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Tocchet: Flyers D "Serviceable" but could be better

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Old
08-02-2012, 06:56 PM
  #26
Cromster
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I dunno. I remember Ference dragging him across the ice while he covered his face and laid there. I don't care if the guy ends up being the next Gordy Howe. He aint Flyer material in my book.

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08-02-2012, 07:06 PM
  #27
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There's a typo in the post above. It's technically a fishedit.

I think the D is decent enough to start the season with. Once injuries start to kick in I'd expect a trade. And serviceable is kind of obvious but unfair choice of words when you compare this D to the D we would have had if we got Weber. If Tocchet/Timmah analyzed the D a week before the Weber offer sheet I think his analysis would have a little bit more weight to it.

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08-02-2012, 07:25 PM
  #28
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There's a typo in the post above. It's technically a fishedit.
He doesn't know who he is anymore. Lost in the woods.

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08-02-2012, 07:33 PM
  #29
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theres 2 players in the NHL that i wouldnt want on the Flyers..

and Subban is in the group.. he and Cindy C.

they both play "*****" hockey.. drives me crazy.. i have Zero respect for either guy

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08-02-2012, 09:58 PM
  #30
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I hate the "we" argument, if we feel like a part of the team, don't hate. I fully support the usage of we.

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08-03-2012, 01:14 AM
  #31
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is there any legit evidence/proof that schenn has vision problems?

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08-03-2012, 01:19 AM
  #32
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is there any legit evidence/proof that schenn has vision problems?
no. just a baseless internet rumor.

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Old
08-03-2012, 05:18 AM
  #33
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Tocchet's analysis is exactly right. Large number of slightly above average or above average defenders, but no one elite DMan (Timo may have been elite at some pt, but those days are long past).

Unless one of Mesz or Coburn takes a giant step forward, this team will not go far in POs. I say one of those two because they are the only possibilities, they have the size and are the right age, and have mobility. The others:

1. Schenn is still too young, and has shown strong signs of being a stay at home hitter with little offensive instincts

2. Grossman IS a big stay at home guy, with little offensive upside

3. Timo is old and wearing down fast

Except for Coburn, I would trade any two of the above four to get a Dman who is a clear step above this quintet. Maybe a bit cautious about dumping Luke Schenn to avoid upsetting his brother. (btw this is why I dislike bringing brothers to the same team, you are stuck with both)

Or rather than trade, just get rid of any two to clear capspace after grabbing a more elite DMan (this is probably what we would have done if Weber had come here).

Yandle is worth any two of the above.


Last edited by rban*: 08-03-2012 at 05:24 AM.
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Old
08-03-2012, 10:57 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
This D can get us through the season but I'm not expecting much from the postseason, barring some surprises
We need good seasons from all of them, but it's still a pretty good group, with the added robustness we've all been looking for.

Given he isn't subject to waivers, Gus is going to have to be fantastic at camp to break with the team, further trades could change that.

You can never be sure how Lavy will do the pairings, but here are two options that result in what should be good pairs:

Grossmann-Coburn
Timonen-Schenn
Meszaros-Gervais/Bourdon

Or put Kimmo and Coby back together:

Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Schenn
Grossmann-Gervais/Bourdon - Gus might be a better fit here in a Swedish Twins pair

However configured, if we can remain relatively healthy and Schenn and Gervais step up like I think they will in a new environment, we're going to be fine.

I really trust Don Luce's judgement on talent, and McCarthy's a good D coach, so if Luke and Bruno are guys they like, I'm assuming they will succeed.

And you know Homer, if it isn't working out somehow, and we need a puck mover, he will get one before the deadline.

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08-03-2012, 01:20 PM
  #35
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I would give Subban an offer that requires 4 1sts as compensation. I'm higher on him then most on this board are though. I like his game, he's physical, he's offensively gifted and we have defensemen to cover up his defensive deficiencies until he can round out that part of his game. It's not like hes defensively incabable either.

