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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
08-03-2012, 05:24 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The problem with that strategy is that it comes with no guarantees. A lot of teams like the Toronto Maple Leafs try that strategy and they still fail to improve.
Competitive sport may not be for you if you're expecting strategies that are guaranteed to succeed

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08-03-2012, 05:43 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The problem with that strategy is that it comes with no guarantees. A lot of teams like the Toronto Maple Leafs try that strategy and they still fail to improve.
You mean when Sundin refused to be traded. That's why getting rid of the players you don't want before the season starts is a much better idea.

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While announcing his controversial decision not to waive his no-trade clause, an obviously conflicted Sundin tells reporters, “I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time.” He then pauses, look around warily, and adds, “Soooo, if someone could tell Cliff Fletcher to stop honking the horn of the moving van in my driveway, that would be awesome.”
Burke never believed in doing anything other than a rebuild on the fly.

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08-03-2012, 06:03 PM
  #528
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Frozenice and Habtacular,

The anti-rebuilders have been arguing that high draft picks and extra cap space are useless because they come with no guarantees.

I'm just [sarcastically] pointing out how irrelevant their argument is, as the grand strategy to target glorious 8th place, preferred by SouthernHab and others, also comes with no guarantees.

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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
You mean when Sundin refused to be traded. That's why getting rid of the players you don't want before the season starts is a much better idea.
Trade them whenever you get a satisfactory offer.

The Cammalleri trade is a good example. We could have waited until the deadline and gotten a little bit more, but he might have been injured and we could have lost everything. We got a good return for Cammalleri and we pulled the gun.

Also, Sundin had an NTC. He should have come to Montreal. He might have gotten to know what lifting the Stanley Cup feels like.

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08-03-2012, 11:00 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Frozenice and Habtacular,

The anti-rebuilders have been arguing that high draft picks and extra cap space are useless because they come with no guarantees.

I'm just [sarcastically] pointing out how irrelevant their argument is, as the grand strategy to target glorious 8th place, preferred by SouthernHab and others, also comes with no guarantees.


Trade them whenever you get a satisfactory offer.

The Cammalleri trade is a good example. We could have waited until the deadline and gotten a little bit more, but he might have been injured and we could have lost everything. We got a good return for Cammalleri and we pulled the gun.

Also, Sundin had an NTC. He should have come to Montreal. He might have gotten to know what lifting the Stanley Cup feels like.
I think the return for Cammalleri was satisfactory. If Bourque can be traded for a hird rounder, the gross return would be a second, a third, and a prospect.

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08-04-2012, 12:09 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post


1. Playoffs would be horrible? You guys forget that we currently have a large number of young players on the team. Experience helps them. I'm pretty sure its easier to sign big name free agents when your team doesn't stink as well. Anyways, go watch Toronto if you don't care about playoffs.

2. And yes he's going to be wrong if we do make the playoffs or miss out on a lottery pick. He's defended his arguments well and has right for his opinion but DAChampion made it clear that without any moves the current team is bound to tank. Theres no shame in that, its a very difficult sport to predict especially with a team like the Habs. Thats why counting on the team failing next year isn't a good idea (my opinion). Imho we can't expect the current group to finish with a top5 pick unless we deal major parts of the team.

I say the team should try its best (winning mentality) and the org should support them. If approaching the trade deadline we have 80% or more chance to miss the playoffs and/or suffer massive injuries again then we should be sellers and finish as low as possible. No ''tanking move'' should be done before that, we'll maximize value of players at the deadline anyways so trading now is not a good idea.
Good post. But OP has not suggested we make any rebuild moves before deadline. In fact, he has suggested, as I do, to try to win every game until then, which is good for the Habs, and good for the players.

There are then 3 possible scenarios, or many more of course, but these seem most likely. Note that I do not include a miracle playoff run in any of them. If you disagree, that's OK.

