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08-03-2012, 10:50 AM
  #326
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Apparently it's an argument I'm not going to win, but I want to throw this out there anyway. Bobby Ryan was clearly playing at his best ability alongside Getzlaf and Perry. That's where he belongs, he's a first line player.

If we're moving him down to create depth, fine. But don't try and say he's going to perform better. It seems like everyone is letting last season dictate the direction Bobby needs to go in the rest of his career for some odd reason.

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08-03-2012, 11:09 AM
  #327
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I think if we had a second line capable of putting up more than 100 points collectively (without Bobby) keeping Bobby on the top line could be a good move. But this team, after the first line, is so weak offensively that overloading the first line is not a good move. I know Teemu has always come through with good numbers but that alone cannot be relied upon to be the second line. And his drop off in the second half last year could be a sign that father time is catching up with him.

I also think there is something to be said about giving him his own line that revolves around him. While he can cycle, I don't think cycling plays to his strength (no pun intended). On a line where he is the "go to" guy, I don't think 40 goals is out of the question.

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08-03-2012, 11:40 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I think if we had a second line capable of putting up more than 100 points collectively (without Bobby) keeping Bobby on the top line could be a good move. But this team, after the first line, is so weak offensively that overloading the first line is not a good move. I know Teemu has always come through with good numbers but that alone cannot be relied upon to be the second line. And his drop off in the second half last year could be a sign that father time is catching up with him.

I also think there is something to be said about giving him his own line that revolves around him. While he can cycle, I don't think cycling plays to his strength (no pun intended). On a line where he is the "go to" guy, I don't think 40 goals is out of the question.
Bobby shouldn't be punished for the team's lack of depth. He works best with Getzlaf and Perry and it's not his fault if the second line suffers as a result. Everyone keeps talking about our need for a second line center but we have that already. It's a second line left winger we're theoretically missing and that shouldn't be Bobby. I'm more comfortable with Devo in that spot than him on the top line. With his ability to crash the net he'll draw extra defenders to him giving Teemu to opportunity to find open spaces that he does so well. Palmieri could be an option too if he's comfortable on the left side.

Bobby scores more even strength goals on this team than anybody and that deserves first line minutes. If he were able to get ample power play time he'd lead the team in goals every year.

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08-03-2012, 12:00 PM
  #329
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Why would Ryan playing 2nd line with Selanne be a punishment? If anything it should be a reward as it gives him a role of greater importance (what he apparently wants, not to mention it gives Teemu much needed help), and it could be just what Holland (or Bonino) needs to transition/elevate his game. Besides that, all that twins need is someone to be capable of holding onto a puck and cycle it or pass it, that's it, they will do the rest of the work.

Playing Bobby with Teemu straight from the camp could be the best thing for him yet.

Also, I really doubt DSP is going anywhere near 1st or a 2nd line. I really like him, but he's too young (to consistently play at that level) and needs more time to mature and evolve his game, he's simply not there yet.

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08-03-2012, 12:20 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
Bobby Ryan was clearly playing at his best ability alongside Getzlaf and Perry. That's where he belongs, he's a first line player.
I am not sure if he was playing at his "best ability" with them. I actually doubt that. He was playing at his best production, and at better ability than he was last year, but when they were re-united, that wasn't overly impressive, either. And I don't think "first line player" really means a lot. He'll see enough time on the ice. A top player impacts the game when he's on the ice, independent on what number that line currently has.

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Bobby shouldn't be punished for the team's lack of depth. He works best with Getzlaf and Perry and it's not his fault if the second line suffers as a result.
It's not a punishment. And they haven't been working that well, at all. If they kept working the way they did a year ago, I am not sure we'd be having this discussion. When they aren't on, they are not a very good line, and all three of them are wasted. And they haven't been on as a line nearly enough recently to make up for the lack of depth we're creating by forcing them together.

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Bobby scores more even strength goals on this team than anybody and that deserves first line minutes.
Playing apart from Getzlaf/Perry doesn't automatically mean he'll see less minutes than those. There's always shifts they'll be together. But just that even-strength-production from Ryan is something we can really need, and we need it even moreso coming from a different line.

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08-03-2012, 12:52 PM
  #331
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I am not sure if he was playing at his "best ability" with them. I actually doubt that. He was playing at his best production, and at better ability than he was last year, but when they were re-united, that wasn't overly impressive, either.
These semantics are irrelevant, to say the least. Bobby Ryan clearly has the most impact alongside Getzlaf and Perry, that's really all that matters. You're talking about a line that dominated the league just as well as anybody since the lockout. Last year was a down year... for everyone. Actually, it's quite amazing how last year has conjured the idea (for many) that the team is destined to fail with Ryan, Perry, and Getzlaf together. Look at what they did in 2010-11, and imagine what they can do now if the depth behind them works out (Selanne, Palmieri, Koivu, Holland, Bonino, etc.). I'll surely take the projected 2012-13 roster over the one in 2010-11.

