket of Russia: 08-02-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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08-02-2012, 11:03 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Rocket of Russia View Post
Then you have to take into consideration that Semin is likely to eliminate a need for a potential trade.
If he plays as well as he can, ya. But there's still the risk that he just won't show up in big games. The risk is that he won't be that good of a player and even if its only for one year, that's still a risk. If Shero just doesn't like him as a player then he wouldn't want to bring him in for a year at the expense of bringing in a better solution in that position.

Again, I would have probably taken the risk. But there IS risk in signing Semin for 7M even if its only for a year.

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08-02-2012, 11:03 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think that's the point. There is still risk even if it's lowered quite a bit by being a one year deal. As far as examples, it would delay any potential trades Shero is working on that bring back more than 2M in salary for several months. I don't know how big of a deal that is, but its something. Not all trades happen in July and March.

Again, I would have been happy to sign Semin for a year even at 7M. But there are definitely legitimate reasons why Shero might not have wanted to.
Really the point is that Shero didn't want Semin. Signing him for 7 million is your winger acquisition. You roll with:

Semin-Sid-Duper
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

or something like that and that is the best top 6 in the league. You don't have a need to make any other trades until you see that Semin doesn't work out or you need more offensive or defensive depth (which would come later in the season closer to the deadline). The risk in this kind of deal is really low IMO. The point though is that Semin just wasn't desired on this team. I don't have a huge problem with that by any means. I just think the argument that it prevents all these other moves is silly. Semin would be THE move.

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08-02-2012, 11:08 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If he plays as well as he can, ya. But there's still the risk that he just won't show up in big games. If Shero just doesn't like him as a player then he wouldn't want to bring him in for a year at the expense of bringing in a better solution in that position.
Yeah and if he doesn't show up in big regular season games, we still are a good enough team to win. Isn't that the argument not to rush to make any moves now? That we have enough depth and skill to score and win in the regular season? The point is you sign him and have time to see how he does. In the mean time you weren't going to make any other moves anyway (now if we make some major trade or acquisition before December than that makes this point wrong but none of us know this right now).

Really it boils down to not wanting Semin or Mario and Burkle not wanting to pay 7 million of their money for a player Shero and the organization weren't that high on.

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08-02-2012, 11:11 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Really the point is that Shero didn't want Semin. Signing him for 7 million is your winger acquisition. You roll with:

Semin-Sid-Duper
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

or something like that and that is the best top 6 in the league. You don't have a need to make any other trades until you see that Semin doesn't work out or you need more offensive or defensive depth (which would come later in the season closer to the deadline). The risk in this kind of deal is really low IMO. The point though is that Semin just wasn't desired on this team. I don't have a huge problem with that by any means. I just think the argument that it prevents all these other moves is silly. Semin would be THE move.
right. And Semin being THE move is a risk I can understand not wanting to take.

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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yeah and if he doesn't show up in big regular season games, we still are a good enough team to win. Isn't that the argument not to rush to make any moves now? That we have enough depth and skill to score and win in the regular season? The point is you sign him and have time to see how he does. In the mean time you weren't going to make any other moves anyway (now if we make some major trade or acquisition before December than that makes this point wrong but none of us know this right now).

Really it boils down to not wanting Semin or Mario and Burkle not wanting to pay 7 million of their money for a player Shero and the organization weren't that high on.
The regular season isn't where I'd worry about him.

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08-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
right. And Semin being THE move is a risk I can understand not wanting to take.
Yeah I agree and always have. I guess I'm not even sure what I'm debating at this point.

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08-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Really the point is that Shero didn't want Semin. Signing him for 7 million is your winger acquisition. You roll with:

Semin-Sid-Duper
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

or something like that and that is the best top 6 in the league. You don't have a need to make any other trades until you see that Semin doesn't work out or you need more offensive or defensive depth (which would come later in the season closer to the deadline). The risk in this kind of deal is really low IMO. The point though is that Semin just wasn't desired on this team. I don't have a huge problem with that by any means. I just think the argument that it prevents all these other moves is silly. Semin would be THE move.
Exactly.

People on this site are very creative in conjuring up reasons to justify Shero's poor offseason. Seriously, I give you guys props in finding the silver lining in everything. I wish I could.

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08-02-2012, 11:15 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
The regular season isn't where I'd worry about him.
Yeah I know but at that point we'd have the cap space to make another move. That's the point.

You first argued that Semin prevented us from making trades. I said he didn't prevent us from deadline moves. You said well not all trades are made in March and then responded to someone else saying he might not show up in big games. I may have taken that out of context but I don't think that's relevant since we can make an additional move by the deadline to ensure if he doesn't show up then we bench him.

So basically, Shero didn't want Semin.

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08-02-2012, 11:20 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Exactly.

People on this site are very creative in conjuring up reasons to justify Shero's poor offseason. Seriously, I give you guys props in finding the silver lining in everything. I wish I could.
it is not hard to justify not signing Semin for 7 million dollars. I say that as someone who would have signed him for 7 million dollars if it was up to me.

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08-02-2012, 11:28 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
it is not hard to justify not signing Semin for 7 million dollars. I say that as someone who would have signed him for 7 million dollars if it was up to me.
I agree which is why it's silly that I keep trying to debate you.