1. The worst: We play 'OK', and Bourque Gomer and their type play 'OK', and we are in 9th at the deadline. Dealing Bourque etc. for prospects becomes very hard to justify to the average fan, so we hold on to them, and finish 9th, or 8th and lose in the first round, resulting in average draft pick, not a great one, in a year where top 5 are superb. One more year gone on the clock, the deadwood still there.

2. The likely: Bourque, Gomer and their type play badly, we have injuries, and we are in 12th at the deadline. We then trade the bad vets for fairly crappy prospects, or 3rd round picks if we are lucky. But at least we offload deadwood. We then finish 12-14th, and we draft high. Good.

3. The best: Bourque, Gomer, Kaberle all play well, but for whatever reason, even trying our best, we are in 12th at the deadline. This could be because of injuries to others, and no, I don't want that. Let's say it's some bad luck combined with a series of minor injuries to Price, PK etc. We then trade the deadwood, who are performing well, for good second round picks or better.

I do not see this third scenario happening.

And I fear the first scenario. If Habs just miss the playoffs, or are knocked out in round 1, and we end up with a 14th-16th pick overall, in a great top 5 draft year, and still have Bourque, Kaberle and Gomer on the team, I will run over my dog with the car. And I love that dog.


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08-04-2012, 01:25 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
I beg your pardon? Have you heard of Andrei Markov? Yeah, he's on the roster. Didn't play but 10 games last year. That's an improvement already, not to mention having Kaberle on the roster as well. (It's a little known fact that our PP was 50% better in games that Kaberle played than in games where he didn't play).

Have you heard of PK Subban? Yeah. 14 PP goals over the past 2 years including one year where he lead the league in that stat even though he was a rookie. Stop looking for a triggerman, we have one. We just need someone who can pass him the puck, and that guy is named Andrei Markov.

Question - who (amongst defensemen) in the league has more PP goals over the past 2 seasons than PK Subban?

Answer - Shea Weber and Zdeno Chara. That's it.
Interesting. Good post. And I think PK will further improve his blue line play on the PP. I look forward to it. But this has little to do with the rebuild argument. In fact, it supports it if anything, as you rebuild only when you have young guns with great potential, like PK.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
That's a chain of ifs, as though Bergevin has a clear path. But your options remind me of adding one extension cord to another to another. No successful team has counted on unproven prospects to go with so few obvious keepers as the Habs have now. Chicago added veterans such as Hossa, Sharp, Versteeg, etc. So did Pittsburgh and Boston and LA with their rosters. In addition, your suggestion to trade Gionta, with his age, salary, and physical problems, would make other GMs lick their lips? Bourque? You expect him to fetch a first or second rounder? The Flames were so glad to get rid of him that they ceded a second rounder and a prospect in the deal as well as taking on Cammalleri's more expensive contract. It would be prudent of Bergevin to look for veterans (but younger than Doan) who would be an immediate fit. Oh, but I seem to have forgotten that the veterans I have in mind are precisely the type you would trade to amplify your tank.
Bold above. Good luck finding young, skilled veterans with an immediate fit. So easy to say. Why would their own team give them up? Trading is highly dangerous, incremental improvement at best if you are lucky, disaster if your are not. Want to do McDo for Gomer again?

The point of this thread is that, if you are rebuilding:

1. High draft picks are safe and effective.
2. Good UFA choices are OK, as the last step.
3. Miracle rebuilding trades rarely happen, and such trades often kill you too. We especially should know this.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You're not answering my objections. Nor are you acknowledging the role of veterans obtained in trades or as free agents that enabled Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, and LA to win the Cup. Your strategy is like investing most of your portfolio in speculative stocks.
OP and others who like me who agree with him never said that good UFA pick ups are not part of a rebuild. In fact, Prust is a good example of just that. When we contend in 2 years, he may be a huge part of that puzzle, and I think Bergy knows it. Read.

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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
There's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread! But, the way I see things, it's a hypothetical argument, with Habs management already having moved in a different direction.