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And I don't think "first line player" really means a lot. He'll see enough time on the ice. A top player impacts the game when he's on the ice, independent on what number that line currently has.
He won't see enough time on the ice if he's being shuffled along the middle-six lines while personnel on those lines are also changing (presumably likely while we're trying to find the right place for rookies). "First line player" is pretty critical, actually. Would you move Getzlaf down in the lineup? Perry? No. Most would flat out reject the idea, which is why I really question the validity of the hive mind's opinion. Personally, I think the contract controversy, outward criticism of coaching, and trade reaction from Ryan have soured the mouths of a lot of fans.

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08-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
These semantics are irrelevant, to say the least. Bobby Ryan clearly has the most impact alongside Getzlaf and Perry, that's really all that matters. You're talking about a line that dominated the league just as well as anybody since the lockout. Last year was a down year... for everyone. Actually, it's quite amazing how last year has conjured the idea (for many) that the team is destined to fail with Ryan, Perry, and Getzlaf together. Look at what they did in 2010-11, and imagine what they can do now if the depth behind them works out (Selanne, Palmieri, Koivu, Holland, Bonino, etc.). I'll surely take the projected 2012-13 roster over the one in 2010-11.

He won't see enough time on the ice if he's being shuffled along the middle-six lines while personnel on those lines are also changing (presumably likely while we're trying to find the right place for rookies). "First line player" is pretty critical, actually. Would you move Getzlaf down in the lineup? Perry? No. Most would flat out reject the idea, which is why I really question the validity of the hive mind's opinion. Personally, I think the contract controversy, outward criticism of coaching, and trade reaction from Ryan have soured the mouths of a lot of fans.
In 10/11, the offensive depth was much better than it's looking on paper currently. Selanne was still above a PPG player and Koivu was still decent enough 2nd line material. On top of that, Lupul also played 20+ games and Visnovsky was awesome offensively from the back end.

The only way next years forward depth is better is if two of the kids breaks out in a big way. A team's 6th best forward should produce at a 0.5 PPG rate (at the very least). But if the kids don't take that step, there's probably only four forwards on the team who will produce at or above that rate.

If the 2nd line is Cogliano/Koivu/Selanne, Cogliano is going to struggle to put up 30 points and Koivu would probably not put up more than 35. Now, what is Selanne going to do alongside a 25-30 winger and a 30-40 center? I think Teemu would struggle to even reach 50 points.

If you put Ryan with Koivu and Selanne, Saku could have another 40 point season in him and Teemu another 55+ point year. Meanwhile, Getzlaf's and Perry's production was never worse without Ryan than with Ryan.

(all projections are based on 82 games).


Last edited by Elvs: 08-03-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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08-03-2012, 01:19 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
Bobby Ryan clearly has the most impact alongside Getzlaf and Perry, that's really all that matters.
That's not a fact, though. He had as much impact as he's had stat-wise to this day back then with them, sure. But that doesn't mean we're getting as much out of him as we can hope for.

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You're talking about a line that dominated the league just as well as anybody since the lockout. Last year was a down year... for everyone. Actually, it's quite amazing how last year has conjured the idea (for many) that the team is destined to fail with Ryan, Perry, and Getzlaf together.
I haven't forgotten how dominating that line had been. That said, PPG was a dominating line in its own, with Penner being nowhere near Ryan's talent, and before Getzlaf and Perry made further strides towards being the players they are today. And that's exactly what that is about: when Getzlaf and Perry are on, they don't need a Ryan on their wing to make a very productive line. All they need is a decently fitting complimentary player. When they are off their game, the entire line is off, and Ryan can't change that with the way they play.

By the way, I don't think this team is destined to "fail" with RPG, I just think there's plenty of reasons to believe that we'll not get as much out of this group as we could if we split them up. Most teams don't actually have their three best forwards on the same line.

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He won't see enough time on the ice if he's being shuffled along the middle-six lines while personnel on those lines are also changing (presumably likely while we're trying to find the right place for rookies).
I don't think there's necessarily going to be too much shuffling. Palmieri is pretty set in stone in that scenario. The only question would be whether it's Bonino or Holland in between them, which I doubt would be subject of change on a daily basis, especially if Bonino gets the job, which I would guess would lead to Holland seeing some more AHL time.

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Would you move Getzlaf down in the lineup? Perry? No.
Sure, I would. If there's a sensible way. But as of now, Getzlaf and Perry are a duo with unquestioned chemistry, plus we have no other center remotely as good. As long as they are a pair - which in my opinion is the case for a lot more of a reason than Ryan being with both of them - there's no sensible way to not see that as our top line.

