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Old
07-24-2012, 03:39 PM
  #176
No Fun Shogun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
First..ahhh yes it is what you said "Using that logic, then no league should be involved in suspensions of players or coaches that break the law/their variants of personal conduct policies.
Right, and here's what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I disagree. The NCAA isn't the one that should be sending the message, the criminal justice system is the one that should be sending a message. The NCAA has always been a joke in my mind, and their involvement makes light of the gravity of the situation.
See the disconnect? You flat out said that the NCAA should be involved because the criminal justice system was involved and that their involvement is making light of the situation.

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And yes I know, all of those involved should burn. The problem is you cannot understand how to separate people from the program, and the NCAA is sanctioning those who were not involved.
Joe Paterno was the Penn State football program, as readily evident by the cult of personality that's still defending him, and the actions of everyone involved in the cover-up revolved around their desire to protect the public image of the football program over the well being of children.

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The NCAA's purpose is to create a level playing field in athletics. This is indirectly related to athletics. Members of the football program were involved, that's it. No cheating, no paying kids, none of that other stupid stuff the NCAA likes to sanction people for. Which is also why I thought that their involvement kind of made light of the situation. They deal with absolutely ridiculous things like people buying players clothes, and the majority of people think that most of their rulings are a complete joke when you take into account how much money they make off of these kids.... This situation is so far beyond them
No, the NCAA's purpose is to create a series of uniform rules and enforcement standards to keep collegiate athletics relatively uniform, stable, safe, and effective throughout the land. Penn State continuously allowed a rapist to operate on their grounds and gave the entire NCAA a black eye by their failure to be responsible human beings.

This is unprecedented territory, because what Penn State did was unprecedented.

Quote:
Furthermore, from the article you ignored: "This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."

There's a difference, but the NCAA has already set a precedent with this judgement, as the person who was formerly the chair of the NCAA Investigation Committee said.
So the opinion of one person binds the NCAA from future action? Riiiiight....

Quote:
Also:http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...ges/56372428/1

If he was abusing boys on campus, then chances are someone would have known about it.
And if there's evidence of a cover-up, then Syracuse should absolutely get hammered, too. That's the difference, no evidence of a cover-up at Syracuse as of yet, while there is substantial evidence of one at Penn State.

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My entire point to this entire stupid debate is that innocent people should not be suffering. There are ways to affect the school, and the program with still keeping in mind the fact that the students, the players, and the majority of the coaches are completely innocent.
Okay.... what should've they done to change the institution of football above all else that existed at Penn State, their allowance to have a complete lack of oversight over Paterno and the football program, and ultimately send a message that such inaction moving forward is completely intolerable?

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If the CEO and CFO are stealing money, they go to jail. The SEC doesn't take away the employees retirement plans and benefits. You know why? Because it doesn't make any damn sense to make people who had nothing to do with the situation pay for the crimes of other.
Yes, because giving students the chance to transfer without punishment = employees get robbed.

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The NCAA is concerned about what they'd look like if they did nothing.
Maybe, but at least their concern for their public image lead them to actually do something, versus Penn State's decision to just stick their heads in the sand.

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You still do not get the point.

I'm just going to leave it at this:

I think that the people who committed these crimes should pay, and pay dearly. However, I don't believe the students, athletes, and prospective athletes should be made to suffer because of a handful of spineless, egocentric individuals.

You think the school should pay, and pay dearly, and whatever students are affected are collateral damage.

So can we just agree to disagree.
Exactly, we disagree, and we agree to disagree, and I just for the life of me don't see how someone could just sit and pretend that the NCAA doing nothing would be appropriate in this circumstance. Vacating your wins may be meaningless, but vacating your responsibilities as a university, as Penn State did, or athletics organization, as the NCAA didn't, is not acceptable.

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Old
07-24-2012, 04:27 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Right, and here's what you said:

See the disconnect? You flat out said that the NCAA should be involved because the criminal justice system was involved and that their involvement is making light of the situation.