If the idea was to "surgically tank," the bottom end of the lineup should have been filled with two kinds of players:

- young (say, under 27), talented but flawed discards from other teams, given a one year audition to see if a change of scenery can make them into assets going forward

- veterans signed to one year contracts, to be traded for futures at the deadline

Instead, Bergevin signed Prust and Moen to 4 year contracts. At 28 and 30 years old, they will be expected to perform in 2012-13. If the plan is anything other than to win games, we're just playing them to get old.

As it is, the Habs' possible deadline chips if they are out of contention are Budaj, Bouillon, Armstrong and Nokelainen, none of which are close to 2nd round pick material, IMO.

Sloppy surgery, if that was the intention.
Rebuilds take time. You think Prust will be useless in three years? I disagree. He is part of the rebuild.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Thing is, if we finish 8th next season or, in fact, if we finish 9th or 10th even we'll be much closer to the ''next step'' (which is being a top5 team in the conference) than if we tank the season and trade players. Teams usually don't go from 27th place to 1st place&stanley cup. Usually they go from bad to average to good. If we tank every time we doubt we can make it then we'll never succeed.

In one or two years, as an 8th place bubble team, we will add Galchenyuk, Leblanc&Gallagher should both be ready as well and replace production lost from Gionta&other veterans aging or leaving. With a playoff team it will be easier to acquire free agents and our assets will have more value if we want to trade.

''Tanking'' is good for teams without a future or with young players too young to have an impact. Calgary for instance should tank, they prospects are bare and veterans too old. Edmonton's continued tanking is justified because their young players&prospects are not seasoned enough and the rest of the team is pitiful.

The Habs however are neither - we have a good core of young players and they are poised to play their best hockey in the next 5 years and our prospect group is deep and strong enough. We can ill afford to blow this window of opportunity.
Bold above: When did any of us, or the OP, suggest that the tank would take 5 years? In fact, the TITLE of this thread shows full understanding that we have a cup window the next five years, especially due to Price, and therefore we had better get this 'tanking' over with in one more quick sharp year.

Total fail post. Total misunderstanding of the OP. You and 100 others here.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
More like you need veteran stabilizers on the line for it to be a good line. You want good lines in order to win.

Right now there shouldn't be many rookies on the team. Nobody new on defense and possibly a spot for one of Leblanc, Gallagher or Galchenyuk so your theory doesn't make much sense there. At most we'll see a few call-ups.

Another thing : Therrien was signed on a short term deal. You think he wants to risk his career by overseeing a team crash and burn? He's going to coach to win as well and I'm sure Bergevin agrees. Theres no worse place to coach a tanking team than Montreal - teams that pick top5 are always pathetic displays but here its a pathetic display with millions watching and the spotlight on your face.
No one ever, ever said the Therrien should not coach to win. His job, and the player's job, is to try their damnedest to win every single game. I demand that of Therrien, and every player.

In fact, a rebuild works better in an environment that does not tolerate losing. You think the players and coach do not know they are on a rebuilding team? They do. But with good management, they see hope in the near future, and work hard to be part of that future.

You have misunderstood roles. The coach and players take it game by game, season by season. That is their job.

We are talking about strategy at the GM level. The coach has nothing at all to do with this topic. So don't bring him up. You just confuse things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Tankards, beware. Fans on other NHL sites (e.g., Toronto) are also getting impatient and want their teams to tank. If too many GMs adopt that strategy, there will be fewer buyers and the returns for veterans will be poorer. The Habs might end up with 3rd and 4th rounders instead of the anticipated 2nds. Trades of veterans for 1st rounders will be as rare as 6-leaf clovers.
So we should not manage well, and rebuild intelligently, because other teams are doing that too.

Honda should give up trying to design, build and sell the most cars, because Toyota is also trying to. Don't know what to say really, other than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What if there are injuries during this time frame?

What if our tank draft picks are injured?