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Most would flat out reject the idea, which is why I really question the validity of the hive mind's opinion.
Personally, I think the contract controversy, outward criticism of coaching, and trade reaction from Ryan have soured the mouths of a lot of fans.
I honestly can't see that. I think the reasons for taking Ryan off that line have been explained very often, and in quite some detail. Looking at other boards than just this, I also don't see the idea being all that commonly rejected, at all.

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08-03-2012, 01:23 PM
  #334
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If you put Ryan with Koivu and Selanne, Saku could have another 40 point season in him and Teemu another 55+ point year.
In that scenario, I really don't see much upside in what possible 3rd lines we end up with. Cogliano-Bonino/Holland-Palimeri seems like a very long shot.

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08-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #335
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In that scenario, I really don't see much upside in what possible 3rd lines we end up with. Cogliano-Bonino/Holland-Palimeri seems like a very long shot.
Yeah, I was just throwing the 2nd line of last season out there. Ideally, if Holland and Palmieri are ready, I'd like to see Palms with the twins and Holland between Bobby and Teemu. That way, both kids get to be the 3rd link on their respective lines with less pressure.

If it was up to me, Koivu would be playing on the 3rd line with Winnik and DSP. It's evident that he can't hold up over 82 games anymore, but in a more defensive role he should have more gas left for his duties on the PK and on the 2nd PP unit. In a role like that, I could still see him put up 30 points (of course, many of them on the PP), not much less than what I would expect from him on a line with Teemu and Cogs.

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08-03-2012, 03:47 PM
  #336
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Got to thinking today. One year from today we could (potentially) be without Getz, Perry and Ryan.

Anyways, lets fast forward a little bit and say that the trade deadline is tomorrow and we are out of the playoff race. Lots of offers for an unsigned Getz and Perry. Rumor has it they may not want to come back to Anaheim and will explore free agency if they remain a Duck til the end of the season.
As GM what do you do?

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08-03-2012, 03:52 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Got to thinking today. One year from today we could (potentially) be without Getz, Perry and Ryan.

Anyways, lets fast forward a little bit and say that the trade deadline is tomorrow and we are out of the playoff race. Lots of offers for an unsigned Getz and Perry. Rumor has it they may not want to come back to Anaheim and will explore free agency if they remain a Duck til the end of the season.
As GM what do you do?
Start looking for a new employer.

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08-03-2012, 03:58 PM
  #338
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If return is Kadri for Getz - not make a deal. If Crosby + Malkin for Getz - make a deal.

all answers will be something like this.

+ give me you employer contact info

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08-03-2012, 04:14 PM
  #339
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Got to thinking today. One year from today we could (potentially) be without Getz, Perry and Ryan.

Anyways, lets fast forward a little bit and say that the trade deadline is tomorrow and we are out of the playoff race. Lots of offers for an unsigned Getz and Perry. Rumor has it they may not want to come back to Anaheim and will explore free agency if they remain a Duck til the end of the season.
As GM what do you do?
Quit HF boards as the whinging on the board would be through the roof with any decision made

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08-03-2012, 04:28 PM
  #340
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08-03-2012, 06:53 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Got to thinking today. One year from today we could (potentially) be without Getz, Perry and Ryan.

Anyways, lets fast forward a little bit and say that the trade deadline is tomorrow and we are out of the playoff race. Lots of offers for an unsigned Getz and Perry. Rumor has it they may not want to come back to Anaheim and will explore free agency if they remain a Duck til the end of the season.
As GM what do you do?
One year from now I may be dead. You may be a Kings fan. Murray may be the GM of the year.

Lets keep going shall we?

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08-03-2012, 06:58 PM
  #342
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If it was up to me, Koivu would be playing on the 3rd line with Winnik and DSP. It's evident that he can't hold up over 82 games anymore, but in a more defensive role he should have more gas left for his duties on the PK and on the 2nd PP unit. In a role like that, I could still see him put up 30 points (of course, many of them on the PP), not much less than what I would expect from him on a line with Teemu and Cogs.
That's my line of thought as well. DSP and Winnik are both big, good defensively (Winnik is very good and DSP is good enough) and are handy enough offensively to play with Koivu in a third line role. It would certainly be the best third line we've iced since we had Pahlsson and Niedermayer here.

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Start looking for a new employer.
Pretty much. Murray can't afford to lose the only top end forwards he has after he's already lost/traded two two end defensemen (Pronger and Niedermayer). Players like that don't grow on trees.