Joe Paterno was the Penn State football program, as readily evident by the cult of personality that's still defending him, and the actions of everyone involved in the cover-up revolved around their desire to protect the public image of the football program over the well being of children.
No I don't see the disconnect. How does my thinking that the NCAA, an organization that routinely makes a mockery of itself, being involved in this makes light of this situation, lead you to think I'm saying no league should suspend a player based on illegal conduct?

If someone gets caught smoking pot or some other minor offense, and they get suspended by the league that's fine because there's not really any legal punishment from something like that. However, this is far worse, and heavy legal repercussions for those involved should definitely be there.

Also thinking Paterno was the football program is the problem. I know he "was" the football program, but he really wasn't the football program. He's dead and there's still a football program. You fall into the same line of thinking as the people you're talking about. You can't separate him from the program. The program is perpetual, the coach is finite.

The coach deserved punishment, as did the pervert, and the people who covered it up. The program didn't cover anything up. The program is inanimate. It's now run by different, hopefully better people.

The people were the problem. If you and I were the President and AD things would have turned out differently wouldn't they?

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No, the NCAA's purpose is to create a series of uniform rules and enforcement standards to keep collegiate athletics relatively uniform, stable, safe, and effective throughout the land. Penn State continuously allowed a rapist to operate on their grounds and gave the entire NCAA a black eye by their failure to be responsible human beings.

This is unprecedented territory, because what Penn State did was unprecedented.

So the opinion of one person binds the NCAA from future action? Riiiiight....
And these rules deal with athletics, not criminal activity indirectly related to athletics. PSU in no way gave a black eye to the NCAA. Anyone who thinks that is incapable of being able to break things down, and see how something relates, or doesn't relate, to another.

Also, you the opinion of the former chair of the committee that handles investigations and sanctions means nothing?

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And if there's evidence of a cover-up, then Syracuse should absolutely get hammered, too. That's the difference, no evidence of a cover-up at Syracuse as of yet, while there is substantial evidence of one at Penn State.

Okay.... what should've they done to change the institution of football above all else that existed at Penn State, their allowance to have a complete lack of oversight over Paterno and the football program, and ultimately send a message that such inaction moving forward is completely intolerable?
After what happened to Penn State they have too. And then what? Where do they stop with regulating illegal on campus activities?

I'd hope the prosecution of every single person involved in this situation would send a message to PSU. Also, Penn State will never live this down, regardless of what the NCAA did. I also offered an idea earlier about the bowl games, which you took exception with.

I understand why the NCAA felt compelled to act. They have their public image to look after. However, in taking action they could have tried their best to spare the punishment of the athletes and students, which I don't think they did.

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Yes, because giving students the chance to transfer without punishment = employees get robbed.
Employees could find a new job if they wanted to, but if they stayed with the company they'd face the repercussions. Same exact thing.

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Maybe, but at least their concern for their public image lead them to actually do something, versus Penn State's decision to just stick their heads in the sand.
Ok? I'm not defending Penn State.

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Exactly, we disagree, and we agree to disagree, and I just for the life of me don't see how someone could just sit and pretend that the NCAA doing nothing would be appropriate in this circumstance. Vacating your wins may be meaningless, but vacating your responsibilities as a university, as Penn State did, or athletics organization, as the NCAA didn't, is not acceptable.
And I for the life of me will never understand how someone can think its ok that people who are innocent are the ones being made to pay by the NCAA.

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Old
07-24-2012, 05:22 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No I don't see the disconnect. How does my thinking that the NCAA, an organization that routinely makes a mockery of itself, being involved in this makes light of this situation, lead you to think I'm saying no league should suspend a player based on illegal conduct?

If someone gets caught smoking pot or some other minor offense, and they get suspended by the league that's fine because there's not really any legal punishment from something like that. However, this is far worse, and heavy legal repercussions for those involved should definitely be there.
First of all, what does the bolded have to do with anything?

