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Stop signs are for quitters: the Moises Sierra story

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04-04-2012, 09:44 PM
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The Nemesis
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Stop signs are for quitters: the Moises Sierra story

So. Who wants avatars?

Rotation
Ricky RomeroAaron LaffeyHenderson AlvarezCarlos VillanuevaJ.A. Happ


Bullpen

Coming Soon
Chad JenkinsAaron LoupSteve DelabarBrad Lincoln
Brandon LyonDarren OliverCasey Janssen


Fielders

Rajai DavisBrett LawrieColby RasmusEdwin EncarnacionAdam Lind
Kelly JohnsonYunel EscobarJeff MathisAnthony Gose

Bench

Yan GomesOmar VizquelDavid CooperMoises Sierra

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04-04-2012, 09:44 PM
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24 image per post limit means that there's a bit of overflow from post #1

Roster overflow
A. Hechavarria

Non-Players
Alex AnthopoulosJohn FarrellAce


DL

Brandon MorrowKyle DrabekDrew HutchisonSergio SantosDustin McGowan
Jason FrasorLuis PerezJ.P. ArencibiaJose Bautista
Minors
Joel CarrenoEvan CrawfordJesse ChavezBrett Cecil


"Fun" variants

Laura FrasorAlex Anthopoulos2The Rally CrabRally Crab v2Man in White
August Wallpapers


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08-02-2012, 05:24 PM
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Stop signs are for quitters: the Moises Sierra story

August Wallpapers
1920x1080
Brett LawrieCasey Janssen'92 Jays
1680x1050
Brett LawrieCasey Janssen'92 Jays

1600x900

Brett LawrieCasey Janssen'92 Jays


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08-02-2012, 05:31 PM
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What happens if it is deserved? Some people have dumb opinions and make other people dumber by actually thinking there is any merit to their post.

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08-02-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Putting all the front-end stuff back in a minute. Carry on from last thread with a short proviso:

After the way the last thread went in its wind-down period, there will be no tolerance for flaming this time around. You attack someone, you're out of the thread.
So I can't insult you? Damn it Nem.

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08-02-2012, 05:35 PM
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To go on what Nasty Nazem said towards the end there quoting me...


That is a good point, I did not realize that acquiring Lee of waivers would also require giving them assets. In which case, you're right, **** that. I thought it was like the Rios situation, where he's there to be had by anyone who's willing to eat that salary in full.

Again, I want to reiterate, my frustration is not with the direction of this franchise. Aside with some of the boneheaded bullpen decisions Farrell makes too often, I believe that from the GM down, this organization is in phenomenal shape, the best in all my year of being a Jays fan (I was only 3 years old in '93 so that doesn't count).

My issue is with what happens above AA, the ownership. Constantly telling him not to give anyone more than 5 year contracts, and not giving him the financial flexibility to turn this 5-10 year rebuild into a 2-3 year rebuild. You guys realize that it is possible to rebuild the farm AND sign high quality free agents at the same time right...

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08-02-2012, 05:36 PM
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How much would a Jason Vargas or Justin Masterson cost? Anyway no one here is suggesting on selling the farm like ryno said but trading 1 or 2 of our top prospects would still leave us with a top 10 farm and a chance for 2013.

I'm not suggesting trading our top prospect for vargas or masterson, I'm just asking what their value is I think they would be good #3 guys in the rotation (Masterson's groundball stuff is perfectly suited to playing in Rogers homerun pad ballpark). Although I guess seattle would want at least a niccolino in the deal?

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08-02-2012, 05:36 PM
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Osuna line for today in Vancouver.



Vancouver Canadians
Player IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Roberto Osuna 3.0 6 4 3 2 4 0 3.38

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08-02-2012, 05:39 PM
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What happens if it is deserved? Some people have dumb opinions and make other people dumber by actually thinking there is any merit to their post.
The rules state you can critique an opinion but not attack a poster. Also a post that doesn't agree with the general opinion (as long as there are facts and not just disagreeing to cause trouble) does not equal trolling or being generally stupid.