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Old
08-03-2012, 06:02 PM
  #36
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We've got the single most underrated defense in the NHL now thanks to Bryzgalov and our injury-riddled postseason.

The reason it wasn't at the incredible level it was before when we turned Micheal Leighton into a good goalie is because we lacked Richards, Carter, and Pronger.

We still lack those, but as long as Bryzgalov doesn't re-emerge as the second coming of Leighton, we'll be fine. We've replaced Richards and Carter hopefully with a growing BSchenn and Couturier. We've replaced Pronger and Carle with Grossmann and LSchenn.

As long as Bryzgalov's head isn't up his ass, we'll be a top 10 defense fairly easily.



We'd have to go extreme if we want Subban.

7.00m/year over 8-9 years.

Is he worth that and four late 1st rounders to you?
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Right now? No. In a few years? Maybe.

Tis a condundrum.

Imagine if Subban became a UFA at this moment. Would you throw $80-$90 M at him? I would say absolutely. $7 M a season only seems like an extreme overpayment because we are used to seeing RFAs get undercompensated. But that's for Montreal to worry about.

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Old
08-03-2012, 06:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Imagine if Subban became a UFA at this moment. Would you throw $80-$90 M at him? I would say absolutely. $7 M a season only seems like an extreme overpayment because we are used to seeing RFAs get undercompensated. But that's for Montreal to worry about.
Then throw him a 7m/year offer sheet.

Maybe Montreal matches, maybe they don't.

If you're that convinced he's going to be a #1. Hell, maybe he can replace Timonen.

It bugs me though; the idea of bringing in a personality guy like that. Before Carter/Richards left, all the publicity we ever heard about the lockerroom was how much drama it was. A year removed, Jagr of all people talks about how awesome the atmosphere was.

It makes you think twice about the kind of guys you're bringing in.

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Old
08-03-2012, 06:48 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Then throw him a 7m/year offer sheet.

Maybe Montreal matches, maybe they don't.

If you're that convinced he's going to be a #1. Hell, maybe he can replace Timonen.

It bugs me though; the idea of bringing in a personality guy like that. Before Carter/Richards left, all the publicity we ever heard about the lockerroom was how much drama it was. A year removed, Jagr of all people talks about how awesome the atmosphere was.

It makes you think twice about the kind of guys you're bringing in.

Not only would the Habs match that, they would throw an offersheet at Giroux / Couts / Schenn / Schenn etc. at first opportunity. Offersheeting a team like the Habs (or Leafs or NYR or even Flyers) is a dangerous game and one in which you would likely get burned in retribution.

ps. Did you miss me Schafe?

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08-03-2012, 07:07 PM
  #39
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Not only would the Habs match that, they would throw an offersheet at Giroux / Couts / Schenn / Schenn etc. at first opportunity. Offersheeting a team like the Habs (or Leafs or NYR or even Flyers) is a dangerous game and one in which you would likely get burned in retribution.

ps. Did you miss me Schafe?
Throwing an offer sheet at Giroux or whoever is not a big deal, it would only matter if they signed it. Not to mention Holmgren should be smart enough to not let franchise players go unsigned into RFA

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08-03-2012, 07:13 PM
  #40
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Throwing an offer sheet at Giroux or whoever is not a big deal, it would only matter if they signed it. Not to mention Holmgren should be smart enough to not let franchise players go unsigned into RFA
The point is that the Habs will match any offer thrown (and accepted) by Subban. Throwing an offersheet would only do damage to the Habs future cap management. As such, retribution would entail. The Habs would throw a ridiculous offer at the afforementioned players knowing that the Flyers would match. The purpose would be to mess with the Flyers cap in revenge.

Therefore, its pointless for the Flyers to throw an offersheet to Subban. Makes zero sense.