Second, yeah, using your initial logic, that's exactly what you said. You said that the NCAA shouldn't be getting involved when there's a criminal prosecution going on and that their involvement makes light of the situation overall. Using the exclusionary logic you presented regarding why the NCAA shouldn't be messing with Penn State, the exact same argument could be made that any other league shouldn't have punished any number of players while they were in the process of receiving criminal investigations.

Quote:
Also thinking Paterno was the football program is the problem. I know he "was" the football program, but he really wasn't the football program. He's dead and there's still a football program. You fall into the same line of thinking as the people you're talking about. You can't separate him from the program. The program is perpetual, the coach is finite.
True, Penn State football will go on long after Paterno's gone, but that's kind of a key point. For decades, he has been the program, and Penn State allowed their enforcement and safety responsibilities to lax and decay as a direct result. This was an error that goes beyond the big four names brought up in the coverup, it's a system-wide breach of responsibility and failure in structure that needs to be repaired.

And from that....

Quote:
The coach deserved punishment, as did the pervert, and the people who covered it up. The program didn't cover anything up. The program is inanimate. It's now run by different, hopefully better people.
Here's hoping, but you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not, and neither was the NCAA. Until Penn State takes actual, appreciable steps showing that they have changed, are willing to put the well-being of others above the sanctity of Nittany Lion football, can actually hold members of their staff accountable in a timely fashion, and any number of other lessons that can be learned from this horror (and should've been known even without it), the entire program needs to be held accountable for that collective failure.

Penn State fans like to say "We are" a lot in overcoming the troubles ahead. That's nice and all, but that also falls down to facing the repercussions of the actions that were undertaken by a few individuals in power for the benefit of the organization at large and the lapse in organizational integrity and institutional control that goes well beyond just a handful of bad apples.

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The people were the problem. If you and I were the President and AD things would have turned out differently wouldn't they?
Hopefully, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote:
And these rules deal with athletics, not criminal activity indirectly related to athletics. PSU in no way gave a black eye to the NCAA. Anyone who thinks that is incapable of being able to break things down, and see how something relates, or doesn't relate, to another.
This is just your opinion, though. The NCAA disagreed and was of the opinion that Penn State's inaction gave them a black eye as well. That's the only thing that matters.

Quote:
Also, you the opinion of the former chair of the committee that handles investigations and sanctions means nothing?
Of course not, but it doesn't matter as much as the opinion of the folks actually in positions of power's opinion, as they're the ones that actually had to make the decision.

Quote:
After what happened to Penn State they have too. And then what? Where do they stop with regulating illegal on campus activities?
They stop where they've always stopped, when it's not longer an individual screwing up but the fault of the organization at large due to their own lack of institutional control. If it turns out that there was only one individual involved, then the university really can't be held accountable. If we're talking about multiple higher authority figures all working in concert to keep something hidden, then yeah.... fire away, NCAA.

Quote:
I'd hope the prosecution of every single person involved in this situation would send a message to PSU. Also, Penn State will never live this down, regardless of what the NCAA did. I also offered an idea earlier about the bowl games, which you took exception with.
True, I did take exception with it. It sounds nice and all, but ultimately all it does is say that failure to address a problem head on when it first arises and donating money after the fact sends the message that throwing money at a problem well after the fact is alright. That's not a message I want to send, unless it's coupled with the individuals in question being held accountable by the law (which is happening via the court system) and the university is held accountable for their failure to act appropriately (which is now happening because of the NCAA).

Quote:
I understand why the NCAA felt compelled to act. They have their public image to look after. However, in taking action they could have tried their best to spare the punishment of the athletes and students, which I don't think they did.
They gave student athletes the chance to transfer without punishment. That's all they can do while still giving Penn State a meaningful punishment.

Quote:
Employees could find a new job if they wanted to, but if they stayed with the company they'd face the repercussions. Same exact thing.

Ok? I'm not defending Penn State.

And I for the life of me will never understand how someone can think its ok that people who are innocent are the ones being made to pay by the NCAA.
I honestly think you're overestimating the negative repercussions that the innocent are experiencing here. What.... players don't get to play in a bowl game? They're free to transfer, and given the circus that the university's brought down on themselves, they'd probably be wise to do so even if the NCAA did nothing anyway.