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08-02-2012, 05:41 PM
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My issue is with what happens above AA, the ownership. Constantly telling him not to give anyone more than 5 year contracts, and not giving him the financial flexibility to turn this 5-10 year rebuild into a 2-3 year rebuild. You guys realize that it is possible to rebuild the farm AND sign high quality free agents at the same time right...
This is a Pat Gillick rule. AA has said himself that 6+ year deals almost always end badly for the team and he's right. Super long term deals almost never work out for the team.

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08-02-2012, 05:44 PM
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What happens if it is deserved? Some people have dumb opinions and make other people dumber by actually thinking there is any merit to their post.
Nobody "deserves" to be publicly attacked for their opinions no matter how much you might disagree with them or no matter how wrong you think they are. If you have a problem with what someone wrote, you take it apart on its merits (or lack thereof). If the opinion is truly as stupid as you believe it is, it shouldn't be that hard to pull it apart and expose its flaws.

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08-02-2012, 05:45 PM
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nem, i love that you're missing avatars for 8/13 pitchers. Says a lot about the current situation.

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08-02-2012, 05:48 PM
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nem, i love that you're missing avatars for 8/13 pitchers. Says a lot about the current situation.
I should've had ones for Cecil and Laffey a while ago, I just got hung up and haven't made any since probably the end of May or early June (except for Sierra).

The 6 guys in teh bullpen do absolutely speak to the turnover that's occurred there though.

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08-02-2012, 06:00 PM
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Lol, so whats so outrageous about trading a few of our top prospects for some help now (well 2013 since this season is toast) while JB is still in his prime and Morrow, EE and Romero are still signed in affordable contracts? I dont wanna waste this 4 players just so we can wait for the lansing trio to fill their role and keep this team to a .500 record.

Also whats wrong with criticizing Roger's unwillingness to spend? If Rogers gave AA some salary relief do you think he would have gotten the Happ package instead of Wandy? You have to be one horrible GM to pick the package we got over a proven #3/borderline#2 starter, which AA is not.
Theres nothing wrong with it and even AA himself said this is the type of move he hopes to make now that he feels comfortable with the depth in the minors.

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08-02-2012, 06:01 PM
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To go on what Nasty Nazem said towards the end there quoting me...


That is a good point, I did not realize that acquiring Lee of waivers would also require giving them assets. In which case, you're right, **** that. I thought it was like the Rios situation, where he's there to be had by anyone who's willing to eat that salary in full.

Again, I want to reiterate, my frustration is not with the direction of this franchise. Aside with some of the boneheaded bullpen decisions Farrell makes too often, I believe that from the GM down, this organization is in phenomenal shape, the best in all my year of being a Jays fan (I was only 3 years old in '93 so that doesn't count).

My issue is with what happens above AA, the ownership. Constantly telling him not to give anyone more than 5 year contracts, and not giving him the financial flexibility to turn this 5-10 year rebuild into a 2-3 year rebuild. You guys realize that it is possible to rebuild the farm AND sign high quality free agents at the same time right...
It is the same situation as Rios. If we claim him, we cam work out a trade. If that doesn't happen and Philly wants to get rid of him they can give him and all his $96million/4yrs to the jays. Or they can pull him from waivers and keep him, but they wouldn't be able to trade him for the rest of the year. Personally I'd be fine with a claim, even if we had to take on his whole salary, since Rogers had already budgeted that money for wells previously, but ideally you make a fair trade where the phillies eat 28-32 million off the contract and we give them real prospects in return. Something like Alvarez, Nicolino and another decent prospect for Lee and a mid level prospect if they eat salary?

And there's been no problems with AA going after high profile FAs, it's just that they haven't wanted to play here or priced themselves outta his comfort zone. Signing a prince fielder looks decent now, but 6-7 years down the line it'll be a scary contract.

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08-02-2012, 06:02 PM
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Lol, so whats so outrageous about trading a few of our top prospects for some help now (well 2013 since this season is toast) while JB is still in his prime and Morrow, EE and Romero are still signed in affordable contracts? I dont wanna waste this 4 players just so we can wait for the lansing trio to fill their role and keep this team to a .500 record.

