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Rick Nash+S.Delisle+cond. 3rd to NYR for Dubinsky+Anisimov+Erixon+2013 1st (Part III)

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08-03-2012, 03:01 PM
  #151
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The thing that always worries me a little, especially on these boards, is that we tend to fall very hard for the hard working, gritty types.

And it's not to say that they aren't very good, or even great player. But we always seem to elevate them beyond that even.

When I see Callahan and Gaborik, I see to guys who fit their respective roles for this club. Gaborik isn't the guy to set the tone for this team, Callahan isn't the guy who should be asked to carry the offense.

This team is significantly less dynamic when either is not in the lineup.

With that said, Callahan is a very good player. But let's not make him something he is not.

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08-03-2012, 03:03 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I have said ti before, I love Callahan, but his style of play is VERY similar to a young Chris Drury's. They are practically identical players. There bodies break down sooner rather than later due to the style they play and the size of their bodies.
Yep. The similarities are very apparent. I think Drury had some bad luck with his knees, but he definitely broke down quickly.

However, both players are great two-way, complimentary forwards. 25-30 goals, 50-60 points, best paired with higher skill players.

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08-03-2012, 03:18 PM
  #153
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He isn't as smart as Callahan. I think it's an extreme stretch to claim that a recently drafted player is going to come in and replace our captain, arguably the most important forward on this team.
Gaborik isn't as smart, perhaps in terms of overall game. Gaborik is a very smart player in the offensive zone. He gets in position to score goals and constantly creates chances, which is why he was 2nd only to Richards in assists for the team. Callahan has very little offensive creativity in the offensive zone compared to Gaborik.

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You'd honestly take Gaborik over Callahan? Look, Gaborik is a fine player, that much is objective, but Callahan is more integral to the way this team plays. On the short term, Callahan at $5M is better than Gaborik $7M+. If your concern about Callahan is sustaining his goal and point totals, again, he'll be about the same age Drury was when he signed here. Drury had two excellent seasons here, and had little to no help offensively. Callahan will have more support than Drury did. Even if he does break down after two years, a) he'll be on a short term deal and b) smarts don't decrease with the breakdown of his physical skills. Even if he breaks down, he'll still be a 20 goal, all-situations player. As I said before, though, I think Callahan can be a Shane Doan type. He isn't as big but he plays a style more similar to his than Drury's.
Doan and Callahan aren't comparable in my eyes, while Drury and Callahan are carbon-copies of each other. Doan is more of a powerforward that used his size for puck protection and dominating board play. A closer comparable to Doan would be Nash, although Nash has more natural talent. Drury and Callahan on the other hand were both heart and soul players, tremendous leaders and great teammates. Both were determined individuals that wanted to win, however the aggressiveness on the forecheck, shotblocking and battling in front of the net with a small size frame by NHL standards led the decline for Drury since his body couldn't take it, and I expect the same with Callahan. I'd be very weary of signing him for more than 2 yrs after this contract.

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Callahan was on pace for 30 goals last year and had 29 in 77 this year. Drury had a 37 goal season on an offensive powerhouse in a year where PPs were handed out like candy, on a team with one of the most dangerous power plays in the league. Callahan has been on teams with average at best PPs and he still finishes with 9-13 goals. I think Callahan is smarter offensively than Drury, and a better playmaker, too.
Drury was an integral part of those stacked offense-oriented Sabres teams, hence his high point totals. Yes there were more powerplays during 05-06 and 06-07, but this doesn't mean Drury was the inferior offensive talent. Drury was a very talented college player in Boston University, won the Calder, won the Stanley Cup with stacked Colorado Avalanche and played in three Oympic Games. I have a hard time believing Callahan was the better offensive player, again, his point totals should be higher. He hasn't even broken 60 pts yet. 37 goals is also very good for anyone not named Ovechkin, Callahan hasn't been that close.

