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Old
08-02-2012, 10:50 AM
  #76
Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackJ View Post
Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo MacArthur
Connolly McClement Kulemin
Brown Steckel Lombardi
AHL: Kadri/Frattin

It should be a season with Kadri and Frattin given top nine minutes but.......
If Burke can figure out how to get rid of Connolly, MacArthur, Lombardi in the next couple of months than it will open a roster spot for Frattin, Kadri and Colborne in the process.

Then he needs to acquire a #1 center and might as well include Bozak in the deal as he becomes redundant as well now.

Its going to be a busy few months ahead for Burke in order to reshape this team through external as well as internal upgrades to the Leafs roster.

Lupul ---- #1 Center --- Kessel
JVR ------ Grabovski --- Kulemin
Kadri ---- Colborne ---- Frattin
Steckel -- McClement -- Brown

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Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
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Old
08-02-2012, 11:01 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
So Leafs prospect pool is essentially irrelevant than?

IF Kessel, Bozak, Lupul, JVR, Grabovski and MacArthur make up the top 6.

& Kulemin, McClement and Connolly occupy the 3rd line as a checking unit.

& Lombardi, Steckel, Brown comprise the 4th line.

Therefore there is simply no place nor opportunity for the Leafs youth within the organization in the current picture.
There never is and there never was. Most of our players right now are from trades. We'll never be a team that builds from within not with media and fan pressure to win. The only forward I see we drafted is Kulemin. Maybe Frattin and Kadri get a chance with injuries but that'll be it. Kinda sad. Even our dmen maybe Gunnarsson is the exception. Reimer is the only goalie we drafted and not sure if he's gonna pan out. OUR TEAM IS MADE UP OF TRADES!!!!!!

Only drafted players we have right now (maybe this is why we suck)

1. Kulemin
2. Gunnarsson
3. Reimer

Kadri, Frattin and Holzer on the outside looking in.

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Old
08-02-2012, 11:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by catgoldfish View Post
There never is and there never was. Most of our players right now are from trades. We'll never be a team that builds from within not with media and fan pressure to win. The only forward I see we drafted is Kulemin. Maybe Frattin and Kadri get a chance with injuries but that'll be it. Kinda sad. Even our dmen maybe Gunnarsson is the exception. Reimer is the only goalie we drafted and not sure if he's gonna pan out. OUR TEAM IS MADE UP OF TRADES!!!!!!

Only drafted players we have right now (maybe this is why we suck)

1. Kulemin
2. Gunnarsson
3. Reimer

Kadri, Frattin and Holzer on the outside looking in.
What is disheartening beyond that fact is that despite the Marlies going all the way the Calder Cup this year, none of them appear to have earned promotion to the big club for their efforts..

What is left other than a Calder Championship itself for these kids to have earned their NHL shots?

Other than perhaps Holzer as a #7 depth player to fill the roster spot of the departed youngster of former top 5 Leaf drafted Luke Schenn. (excluding Gardiner, who was simply on loan for AHL playoffs), as the only Marlie graduate.

With the log jam of high priced veteran forwards on the Leafs roster, youngsters like Kadri, Colborne and Frattin will have their work cut out for them as none are guaranteed NHL rosters spots at present. Its business as usual in Leafland and as the GM seeks upgrades at center and in net the "kids" become the likely bait and currency to obtain these players in trade, instead of making them part of the solution for team improvement through their additions instead.


Last edited by Mess: 08-02-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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Old
08-02-2012, 11:30 AM
  #79
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So we have gone from taking prospect ratings as the gospel truth that the Leafs have nothing in the pipeline to whining that higly qualified youngsters aren't getting chances due to the presence of veterans.

Keepin' the place stupid.

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Old
08-02-2012, 11:35 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What is disheartening beyond that fact is that despite the Marlies going all the way the Calder Cup this year, none of them appear to have earned promotion to the big club for their efforts..What is left other than a Calder Championship itself for these kids to have earned their NHL shots?

Other than perhaps Holzer as a #7 depth player to fill the roster spot of the departed youngster of former top 5 Leaf drafted Luke Schenn. (excluding Gardiner, who was simply on loan for AHL playoffs), as the only Marlie graduate.