What if there are RFA's who decide to go elsewhere?

What if Therrien is fired in 2014 and we have a new coach?


This thread continues to be an exercise in futility because there is no certainty in hockey or any other sport. You ice your best team, hire the best coach who executes a successful strategy and then hope for the best outcome.

Anything else is an excuse to prolong a debate that has not much basis in reality because of the numerous variables involved in playing a physical game with real live human beings who are driven by emotion.

However, I am doing my best to keep this thread going toward the target of Part 2 for tanking. It will be a badge of honor for this board for the Montreal Canadiens to be known as the team with the tanking fanbase.
Your blather is unreal. So many guys here disagree intelligently with the OP. You do not.

If a Tsunami hits Montreal in 1 year, and we all drown, and we have too many Libras on the team, and there is crop drought in the south, causing bread shortages, then why bother managing the team? As there is no chance. OK.....yeah.


Last edited by bsl: 08-04-2012 at 01:38 AM.
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Old
08-04-2012, 04:19 AM
  #532
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I agree somewhat....I don't have high expectations for this year, however I feel about the same as I did 3 years ago when we went on to the final 4 in the playoffs. and that is one point, there is so much parity its becoming harder and harder to tell what teams are going to excel. ie LA KINGS.
Play our big money free agents so as to improve our chances of off loading come trade deadline is something I would be comitted to doing. stock pile picks is something I think is also important. If we finish last so be it, I would not be surprised, but at least go down with a fight.
THe areas I don't agree is, having Markov out almost the entire season had more of an impact than you might think and having him around this season in its entirety will be a huge added bonus. Despite Subban playing some of his best defensive hockey of his life last year I think there is a huge amount of room for his offensive side to shine this season. Also Plekanc struggled last season and will be looking to rebound. Patches is the real thing he overcame so much adversity last season he is not going to fall much in production. Price consistent...yeah, but I expect him to steal a few more games this season and improve in shoot out play now that hes landed the big contract.
as for our trades Cammy did nothing in the regular season, and so does Bourque. minus 5-3 play Boullioun is a better defenseman than GIll, hands down.
Interested to see how it all pans out.

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08-04-2012, 08:52 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I explicitly wrote to trade veterans.

That gives you the cap space you need to bring players like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, and LA did.

Without cap space you're not bringing in anybody.

If Gionta, Kaberle, and Bourque can be taken off the roster then we can make noise in future UFA signings.
Deletion of Gomez would be nice, wouldn't it? And do you have any bright ideas about where to place these players? This isn't Star Trek, you know, where you can beam them to distant parts of the universe. If they can't be traded, what else would you suggest? It would enhance your proposition if you could be practical instead of just wishing for resolution of the clogged roster arteries by providing a slogan, "surgical tanking." To cite just one example, you blithely "disappear" Gionta without having any notion of how difficult it would be in view of his age and contract.

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08-04-2012, 10:32 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
3 year plan:

2012-2013: surgical tank
2013-2014: transition, possibly 1st round playoff exit
2014-2015: compete for the cup.

We don't need Halperm, we already have Nokes.
See, that's what I mean. 2014-15, you don't hire 28 and 30 year old depth forwards for a run in two years. Bergevin is not thinking this way.

Halpern was just an example of a veteran forward who signed for one year, who could be traded at the deadline for an asset. If you don't think he's a fit, there are plenty more out there. Bergevin had plenty of options, if tanking was in the plans.

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08-04-2012, 10:53 AM
  #535
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me want subban

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08-04-2012, 11:01 AM
  #536
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See, that's what I mean. 2014-15, you don't hire 28 and 30 year old depth forwards for a run in two years. Bergevin is not thinking this way.

Halpern was just an example of a veteran forward who signed for one year, who could be traded at the deadline for an asset. If you don't think he's a fit, there are plenty more out there. Bergevin had plenty of options, if tanking was in the plans.
Prust and Moen will provide great value over the 4 years. They can fulfill two different roles over that time span.