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Old
08-03-2012, 07:24 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Not only would the Habs match that, they would throw an offersheet at Giroux / Couts / Schenn / Schenn etc. at first opportunity. Offersheeting a team like the Habs (or Leafs or NYR or even Flyers) is a dangerous game and one in which you would likely get burned in retribution.

ps. Did you miss me Schafe?
Holy **** dude. I haven't seen you since the Price wars.

Anyway, throw your offersheet at whoever you want. I'm fairly certain no Flyers players will make it that far, and if they do, then you've earned the right to overpay them just as we've earned the right to overpay for Subban should we want.

I'm not so convinced it's a good idea though. Not because I'm afraid of the Montreal organization.

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The point is that the Habs will match any offer thrown (and accepted) by Subban. Throwing an offersheet would only do damage to the Habs future cap management. As such, retribution would entail. The Habs would throw a ridiculous offer at the afforementioned players knowing that the Flyers would match. The purpose would be to mess with the Flyers cap in revenge.

Therefore, its pointless for the Flyers to throw an offersheet to Subban. Makes zero sense.
I'm not convinced that Montreal or Philadelphia feel like playing hardball with each other. Flyers offering Subban 7m/year is just a dick move because it's pretty obvious Montreal will match and be stuck with that cap hit. It's not like we're playing with Nashville here.

It is pointless, but I'm not sure if it makes zero sense. Holmgren is known for throwing a bunch of **** at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

What we're arguing here is whether or not its worth having Subban on the team for 7m/year after giving up four 1sts for him, not whether or not Montreal will seek some kind of holier-than-thou egotistical divine hockey gods of the royal hockey state of Montreal justice upon us. I say bring it. Not afraid of the Canadiens' organization.

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08-03-2012, 07:33 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Holy **** dude. I haven't seen you since the Price wars.

Anyway, throw your offersheet at whoever you want. I'm fairly certain no Flyers players will make it that far, and if they do, then you've earned the right to overpay them just as we've earned the right to overpay for Subban should we want.

I'm not so convinced it's a good idea though. Not because I'm afraid of the Montreal organization.



I'm not convinced that Montreal or Philadelphia feel like playing hardball with each other. Flyers offering Subban 7m/year is just a dick move because it's pretty obvious Montreal will match and be stuck with that cap hit. It's not like we're playing with Nashville here.

It is pointless, but I'm not sure if it makes zero sense. Holmgren is known for throwing a bunch of **** at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

What we're arguing here is whether or not its worth having Subban on the team for 7m/year after giving up four 1sts for him, not whether or not Montreal will seek some kind of holier-than-thou egotistical divine hockey gods of the royal hockey state of Montreal justice upon us. I say bring it. Not afraid of the Canadiens' organization.
Speaking of the Price wars... still opposed to the Price + 2nd for JVR offer?

I think we are saying the same thing regarding the Subban offer. (ie. the Habs would match regardless). So its pointless for the Flyers to even entertain the idea. To do so would be an attempt to mess with the Habs cap. (at least that would likely be the message the Habs brass would receive). That is why retribution would be a likely scenario.

I'm not suggesting that the Flyers brass are afraid of the Habs ownership group. I'm suggesting that the Flyers brass aren't stupid.

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08-03-2012, 07:35 PM
  #43
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This year's blueline is more than serviceable, it's the following season that's concerning.

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08-03-2012, 07:37 PM
  #44
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Speaking of the Price wars... still opposed to the Price + 2nd for JVR offer?
Think Toronto would do it? I don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I think we are saying the same thing regarding the Subban offer. (ie. the Habs would match regardless). So its pointless for the Flyers to even entertain the idea. To do so would be an attempt to mess with the Habs cap. (at least that would likely be the message the Habs brass would receive). That is why retribution would be a likely scenario.

I'm not suggesting that the Flyers brass are afraid of the Habs ownership group. I'm suggesting that the Flyers brass aren't stupid.
I agree. I think it's a pointless endeavor that's obviously aimed at screwing with the Habs more than it is about acquiring a defenseman should the act go down.