With the log jam of high priced veteran forwards on the Leafs roster, youngsters like Kadri, Colborne and Frattin will have their work cut out for them as none are guaranteed NHL rosters spots at present. Its business as usual in Leafland and as the GM seeks upgrades at center and in net the "kids" become the likely bait and currency to obtain these players in trade, instead of making them part of the solution for team improvement through their additions instead.
Wow, I didnt realize the season started already?? Last I checked, Gardiner earned his was on the team, and players like Franson had to sit. Odd that, that exception would be made for Gardiner and not the other youngsters if they out play others? It's been said countelss times, Burke wants to create competition at every position, and may the best player win, vet or rookie. As we had seen with Gardiner. You're trying very hard to create a scenario that doesnt exist, and has proven against your theory. I remember a time not too long ago the Leafs never had this many young players with skill chomping at the bit to get on the big club. Seems to be overlooked though?

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Old
08-02-2012, 05:15 PM
  #81
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Tim Connolly put up 13-23-36 points & -14 +/-

Matt Lombardi put up 8-10-18 points & -19 +/-

They made up 2/3rd of Leafs 3rd line last season.

Do fans really believe that if Kardi and Frattin replaced them on the 3rd line that they're contribution would be less and their +/- results worse?

That doesn't even take into account Kadri ($1.7 mil) and Frattin ($925k) combined occupy $2.6 mil while Connolly and Lombardi occupy $8.25 and the exchange provides +$6mil in additional cap space.

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Old
08-02-2012, 05:17 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Tim Connolly put up 13-23-36 points & -14 +/-

Matt Lombardi put up 8-10-18 points & -19 +/-

They made up 2/3rd of Leafs 3rd line last season.

Do fans really believe that if Kardi and Frattin replaced them on the 3rd line that they're contribution would be less and their +/- results worse?
I'm confused are you back on "play the kids" for this thread only?

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Old
08-02-2012, 05:24 PM
  #83
Doug Gilmour
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That's just not going to happen. Carlyle uses his third line in a shutdown role. The Leafs score plenty of goals - they have trouble keeping them out.
Didn't Carlyle use Penner-Getzlaf-Perry in the third line when they were all rookies or sophmores?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kadri -- Colborne -- Frattin

"Play the Kids" promote from within, as that is what building through drafting and development is all about.

Simultaneously rid the current team of is "sense of entitlement" overpaid, under-performing vets that plague the team, and reward the kids for their AHL efforts to lead the Marlies to the Calder cup finals. They've earned their opportunity !!!
I like that line, it resembles his "Kid Line" that developed in his first line and players we all wish we had now.

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Old
08-02-2012, 05:33 PM
  #84
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I like that line, it resembles his "Kid Line" that developed in his first line and players we all wish we had now.
The only way for kids to get NHL experience is to play in the NHL.

So many fans believe "playing the kids" and "winning" are mutual exclusive, and opposites, when many teams break in "kids" in support roles to allow them to develop. For example Philly is breaking in kids 20 and under in Brayden Schenn & Sean Couturier in secondary roles on a team that topped 100 points and both played regular roles in the playoffs.

A 3rd line is an ideal line to deploy a kid-line leaving the required primary scoring to the top 6 forwards and the remaining line the checkers, grinders and PK players. A 3rd line is only the starting point and then hopefully the cream rises to the top and the kids advance up the roster as their development and skill sets allow.

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Old
08-02-2012, 05:39 PM
  #85
Tyler Biggs
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If the kids cannot beat out the players we have on our team, then they do not deserve spots. They need to make the veterans expendable by being better then them. If the kids are not better then the veterans and we move out the veterans and give the kids spots, then we are making our team worse.

I am fine with us moving out proven pieces to upgrade our roster now, but I don't want us trading away the future either just to upgrade our roster now.

Deals like:

Beauchemin for Lupul & Gardiner are deals I like. Lupul for Beauchemin straight up would have been a steal for us, so we improved our team now and in the future. We won the deal for now and in the future.

Lebda and Slaney for Franson and Lombardi I like. We improved our team now and in the future. We won the deal for now and in the future.

Ashton for Aulie. We didn't give up a roster piece for a future asset, we gave up a future asset for a future asset. And this deal was a bit of a steal for the Leafs. Ashton has top 6 upside, and more upside then Aulie, so we win the deal for the future, which it was intended for as both players won't help us now.