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That means nothing.
Sure it means something. I know I'm going to get the Matt Gilroy response, but winning the Hobey Baker is a nice award to add to your resume when you look at the end of your career. He was the best college player and had a very successful NHL career. Callahan's only award resume consists of the Steve MacDonald Extra Effort Award.

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That I'll concede to, but, again, Drury was playing with players like Sakic, Bourque, and Forsberg. He's always had some of the best supporting casts in the league (well, until he hit the Rangers). Callahan needs to produce more in the playoffs, but up until this year he was never on a "favorite". Drury didn't exactly light it up in the playoffs with us.
You can call Drury lucky for playing on good teams, but he was an integral part of both the Avs and especially the Sabres.

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Previous pedigree? Yeah, that's obviously a part of the equation when giving a lucrative contract. It depends on what he's done in 12-13 and 13-14. I doubt he produces anything less than 20-25 goals, which is worth the $5M with what else he brings.
Right, but you likely won't be getting the Callahan of today when you approach the later part of a long term deal.

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Sykora is coming off a season in which he scored 40 points and 20 goals. The best season he's had in the past 5 years is a 63 point season in 07-08. You'd give that type of production more money than Callahan?
No, I never said that. I'm just saying that Gaborik has the smarts to stay in the league well past his prime. He'll still be a scoring threat late in his career. And I said this is probably the worst case scenario for Gabby, which the downside of it isn't as catastrophic is it may be with paying a Chris Drury-type. He doesn't rely on his physical talents or the forecheck to create offense. He has a great shot and makes smart passes out there.

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Gaborik has a significantly more extensive history than Callahan. Callahan isn't exactly an ironman, but he's more nicks and bruises than anything. His foot was broken on a Chara slapshot, and his hand was broken on a Letang slapshot. I don't think these types of things make him injury prone, just reckless, which I think a player as smart as Callahan will recognize may not be best for his future. He can adjust, and he seemed to put himself into safer, yet just as effective positions this year.
Broken foot, broken hand, nick and bruises, these will all add up when his legs get worn out from all that aggressive physical type of playing style.

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No, players like Callahan are few and far in between. He's blanketed with terms like "grinder" and deemed "replaceable" because of it, which is ********. A player who makes as much of an impact in every facet of the game as Callahan does on a shift by shift basis is not easy to find. Who knows if Gaborik's shot even holds up that long? There's a significantly greater chance that Callahan is in a better position health wise at that point than Gaborik, who I don't question will be a very good player until the twilight years as long as he is relatively healthy, but you don't trade your captain and identity for a one dimensional offensive player. Nash and Kreider will be there to score the goals. With the loss of Dubinsky, it appears only JT Miller would have a chance to make even a remotely similar impact as Callahan does, and I doubt he's as consistent and balls-to-the-wall as Callahan. Good young player, but you don't expect him to replace Callahan. That's asinine.
Why not? I think Miller is very underrated. He was a top draft pick and plays an aggressive physical style of game (Kesler-lite) while bringing size and speed. Perhaps I am a bit higher on him than everyone else, but I expect him to be a two-way force out there when he gets experience. Sure it won't be easy, but like I said, it's easier to replace a 20-25g grinder type than a prolific goal scorer. I think it's equally as silly to suggest Chris Krieder will 'replace' Gaborik's goal scoring.


Last edited by Kershaw: 08-03-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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08-03-2012, 03:22 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
thought miller was already replacing dubi and anisimov lol
I don't think so yet. Perhaps mid-way through the season if he does well in the AHL.

We'll see how he does in training camp.

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08-03-2012, 03:24 PM
  #155
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Here's how I see it.

Gaborik is an elite player, but compared to many other elite players, he doesn't bring nearly as much to the table.

Callahan is not an elite player. He's a gritty, two-way forward who can chip in offense. If you compare him to elite players, he's less valuable. If you compare him to other gritty, two-way forwards, though, he brings a lot more to the table than most of them.