There is a risk to Semin and there's probably more to the story then we know inside the Pens organization. I would have signed Semin to that deal, but I'm not going to pretend I know all the facts and plans on the issue. But on a message board, I will argue like hell that it was a low risk move, given the term of the deal and our additional cap space for a deadline acquisition.

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08-02-2012, 11:28 AM
  #991
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
it is not hard to justify not signing Semin for 7 million dollars. I say that as someone who would have signed him for 7 million dollars if it was up to me.
Yea, but some people claim he passed on signing semin because of the uncertainty of the new cba or that it would preclude them from offer sheeting someone. It's fine that he passed on him, but make a pretty damn good trade.

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08-02-2012, 11:33 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Yea, but some people claim he passed on signing semin because of the uncertainty of the new cba or that it would preclude them from offer sheeting someone. It's fine that he passed on him, but make a pretty damn good trade.
well if those things weren't possible (though mostly trades are what matter) then there would be absolutely no risk in signing him. If it was literally Semin or nothing then there would be no reason not to want him.

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08-02-2012, 11:38 AM
  #993
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Yea, but some people claim he passed on signing semin because of the uncertainty of the new cba or that it would preclude them from offer sheeting someone. It's fine that he passed on him, but make a pretty damn good trade.
Sometimes the right move just isn't available. Shero isn't the only GM trying to make his team better, but as he's shown numerous times, he will make a move when it benefits the team. Turn off the hate-on you have for Shero and get some perspective.

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08-02-2012, 12:03 PM
  #994
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Sometimes the right move just isn't available. Shero isn't the only GM trying to make his team better, but as he's shown numerous times, he will make a move when it benefits the team. Turn off the hate-on you have for Shero and get some perspective.
I'm glad a voice of reason is going to end this thread as we approach the limit. I know it's been said, yet ignored, a lot in this thread. People think Shero has mind control as one of his talents.

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08-02-2012, 12:09 PM
  #995
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The biggest compliant I have about Shero is keeping Craig Adams; he was a good complimentary player back in 2009 during the cup run where the Pens seemed like they had 250 forwards. Now imo he's a waste of a roster spot, I don't care if he's only making $675k or 15 cents that money and roster spot could be put towards another player. All Adams does is pk (and he don't even do that well at times) and get pummeled in fights. I'd rather have Fehr at $2 million or Arnott at $1 million (not saying that's who Shero should get or the price they should or could be had for) I think Bylsma loves Adams (Adams must of pulled Byslma from a burning building) but I understand that Adams is a clone of how Byslma played but if Shero is keeping Adams around to keep Bylsma happy then that's ridiculous. This team's playoff performance has declined every year since winning the cup, Byslma shouldn't be rewarded with keeping around players that he likes. If the Pens suffer another injury crisis especially at center then you got Craig Adams as your 3rd maybe 2nd line center? The team's franchise player, best player and best played in the world just signed a contract to remain with the team for the rest of his career, and he should be rewarded with the Pens getting the best players they can with the options available.

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08-02-2012, 12:11 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
So basically, Shero didn't want Semin.
We'll likely never know the full story but apparently not for $7m and apparently not for multiple years.

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08-02-2012, 12:11 PM
  #997
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The biggest compliant I have about Shero is keeping Craig Adams; he was a good complimentary player back in 2009 during the cup run where the Pens seemed like they had 250 forwards. Now imo he's a waste of a roster spot, I don't care if he's only making $675k or 15 cents that money and roster spot could be put towards another player. All Adams does is pk (and he don't even do that well at times) and get pummeled in fights. I'd rather have Fehr at $2 million or Arnott at $1 million (not saying that's who Shero should get or the price they should or could be had for) I think Bylsma loves Adams (Adams must of pulled Byslma from a burning building) but I understand that Adams is a clone of how Byslma played but if Shero is keeping Adams around to keep Bylsma happy then that's ridiculous. This team's playoff performance has declined every year since winning the cup, Byslma shouldn't be rewarded with keeping around players that he likes. If the Pens suffer another injury crisis especially at center then you got Craig Adams as your 3rd maybe 2nd line center? The team's franchise player, best player and best played in the world just signed a contract to remain with the team for the rest of his career, and he should be rewarded with the Pens getting the best players they can with the options available.
Until last year, Adams was one of our better playoff performers the way he'd block shots and finish hits. Last year his wheels completely fell off and he became such an average player.

At that point, you have to blame Bylsma for continuing to play him. Not Shero.

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08-02-2012, 12:12 PM
  #998
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I'm glad a voice of reason is going to end this thread as we approach the limit. I know it's been said, yet ignored, a lot in this thread. People think Shero has mind control as one of his talents.
Well, before a thread anywhere on this board becomes overwhelmed with 'reason', I'll ask you (and everyone else) this:

Would Ray Shero last year have made a Hossa deal if it were available? Would he have made a Hal Gill (i.e., Grossman price tag) deal?

The argument here, IMO, isn't so much over it being rational for Shero only to go for the RIGHT deal. IMO, it's how his definition of the RIGHT deal seems to have evolved.

That said, I keep saying this is the third era of Shero's tenure. Era one was until the Pens won the cup. Era two was from the cup win until the Staal trade. We're only a month into era three, so I, for one, will continue to withhold final judgment until the deadline (can't promise there won't be anxiety induced relapses between now and then).

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08-02-2012, 12:13 PM
  #999
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We have hit our limit, folks! Finally!

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