JVR for Schenn. Even deal right now but should win the deal in the future also. People thought Leafs should have added to get this deal done and all the polls I saw said the Leafs won this deal. So it is a pretty even deal for now, but it looks like we will win this deal in the future also.

The above deals are the ones I like. If we are patient, deals like this will present themselves hopefully. Obviously not many of these deals happen, but they do happen, we just need to be patient, and hope more of them happen.

There are players with low value, or players that have fallen out of favour with their teams or we could take on a cap dump to get a valuable asset along with the cap dump. We wouldn't have to give up much for these types of players, we just need to be patient and wait for these types of deals to come up.

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08-02-2012, 10:49 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Tim Connolly put up 13-23-36 points & -14 +/-

Matt Lombardi put up 8-10-18 points & -19 +/-

They made up 2/3rd of Leafs 3rd line last season.

Do fans really believe that if Kardi and Frattin replaced them on the 3rd line that they're contribution would be less and their +/- results worse?

That doesn't even take into account Kadri ($1.7 mil) and Frattin ($925k) combined occupy $2.6 mil while Connolly and Lombardi occupy $8.25 and the exchange provides +$6mil in additional cap space.
Frattin played almost as much as Lombardi last season.

Kadri was given a chance to run with a spot and quickly faded so he was sent down to the AHL again.

Developing players is unique to each player. Lots of teams have used the AHL as a development league with outstanding results for years.

Salary cap space is only relevant if you have somewhere to spend it.

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Old
08-03-2012, 06:42 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintoMadDogsKiller18 View Post
If the kids cannot beat out the players we have on our team, then they do not deserve spots. They need to make the veterans expendable by being better then them. If the kids are not better then the veterans and we move out the veterans and give the kids spots, then we are making our team worse.

I am fine with us moving out proven pieces to upgrade our roster now, but I don't want us trading away the future either just to upgrade our roster now.

Deals like:

Beauchemin for Lupul & Gardiner are deals I like. Lupul for Beauchemin straight up would have been a steal for us, so we improved our team now and in the future. We won the deal for now and in the future.

Lebda and Slaney for Franson and Lombardi I like. We improved our team now and in the future. We won the deal for now and in the future.

Ashton for Aulie. We didn't give up a roster piece for a future asset, we gave up a future asset for a future asset. And this deal was a bit of a steal for the Leafs. Ashton has top 6 upside, and more upside then Aulie, so we win the deal for the future, which it was intended for as both players won't help us now.

JVR for Schenn. Even deal right now but should win the deal in the future also. People thought Leafs should have added to get this deal done and all the polls I saw said the Leafs won this deal. So it is a pretty even deal for now, but it looks like we will win this deal in the future also.

The above deals are the ones I like. If we are patient, deals like this will present themselves hopefully. Obviously not many of these deals happen, but they do happen, we just need to be patient, and hope more of them happen.

There are players with low value, or players that have fallen out of favour with their teams or we could take on a cap dump to get a valuable asset along with the cap dump. We wouldn't have to give up much for these types of players, we just need to be patient and wait for these types of deals to come up.
Agreed with everything you said except for Ashton/Aulie, Schenn/JVR. Right now, Tampa is winning that deal because Aulie is a full-time NHLer. Until Ashton breaks into the roster full-time, we're on the losing end of that deal.

Schenn/JVR: this deal's a wash right now. Both guys need to have bounce back years, but I'd give a slight edge to Schenn because he has put up two very good, healthy seasons already; JVR has had partial seasons with some success, but still needs to put in a full, productive top 6 season for us to "win" the trade because I don't see Schenn doing more than a second-pairing guy, likely a 4/5 guy unless he finds some offensive in his game.

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Old
08-04-2012, 05:08 PM
  #88
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If Colborne, Kadri and Frattin can make the jump and JvR switch to C.

Lupul - JvR - Kessel
Kadri - Grabovski - Frattin
Kulemin - Colborne - MacArthur
Steckle - McClement - Komarov/Brown

if JvR can't...

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JvR - Grabovski - Frattin
Kulemin - Colborne - Kadri
Steckle - McClement - Komarov/Brown

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