Callahan is better/more valuable at his role than Gaborik is at his. How many guys possess all of the qualities Callahan brings to the table? How many two-way forwards would you take over Callahan?

Gaborik has one valuable quality: goal-scoring. He does that better than most guys. But compared to others of his pay grade and talent level, there are a number of better options.

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08-03-2012, 03:25 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
The thing that always worries me a little, especially on these boards, is that we tend to fall very hard for the hard working, gritty types.

And it's not to say that they aren't very good, or even great player. But we always seem to elevate them beyond that even.

When I see Callahan and Gaborik, I see to guys who fit their respective roles for this club. Gaborik isn't the guy to set the tone for this team, Callahan isn't the guy who should be asked to carry the offense.

This team is significantly less dynamic when either is not in the lineup.

With that said, Callahan is a very good player. But let's not make him something he is not.
Exactly. He's a 2nd line player. These types of players can be replaced much more easily than 40g scorers.

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08-03-2012, 03:26 PM
  #157
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FWIW, I would choose a still young Callahan over an over 30 Gaborik if push came to shove. But once Callahan gets over 30 or 31, all bets are off.

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08-03-2012, 03:26 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
The whole Johnny Malkin jokes are getting pretty old. The guy was a good player, it's just that people made him out to be a scapegoat.
No. He really wasn't. He was a borderline NHLer.

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08-03-2012, 03:30 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
If they need a cap casualty, it HAS TO be Gaborik.

He will be 31-32 and hasn't been able to stay healthy through his career.

They could trade him and get some valuable assets in return.
Been saying this since before the deadline.

Getting Nash then would have given the Rangers two legit shots at the cup before we had to really start making tough roster decisions.

When teams have strong developmental systems, in capped worlds, they tend to run into these problems.

Gaborik WILL be traded at the draft next year and we will get a 1st+ for him. This will help recoup the 1st traded in the Nash deal and ease the financial burden in resigning guys like McDonagh, Stepan, Hagelin and Sauer.

It's the 2 summers from now that really has me worried.

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi are all UFA's and Kreider is an RFA


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08-03-2012, 03:31 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
That's going to continue to be something to watch. Callahan strikes me as the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long type.

It's not a knock on him, it's just a result of his style of play.
And you have burned so very, very brightly Roy.

Hopefully Cally's prime lasts much longer than the NEXUS-6.

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08-03-2012, 03:33 PM
  #161
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No. He really wasn't. He was a borderline NHLer.
Perhaps he is. But he did fine for his role. He at least made the 4th line better with his ability to bail out Rupp/Bickel/Eminger/Prust by being the only one who can possess the puck out of our own zone.

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08-03-2012, 03:34 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Been saying this since before the deadline.

Getting Nash then would have given the Rangers two legit shots at the cup before we had to really start making tough roster decisions.

When teams have strong developmental systems, in capped worlds, they tend to run into these problems.

Gaborik WILL be traded at the deadline next year and we will get a 1st+ for him. This will help recoup the 1st traded in the Nash deal and ease the financial burden in resigning guys like McDonagh, Stepan, Hagelin and Sauer.

It's the 2 summers from now that really has me worried.

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi are all UFA's and Kreider is an RFA
Strange that you would be so certain of that when it's much more probable he won't be dealt.

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08-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Been saying this since before the deadline.

Getting Nash then would have given the Rangers two legit shots at the cup before we had to really start making tough roster decisions.

When teams have strong developmental systems, in capped worlds, they tend to run into these problems.

Gaborik WILL be traded at the deadline next year and we will get a 1st+ for him. This will help recoup the 1st traded in the Nash deal and ease the financial burden in resigning guys like McDonagh, Stepan, Hagelin and Sauer.

It's the 2 summers from now that really has me worried.

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi are all UFA's and Kreider is an RFA
So we're gonna trade a key offensive piece right before the playoffs? Are you kidding me?? Wow...