Also whats wrong with criticizing Roger's unwillingness to spend? If Rogers gave AA some salary relief do you think he would have gotten the Happ package instead of Wandy? You have to be one horrible GM to pick the package we got over a proven #3/borderline#2 starter, which AA is not.
Are you all oblivious to the fact we spent significant money to retain Morrow, Romero, Bautista and Encarnacion or is that an inconvenient fact in your cheap rant? Poor teams would turn around and deal those players for more prospects to keep costs down.

Edit: In total for Lind, Romero, Escobar, Morrow, Bautista, Encarnacion and Janssen the Jays have signed them for a combined $199.5 Million of guaranteed money.

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08-02-2012, 06:09 PM
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Are you all oblivious to the fact we spent significant money to retain Morrow, Romero, Bautista and Encarnacion or is that an inconvenient fact in your cheap rant? Poor teams would turn around and deal those players for more prospects to keep costs down.
And yet the Jays still have a bottom 10 payroll.

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08-02-2012, 06:10 PM
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Lol, so whats so outrageous about trading a few of our top prospects for some help now (well 2013 since this season is toast) while JB is still in his prime and Morrow, EE and Romero are still signed in affordable contracts? I dont wanna waste this 4 players just so we can wait for the lansing trio to fill their role and keep this team to a .500 record.

Also whats wrong with criticizing Roger's unwillingness to spend? If Rogers gave AA some salary relief do you think he would have gotten the Happ package instead of Wandy? You have to be one horrible GM to pick the package we got over a proven #3/borderline#2 starter, which AA is not.
Ugh. is it really so hard to right Bautista? I can at least understand while some people don't right Anthopolous (even though there's an entire league denoted by AA), but really? JB? Bautista. Jose Bautista. It's not that hard. /rant


Is it NECESSARILY Roger's unwillingness to spend, or is it more the fact that the contracts out there are too long and risky for our purposes? Darvish would have been nice, but he got a HUGE contract. If we paid what Texas paid for Darvish, he would have been the highest paid pitcher on our roster. What kind of message does that send to Romero and Morrow? "Listen guys, I know you've been great for us in the MLB this past season or two, but we're gonna give more money to a younger kid that has never pitched in North America. I hope you will re-sign with us when you're contracts are up!".

As for Fielder...the dude was signed up to his late 30s. The guy is young now, but look at him ONCE and try to convince me that his body will hold up until he's 35. That's A LOT of weight on those knees.

I don't think it's as simple as saying "Roger's won't give Anthopolous the money!". I think it's more the fact that there hasn't been a sensible investment on the market. The closest thing to a sensible investment was Darvish, but you can bet your ass that signing Darvish would have set an unreal precedent for Romero and Morrow to negotiate their contracts against. I'd rather have Morrow and Romero on team-friendly contracts than just Darvish. I doubt you could have had both.

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08-02-2012, 06:11 PM
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To go on what Nasty Nazem said towards the end there quoting me...


That is a good point, I did not realize that acquiring Lee of waivers would also require giving them assets. In which case, you're right, **** that. I thought it was like the Rios situation, where he's there to be had by anyone who's willing to eat that salary in full.
The waivers mean nothing because they are recovable waivers. You claim someone, let's see Lee for example and assume Jays did it. Phillies can just pull him back the first time and keep him. If they put him on waivers again and he gets claimed by any team, he goes to the claimed team. DBacks could put Justin Upton on waivers and it means absolutely nothing because teams just do it to gauge interest. Pretty much all the players go through waivers but sometimes leaks get out and the media makes a big deal that this player in on waivers. A lot of time you don't even hear about guys clearing waivers until they get traded (don't think I read Hill or KJ cleared waivers last year) but usually the guys that clear waivers have a big contract or the players that aren't that good and overpaid or just depth players.

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08-02-2012, 06:13 PM
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And yet the Jays still have a bottom 10 payroll.
Bottom 10 in payroll means nothing right now. It's about investments in the future.

Hey we lost on that Tyler Beede kid we drafted a few years ago because he didn't like our contract offer. We should DEFINITELY go back and offer him a 15-year contract worth $195M. ....

...stupid contracts may turn you into a high-payroll team, but they are still stupid contracts. Have you never heard of Carl Pavano???