This year, they can stabilize the bottom 2 lines. Even if you're tanking on steroids you can't have a line of Geoffrion-Leblanc-Palushaj. When you have a line like that they make a lot of mistakes, they lose their confidence, and the coach plays them 3 minutes a game. You need veterans on the line. See what Moen and AK46 did for Eller's development early this year. He was progressing nicely until they put the mediocrity Rene Bourque on his line. Now that we have Moen and Prust in the bottom 6, all bottom-6 players can play 10-15 minutes a game, rendering it a real development opportunity.

Next year, when we transition to being a playoff team, and the year after that when we transition to being a contender, Moen and Prust will then be in a position to contribute the secondary scoring, the fighting, etc. that can make the difference between a 2nd round playoff exit and a legitimate Stanley Cup run.

By the way, Jeff Halpern is a center who doesn't provide physcality. We already have 5 centers, what we're missing is wingers and physcality.

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08-04-2012, 11:17 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Good post. But OP has not suggested we make any rebuild moves before deadline. In fact, he has suggested, as I do, to try to win every game until then, which is good for the Habs, and good for the players.

There are then 3 possible scenarios, or many more of course, but these seem most likely. Note that I do not include a miracle playoff run in any of them. If you disagree, that's OK.

1. The worst: We play 'OK', and Bourque Gomer and their type play 'OK', and we are in 9th at the deadline. Dealing Bourque etc. for prospects becomes very hard to justify to the average fan, so we hold on to them, and finish 9th, or 8th and lose in the first round, resulting in average draft pick, not a great one, in a year where top 5 are superb. One more year gone on the clock, the deadwood still there.

2. The likely: Bourque, Gomer and their type play badly, we have injuries, and we are in 12th at the deadline. We then trade the bad vets for fairly crappy prospects, or 3rd round picks if we are lucky. But at least we offload deadwood. We then finish 12-14th, and we draft high. Good.

3. The best: Bourque, Gomer, Kaberle all play well, but for whatever reason, even trying our best, we are in 12th at the deadline. This could be because of injuries to others, and no, I don't want that. Let's say it's some bad luck combined with a series of minor injuries to Price, PK etc. We then trade the deadwood, who are performing well, for good second round picks or better.

I do not see this third scenario happening.

And I fear the first scenario. If Habs just miss the playoffs, or are knocked out in round 1, and we end up with a 14th-16th pick overall, in a great top 5 draft year, and still have Bourque, Kaberle and Gomer on the team, I will run over my dog with the car. And I love that dog.
I agree with your rankings, both in terms of probabilities and desirabilities.

Regarding the third scenario: I don't see us offloading each of Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle, and Gionta, that would be both amazing and unlikely. However, if we unload half of them, then we've done great in my opinion.

Another factor is Plekanec, Desharnais, and Eller. Depending on how they progress, whether or not Desharnas remains a point per game player, etc. and how Galchenyuk progresses in Sarnia and does at the WJC, there will be huge threads on this forum by the end of this year debating whether or not one of Plekanec, Eller or Desharnais should be traded. That will be necessary if we want to make room for Galchenyuk as next year's third line center.

I suspect that this will be Bergevin's toughest decision at the deadline. A likely outcome is that he gets one great offer for Plekanec and one "ok" offer for Desharnais -- what should he do in that case?

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08-04-2012, 11:27 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Prust and Moen will provide great value over the 4 years. They can fulfill two different roles over that time span.
Honestly, you just can't say that with any certainty. Maybe they'll age like Claude Lemieux, that would be fantastic. Maybe they'll age quickly like Armstrong or Begin or most depth, energy wingers. Chances are at least one of them will decline by the 2014 playoffs.