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08-03-2012, 07:44 PM
  #343
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Ask any forward and they'll tell you they want to play on the top line and the top line gets the most minutes. That's not even debatable. Even strength ice time leaders from last season go in this order: Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne, and Koivu. Pears and Getzy averaged over a minute more than Bobby and two minutes more than Teemu and Koivu. In 10-11 the whole big line's even strength ice time was on average at least a minute more per game and they put up over 100 goals collectively. Plus Bobby has stated repeatedly how much he likes to play with those two and the numbers don't lie.

So yes separating him from that line is a punishment to him, plain and simple. As much as people say that's a bad idea to front load all that talent well we were fourth in the conference that season Perry was MVP. If not for Hiller's brain going wonky and Lydman and Lubo hurting their shoulders we could have won the whole damn thing that year. The best weapon this team has is those three as a line provided Getzy has a bounced back year. He was the reason why that line didn't work consistently last season but you have to hope it was just an off year.

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08-03-2012, 08:37 PM
  #344
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Ryan just stated that he wanted to separate from Getz and Perry earlier this offseason. I don't see how giving Ryan what he wants is punishment.

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08-03-2012, 09:10 PM
  #345
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I just don't see Saku putting up 40 points again. Even if he does with Ryan on that line, it weakens the rest. Hope I'm wrong though.

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08-04-2012, 12:01 AM
  #346
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Holland between Ryan and Selanne is that big of a weak point. It's a lot better than Ryan playing with Palmieri (who is barely more proven than Holland) and Bonino (who I'll admit has shown some promise but in all likelihood will probably top out as a third line centre). Not to mention that would mean sticking Teemu on a line with Cogs and Koivu which is not fair on Teemu. And I don't even want to think about DSP on the top line, unless he improves a ton over the off season, he's not good enough for that role right now.

What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather try and establish two scoring lines before we try and spread the offense over three lines. And the Koivu line wouldn't be a set checking line like the Pahlsson line was, it would be a defensively responsible line that is capable of eating some heavy minutes which would give the Selanne line time against lesser opponents. Which again puts Holland in an ideal situation to start his career, playing soft minutes with a hall of famer and a 30 goal scorer.
I'm curious; if you are suggesting having Ryan and Selanne on the same line and you don't want DSP on the top line, what are you wanting the lines to look like?

I also disagree about your situation putting Holland in "soft" minutes. IMO, placing him in a position where he has to score (only 2 scoring lines), and it's going to create more pressure for the kid. Any way you put the lines, there's going to be a player out of position. Plus, maybe I am in the minority, but I do not believe that Selanne was far and away better then Koivu at ES. I believe that we shouldn't have to rely so much on the Finns for scoring either, but unfortunately that's the way Murray has set up the roster so far. I have been adament about it being important to add another 2nd line center, but I'd settle for a clear cut 2nd line player. That at least lets us take one of the players out of a position where we need to rush them.

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08-04-2012, 12:25 AM
  #347
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One year from now I may be dead. You may be a Kings fan. Murray may be the GM of the year.

Lets keep going shall we?
Would you please stop replying to my post. You have nothing good to say.

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08-04-2012, 12:56 AM
  #348
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I'm curious; if you are suggesting having Ryan and Selanne on the same line and you don't want DSP on the top line, what are you wanting the lines to look like?

I also disagree about your situation putting Holland in "soft" minutes. IMO, placing him in a position where he has to score (only 2 scoring lines), and it's going to create more pressure for the kid. Any way you put the lines, there's going to be a player out of position. Plus, maybe I am in the minority, but I do not believe that Selanne was far and away better then Koivu at ES. I believe that we shouldn't have to rely so much on the Finns for scoring either, but unfortunately that's the way Murray has set up the roster so far. I have been adament about it being important to add another 2nd line center, but I'd settle for a clear cut 2nd line player. That at least lets us take one of the players out of a position where we need to rush them.
Unfortunately the only other options are Palmieri and Etem. I prefer Palmieri although have no idea how good he is on LW. DSP doesn't have the puck skills and finishing ability to be lining up with those two yet IMO. Palmieri at the very least will finish a lot of chances and he started showing signs of being willing to dig pucks out of the corners and doing a bit of dirty work.

I agree that without acquiring other players that there are no ideal options. We have a big hole in the top 6 at LW and at C. So much for Murray's quote where he said he only wanted to ease in one young player to start the year. At this point we'll be icing three or four guys with <50 games experience.

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08-04-2012, 01:03 AM
  #349
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One guy who could be worth taking a shot on depending on his asking price is Huseluis. Has been injured the past two years but before his injury was a 50-70 point player. He's a natural LW too which helps.

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08-04-2012, 02:55 AM
  #350
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One guy who could be worth taking a shot on depending on his asking price is Huseluis. Has been injured the past two years but before his injury was a 50-70 point player. He's a natural LW too which helps.
He's also less than stellar on defence, but for the right price (and physical exam)... Why not.

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