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08-02-2012, 06:17 PM
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Ugh. is it really so hard to right Bautista? I can at least understand while some people don't right Anthopolous (even though there's an entire league denoted by AA), but really? JB? Bautista. Jose Bautista. It's not that hard. /rant


Is it NECESSARILY Roger's unwillingness to spend, or is it more the fact that the contracts out there are too long and risky for our purposes? Darvish would have been nice, but he got a HUGE contract. If we paid what Texas paid for Darvish, he would have been the highest paid pitcher on our roster. What kind of message does that send to Romero and Morrow? "Listen guys, I know you've been great for us in the MLB this past season or two, but we're gonna give more money to a younger kid that has never pitched in North America. I hope you will re-sign with us when you're contracts are up!".

As for Fielder...the dude was signed up to his late 30s. The guy is young now, but look at him ONCE and try to convince me that his body will hold up until he's 35. That's A LOT of weight on those knees.

I don't think it's as simple as saying "Roger's won't give Anthopolous the money!". I think it's more the fact that there hasn't been a sensible investment on the market. The closest thing to a sensible investment was Darvish, but you can bet your ass that signing Darvish would have set an unreal precedent for Romero and Morrow to negotiate their contracts against. I'd rather have Morrow and Romero on team-friendly contracts than just Darvish. I doubt you could have had both.
I said in the my earlier post that Wandy woulda been a good investment. Of course Darvish wouldn't be, rangers overpaid.

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08-02-2012, 06:18 PM
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The waivers mean nothing because they are recovable waivers. You claim someone, let's see Lee for example and assume Jays did it. Phillies can just pull him back the first time and keep him. If they put him on waivers again and he gets claimed by any team, he goes to the claimed team. DBacks could put Justin Upton on waivers and it means absolutely nothing because teams just do it to gauge interest. Pretty much all the players go through waivers but sometimes leaks get out and the media makes a big deal that this player in on waivers. A lot of time you don't even hear about guys clearing waivers until they get traded (don't think I read Hill or KJ cleared waivers last year) but usually the guys that clear waivers have a big contract or the players that aren't that good and overpaid or just depth players.
To expand on this, Rios was an irregularity in that he actually WAS claimed, and Anthopolous let him go. Being claimed on it's own is rare, and it's even rarer that a team lets him go.

It has been written about a lot....nearly every player goes through waivers at this time of the year. It's basically the GMs asking the rest of the league "Is this a good contract? Would you take this contract if you could?". I'm willing to bet that all sorts of high-profile names like Gonzalez, Crawford, Jeter, Rodriguez, Mauer, Morneau, Dunn, Upton, Upton, Fielder, Tulowitzki, Lincecum, etc. etc. have been on the trade-waivers this year and past years. The GM's around the league are basically trying to validate their own players' values.

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08-02-2012, 06:21 PM
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Jays should sign Josh Hamilton to a 10 year 250 million dollar deal.

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08-02-2012, 06:21 PM
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Bottom 10 in payroll means nothing right now. It's about investments in the future.

Hey we lost on that Tyler Beede kid we drafted a few years ago because he didn't like our contract offer. We should DEFINITELY go back and offer him a 15-year contract worth $195M. ....

...stupid contracts may turn you into a high-payroll team, but they are still stupid contracts. Have you never heard of Carl Pavano???
So I guess we shouldn't sign or trade for players with big contracts anymore because they might turn out to be the next Carl Pavano? You have to take risk thats the beauty in baseball signings and trade for every Pavano there is at least 2 CJ wilson out there in the FA or in trades.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting signing a player to a 25 mill per salary but signing a guy like Garza (hypothetically speaking lets say his a FA this offseason) for something like 13mill per would be pretty nice, if he ends up going elsewhere then fine but at least this shows that Rogers are willing to take the next step.

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08-02-2012, 06:23 PM
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So I guess we shouldn't sign or trade for players with big contracts anymore because they might turn out to be the next Carl Pavano? You have to take risk thats the beauty in baseball signings and trade for every Pavano there is at least 2 CJ wilson out there in the FA or in trades.
Encarnacion was a risk. Unproven player locked up for 5-years. That's a risk I'm willing to take.


It's not about NOT taking risks. It's about taking smart risks. Fielder for 15 years is not a smart risk. Hamilton for 10 years is not a smart risk.

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