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This year, they can stabilize the bottom 2 lines. Even if you're tanking on steroids you can't have a line of Geoffrion-Leblanc-Palushaj. When you have a line like that they make a lot of mistakes, they lose their confidence, and the coach plays them 3 minutes a game. You need veterans on the line. See what Moen and AK46 did for Eller's development early this year. He was progressing nicely until they put the mediocrity Rene Bourque on his line. Now that we have Moen and Prust in the bottom 6, all bottom-6 players can play 10-15 minutes a game, rendering it a real development opportunity.
I never suggested that kid line as a hypothetical tank strategy.

If the idea was to "surgically tank," the bottom end of the lineup should have been filled with two kinds of players:

- young (say, under 27), talented but flawed discards from other teams, given a one year audition to see if a change of scenery can make them into assets going forward

- veterans signed to one year contracts, to be traded for futures at the deadline


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Next year, when we transition to being a playoff team, and the year after that when we transition to being a contender, Moen and Prust will then be in a position to contribute the secondary scoring, the fighting, etc. that can make the difference between a 2nd round playoff exit and a legitimate Stanley Cup run.
Fighting is irrelevant in the playoffs. Secondary scoring, at the Prust/Moen level, can be purchased for a reasonable price on the free agent market every year. With more certainty, the offseason before the "window of opportunity," as you can pursue players who have shown they can do the job recently, rather than three seasons prior.

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By the way, Jeff Halpern is a center who doesn't provide physcality. We already have 5 centers, what we're missing is wingers and physcality.
Halpern plays the wing too. And he's just a better player than Noke, and should have better value at the deadline. But, again, Halpern is just a name I threw out there, just to show an example of a veteran who signed a one year deal. Whether or not you think the specific player is a fit, doesn't matter.

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08-04-2012, 11:31 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
I agree somewhat....I don't have high expectations for this year, however I feel about the same as I did 3 years ago when we went on to the final 4 in the playoffs. and that is one point, there is so much parity its becoming harder and harder to tell what teams are going to excel. ie LA KINGS.
Play our big money free agents so as to improve our chances of off loading come trade deadline is something I would be comitted to doing. stock pile picks is something I think is also important. If we finish last so be it, I would not be surprised, but at least go down with a fight.
THe areas I don't agree is, having Markov out almost the entire season had more of an impact than you might think and having him around this season in its entirety will be a huge added bonus. Despite Subban playing some of his best defensive hockey of his life last year I think there is a huge amount of room for his offensive side to shine this season. Also Plekanc struggled last season and will be looking to rebound. Patches is the real thing he overcame so much adversity last season he is not going to fall much in production. Price consistent...yeah, but I expect him to steal a few more games this season and improve in shoot out play now that hes landed the big contract.
as for our trades Cammy did nothing in the regular season, and so does Bourque. minus 5-3 play Boullioun is a better defenseman than GIll, hands down.
Interested to see how it all pans out.
Cammalleri was not very good last year, and we were a 12th place team when he was traded. However, if you go back to when Cammalleri was good, we played like an 8th place team one year and a 6th place team the next. Therefore the difference between us and the playoffs is at a minimum the value of Cammalleri when playing well, never mind all the other roster losses since we made the playoffs (e.g. Roman Hamrlik, James Wisniewski, Jeff Halpern, Hal Gill, AK46).

I don't know that Plekanec struggled last year. AK46 was traded, Cammalleri was traded, Gionta was injured, toward the end of the season he had Ryan White and Brad Staubitz on his line... and he finished with 17 goals and 52 points. He was our shutdown center, getting the toughest opposition and a lot of defensive zone starts. He led one of the best PKs in the league. That sounds pretty good to me.

With respect to Markov, it's important to realize that he's been out of the game for 3 years. For a player like him who plays smart, the psychological rustiness will take time to fade away, and we should expect him to struggle for a few months. If he replaces what we lost with Hamrlik a year ago then we're ok, at least for this season. Meanwhile, there will be new injuries on defense.