If the Habs were in our division maybe, but it doesn't make sense. Same reason you won't see us offersheeting Carlson. It's just not the right circumstances for it to be done.

This of course is all just HFboards posturing. Our defense will be as is going into the season unless Pronger returns, which also won't happen. People will need to get used to that.

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08-03-2012, 09:43 PM
  #45
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We've got the single most underrated defense in the NHL now thanks to Bryzgalov and our injury-riddled postseason.
I agree. I don't understand on what planet our defense, 1-6 or even 7, is mediocre.

If everyone plays how they should and L. Schenn plays better, we're looking pretty good in my eyes. Only part that gets me is not the best puck movers, but we're big and strong at least.

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08-04-2012, 08:39 AM
  #46
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This was per Pinheadaccio but I'm not doubting Tocchet's characterization and I feel the same way. How do others feel?

Our D on paper looks ok but too many unknowns such as:

Meszaros- health/back described as "ok" by Holmgren. Can he pick up his offense and be more accurate from the point on the PP?

Bourdon - health/concussion described as "fine" by Holmgren

Grossmann- suspect knees

Timonen- Solid for half a season until injuries and age set in. Coming off back surgery. Has more miles than earth's equator.

Coburn- Solid but can he pick up his offense more with the departure of Carle's puck carrying?

L Schenn- Cyclops, Flamingo shot blocking goalie screening stance per Toronto fans , too heavy and not adroit at puck carrying. Will he turn a corner with Philly and not be Luke Richardson 2.0?

Lilja- No further comment

Gustaffson - Size concerns

Gervais- Talbot's friend with a right hand shot


* Will this defense corps which is more stay at home fit Lavi's system and will they be more responsible to ensure Bryz better success?
JHC I could pick apart anyone on any team and show a wart. Get real here and try to be more adjective. This is a decent defense with no #1. Do my a favor and pick aprart the 1974 and 1975 Flyers defense for me just as you did the 2012 team. Can't wait for this.

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Old
08-05-2012, 02:37 PM
  #47
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This D is deep and young, but it lacks top-end talent. Holmgren tried to address that this offseason. He will HAVE to do that next offseason.

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Old
08-07-2012, 09:16 AM
  #48
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Can't wait for this.
Didn't have to wait long....

I knew Holmgren was trying to downplay things with Mesz....

Quote:
Six days ago, when the Flyers had their media conference call to announce the contract extension signed by head coach Peter Laviolettle, general manager Paul Holmgren was asked for an update on the health status of defenseman Andrej Meszaros.

"He's fine," Holmgren said of the defenseman, who was coming of back surgery.

Today it turns out that Meszaros isn't doing so well after all. He tore his Achilles tendon while training in Slovakia last week. Yesterday, Meszaros underwent surgery.

Achilles tendon injuries are serious ones. Meszaros will miss, at minimum, about half of next season. Depending on the progress of his recovery, he may end of missing most of the regular season. This is another big blow to the defense, as the Flyers were counting on a healthy and productive season from the 2010-11 Barry Ashbee Trophy winner.

As of now, the Flyers top six on defense will be Kimmo Timonen, Luke Schenn, Braydon Coburn, Nicklas Grossmann and two among Erik Gustafsson, Marc-Andre Bourdon and Bruno Gervais. However, it would be reasonable to suspect they may dip into what's left of the free agent defense pool and sign a player such as (injury-prone) Carlo Colaiacovo.

If need be, the Flyers could put Meszaros on long-term injured reserve along with Chris Pronger. Meszaros carries a $4 million cap hit.


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...nuble/45/45964

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Old
08-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #49
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If our D was just serviceable before this, our D is ****ed now.

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08-07-2012, 09:55 AM
  #50
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If our D was just serviceable before this, our D is ****ed now.

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