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08-03-2012, 03:44 PM
  #164
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So we're gonna trade a key offensive piece right before the playoffs? Are you kidding me?? Wow...
You get the best of both worlds. You get the bulk of his cap hit for the season, and you don't get him for the playoffs. What could be better?

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08-03-2012, 03:44 PM
  #165
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So we're gonna trade a key offensive piece right before the playoffs? Are you kidding me?? Wow...
yeah, only way that happens is if the rangers absolutely BOMB to start off this season...and with Henrik, MCD, Staal, Girardi, Richards, and Nash i just don't see that happening.

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08-03-2012, 03:55 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Strange that you would be so certain of that when it's much more probable he won't be dealt.
He's going to get traded.

Not because I don't want him. Not because I don't like him. I do and I do.

It's going to be a pure salary move.

When you have important assets like McDonagh, Stepan and Hagelin looking for new deals followed a summer later by more important players like Hank, Cally, Girardi and Kreider in the summer of 2014 you have to make tough decisions on older, higher salaried oft injured players.

It's the most logical decision.

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08-03-2012, 03:55 PM
  #167
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So we're gonna trade a key offensive piece right before the playoffs? Are you kidding me?? Wow...
My bad.

I mean the Draft

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08-03-2012, 05:11 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
He's going to get traded.

Not because I don't want him. Not because I don't like him. I do and I do.

It's going to be a pure salary move.

When you have important assets like McDonagh, Stepan and Hagelin looking for new deals followed a summer later by more important players like Hank, Cally, Girardi and Kreider in the summer of 2014 you have to make tough decisions on older, higher salaried oft injured players.

It's the most logical decision.
Just to be clear...you are saying that without question, the Rangers will be trading Marian Gaborik prior to the June 2013 NHL draft.

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08-03-2012, 05:40 PM
  #169
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hahaha wow...

Yeah, see that's not typically how you win the Cup...by trading one of your best players at the deadline. See, that would mean we were SELLERS.

Wait, why am I even addressing something so ridiculous? haha

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08-03-2012, 05:50 PM
  #170
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hahaha wow...

Yeah, see that's not typically how you win the Cup...by trading one of your best players at the deadline. See, that would mean we were SELLERS.

Wait, why am I even addressing something so ridiculous? haha
He revised his statement to state that Gaborik will be traded before the draft, not the deadline. Either way, quite unlikely.

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08-03-2012, 05:53 PM
  #171
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after this yr they dont HAVE to deal Gaborik, they can sign their RFAs and then see where the cap is at. Although I do think this is the yr to win the cup given the cap

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08-03-2012, 05:59 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
You get the best of both worlds. You get the bulk of his cap hit for the season, and you don't get him for the playoffs. What could be better?
Ha. The only way the Rangers trade Gaborik is if the 2013-2014 season is an unmitigated disaster. Anyone who would suggest it either:

1. hate Gaborik and his 40 goals
2. don't realize that we are contenders now
3. are consumed with the neverending quest for "young assets" even moreso than the NHL roster

Most likely scenario is that they dont re-sign Gaborik and use the capspace to sign their free agents and another solid free agent.

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08-03-2012, 06:13 PM
  #173
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So the rangers would trade gaborik at the deadline in 2014 while theyre in the middle of a playoff run where they'll probably go deep in the playoffs just because he's gona be a UFA?

C'mon guys the lack of news and summer heat are getting to some of your heads.

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08-03-2012, 06:30 PM
  #174
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LOL, I'm not even sure who we'll be aiming for at this trade deadline and you guys are already onto who we'll ship out next deadline.

A lot can change in two years. A LOT.

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08-03-2012, 06:33 PM
  #175
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LOL, I'm not even sure who we'll be aiming for at this trade deadline and you guys are already onto who we'll ship out next deadline.

A lot can change in two years. A LOT.
I don't know, I'm looking at the 2016 UFA crop, could be some very enticing rentals available. That is the year, I think.

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