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08-04-2012, 11:39 AM
  #540
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Honestly, you just can't say that with any certainty. Maybe they'll age like Claude Lemieux, that would be fantastic. Maybe they'll age quickly like Armstrong or Begin or most depth, energy wingers. Chances are at least one of them will decline by the 2014 playoffs.



I never suggested that kid line as a hypothetical tank strategy.

If the idea was to "surgically tank," the bottom end of the lineup should have been filled with two kinds of players:

- young (say, under 27), talented but flawed discards from other teams, given a one year audition to see if a change of scenery can make them into assets going forward

- veterans signed to one year contracts, to be traded for futures at the deadline


Fighting is irrelevant in the playoffs. Secondary scoring, at the Prust/Moen level, can be purchased for a reasonable price on the free agent market every year. With more certainty, the offseason before the "window of opportunity," as you can pursue players who have shown they can do the job recently, rather than three seasons prior.

Halpern plays the wing too. And he's just a better player than Noke, and should have better value at the deadline. But, again, Halpern is just a name I threw out there, just to show an example of a veteran who signed a one year deal. Whether or not you think the specific player is a fit, doesn't matter.
I think I might like Prust and Moen more than you do. I don't really know about Prust and am trusting Bergevin's judgment, but I don't think Moen is easily replaced. He may just be a 3rd line winger but he's one of the best 3rd line wingers. He provides good secondary scoring, he's mediocre at worst when substituting on the 2nd line during injuries, and he fights at a level that borders on heavyweight. I don't think there will be many Moen-type players available in a typical free agency class, even if there are 1 or 2, Montreal won't be their first choice.

With respect to Halpern, I can't think of any scenario where Nokelainen is preferable to Halpern. I think Halpern is a comprehensively superior player. However, Bergevin went with Nokelainen. Since I can't think of anything that Nokelainen does better, I can't attribute that choice to any particular strategy. It may just be that Halpern was not going to end up here.

Finally, I'm not sure what under-27 players you want on the bottom-6. I see Ryan White and Lars Eller getting regular minutes. The rest should be left to dominate in Hamilton. Note that our farm system is not heavy in forwards.

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08-04-2012, 11:49 AM
  #541
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Finally, I'm not sure what under-27 players you want on the bottom-6. I see Ryan White and Lars Eller getting regular minutes. The rest should be left to dominate in Hamilton. Note that our farm system is not heavy in forwards.
Sorry, that's on me, I wasn't clear. I meant that a tank year is an opportunity to look for undervalued, young players from other teams. For example, Grabner with the Islanders. Honestly, I thought the Habs should have done this in the last 20 or 30 games of last season - give a player like (just an example, there were other candidates around the league, but we know for sure this one was available) Omark a look. If Bergevin considered this upcoming season a tank year, wouldn't it be a good opportunity to find some diamonds in the rough, rather than sign veterans to long deals?

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08-04-2012, 11:56 AM
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A question for the anti-tankers:

On February 25th, 2007, Bob Gainey traded 6'2", 220 lbs, top-4 dman Craig Rivet, with a 5th round draft choice, to the San Jose Sharks for Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick that would turn into Max Pacioretty. At the time, Rivet was coming off a 34 point season and had 16 points in 54 games, a 24 point pace. Rivet was a good enough player that the 107 point San Jose Sharks were willing to give up their best trading chip top acquire him: their 1st round draft pick in the upcoming draft.

The loss of Craig Rivet no doubt hurt the team, and the Habs were eliminated from the playoffs on the last game of the season, ending with 2 points less than the 8th place New York Islanders.

Would you be happier if the Habs had held on to Rivet, lost to Buffalo in the 1st round of the 2007 Stanley Cup playoffs, and not added Gorges and Pacioretty to the Habs system?