Fans will get upset? Sorry, but tough. Fans getting sad shouldn't be the NCAA's concern when there's a massive problem that needs to be addressed, such as Penn State's now obvious history of their failure to self-police or keep things in perspective. That should've been Penn State's concern when they put their public image over the well-being of minors on-campus.

Who's really suffering here to an undue amount by the NCAA's actions? And honestly how?

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Old
07-27-2012, 07:04 AM
  #179
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"innocents" often suffer when management / elected officials **** up

Enron / Arthur Andersen
Lehman Brothers
Greek or other bad economies

at least the Penn State students are not really affected here, they don't list bowl games on the diploma

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07-27-2012, 07:26 AM
  #180
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Stolen from CBC's 'The Current':

The family of Joe Paterno is furious that his statue has been removed from outside the stadium.

They felt it would be more appropriate to leave the statue there but turn it around so it could, you know, look the other way.

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07-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #181
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also are they going to tear down the multi-million dollar library he donated?...wouldn't want something on campus be associated with him.

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07-27-2012, 12:03 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Stolen from CBC's 'The Current':

The family of Joe Paterno is furious that his statue has been removed from outside the stadium.

They felt it would be more appropriate to leave the statue there but turn it around so it could, you know, look the other way.
Must've been the 500th time I've heard that one...

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Old
08-03-2012, 04:16 PM
  #183
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http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/
Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

Earlier this afternoon, lawyers on behalf of the Joe Paterno family sent an official appeal letter to the NCAA relating to the sanctions levied against the Penn State football team.

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08-03-2012, 04:21 PM
  #184
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I can't wait to see the results of the family's own investigation.

Give me a break.

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08-03-2012, 04:22 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/
Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

Earlier this afternoon, lawyers on behalf of the Joe Paterno family sent an official appeal letter to the NCAA relating to the sanctions levied against the Penn State football team.
Can I file an appeal then? What the hell do the Paterno's have to do with this now. Penn State agreed to the terms and signed off on on them thus waiving the opportunity for appeals.

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08-03-2012, 04:25 PM
  #186
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I think they just don't want Paterno's wins vacated

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08-03-2012, 04:28 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Can I file an appeal then? What the hell do the Paterno's have to do with this now. Penn State agreed to the terms and signed off on on them thus waiving the opportunity for appeals.
Maybe this is to try and clear his name as much as possible so that his estate cant be sued in civil court?

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08-04-2012, 08:07 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/
Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

Earlier this afternoon, lawyers on behalf of the Joe Paterno family sent an official appeal letter to the NCAA relating to the sanctions levied against the Penn State football team.
They need to let it go. I understand Joe is their family and you want to protect him, etc., but at some point you need to move forward. There was an article on ESPN the other day talking about how if the Paterno's really care about this whole situation and all that went down and PSU and such, they would take the money they are paying their lawyers to clear Joe's name and donate it to charity. If JoePa truly is without fault in this situation, it will come out eventually (though I don't think he is).

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I can't wait to see the results of the family's own investigation.

Give me a break.
I know, it is going to be pretty funny. 2500 pages of how great JoePa was. "SEE! WE TOLD YOU HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!" Not like there will be any appearance of bias or anything.

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Old
08-04-2012, 10:32 AM
  #189
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I never post on the internet but I feel compelled to do so in this instance.

In regards to the Freeh report: The BOT paid an individual private investigator 6 million dollars to put what they wanted to hear into an "established" report. A report which is largely based on opinion, beliefs and speculation. The Freeh report "conclusively" proves that Joe Paterno was involved in the cover-up because of TWO emails. Neither of which ever mention is name or involvement. In fact, the total content of those emails spans a WHOLE two sentences.

The report also does not interview any primary witnesses. What kind of conclusive report doesn't have information directly from any primary witnessess? A report that mostly relies on speculation and assumptions. The Freeh report borders on fiction.

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