Last edited by DAChampion: 08-04-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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08-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #543
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Sorry, that's on me, I wasn't clear. I meant that a tank year is an opportunity to look for undervalued, young players from other teams. For example, Grabner with the Islanders. Honestly, I thought the Habs should have done this in the last 20 or 30 games of last season - give a player like (just an example, there were other candidates around the league, but we know for sure this one was available) Omark a look. If Bergevin considered this upcoming season a tank year, wouldn't it be a good opportunity to find some diamonds in the rough, rather than sign veterans to long deals?
You mean like Peter Mueller?

I think there should always be a few offensive projects on the team, as long as we're not true contenders.

Wasn't Omark done? Anyway that was on Gauthier, not Bergevin.

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08-04-2012, 12:02 PM
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A question for the anti-tankers:


On February 25th, 2007, Bob Gainey traded 6'2", 220 lbs, top-4 dman Craig Rivet, with a 5th round draft choice, to the San Jose Sharks for Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick that would turn into Max Pacioretty. At the time, Rivet was coming off a 34 point season and had 16 points in 54 games, a 24 point pace. Rivet was a good enough player that the 107 point San Jose Sharks were willing to give up their best trading chip top acquire him: their 1st round draft pick in the upcoming draft.

The loss of Craig Rivet hurt no doubt the team, and the Habs were eliminated from the playoffs on the last game of the season, ending with 2 points less than the 8th place New York Islanders.

Would you be happier if the Habs had held on to Rivet, lost to Buffalo in the 1st round of the 2007 Stanley Cup playoffs, and had not added Gorges and Pacioretty to the Habs system?
Who is our Rivet this year? None of Armstrong, Nokelainen, Bouillon or Budaj will bring a 2nd round pick, let alone a 1st, IMO. I think this is an argument for signing a player like Sykora to a one year deal and flipping him at the deadline, rather than long deals to veterans if the intention was to tank.

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08-04-2012, 12:05 PM
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You mean like Peter Mueller?

I think there should always be a few offensive projects on the team, as long as we're not true contenders.

Wasn't Omark done?
I'm not a Mueller fan specifically, but yeah, definitely players like him.

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08-04-2012, 12:05 PM
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Who is our Rivet this year? None of Armstrong, Nokelainen, Bouillon or Budaj will bring a 2nd round pick, let alone a 1st, IMO. I think this is an argument for signing a player like Sykora to a one year deal and flipping him at the deadline, rather than long deals to veterans if the intention was to tank.
If we give him privileged minutes: Tomas Kaberle.
Offensive dmen are highly valued on the trade market.

Further, your point is irrelevant. If the argument is good for Rivet then it's good for a less useful player who fetches a less good return, say Bourque for a 2nd rounder.

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08-04-2012, 12:08 PM
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If we give him privileged minutes: Tomas Kaberle.
Offensive dmen are highly valued on the trade market.

Further, your point is irrelevant. If the argument is good for Rivet then it's good for a less useful player who fetches a less good return, say Bourque for a 2nd rounder.
If you can give some examples of players with years left on their contracts flipped for picks at the deadline, then I'll admit I was wrong, but I don't think that's been the case. The deadline is really about trading players with expiring contracts for picks and prospects.

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08-04-2012, 12:34 PM
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If you can give some examples of players with years left on their contracts flipped for picks at the deadline, then I'll admit I was wrong, but I don't think that's been the case. The deadline is really about trading players with expiring contracts for picks and prospects.
Marek Zidlicky, another year, another 4 million dollar contract. He's a defensively weak dman who produces 40 points of offense in a good year, is 5'11" and 186 lbs. He is comprehensively inferior to Kaberle. He was exchanged for a sequence of spare parts and a 2nd rounder, and a 3rd rounder.

Francois Beauchemin, 6'0", 215 lbs, another year at ~4 million left on his contract. He was traded at the 2011 deadline for Joffrey Lupul, Jake Gardiner, and a conditional 4th rounder.

We should totally give privileged minutes to Kaberle.

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08-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #549
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Markov didn't play.
The Markov excuse has been going on four years now. You're being silly. Any strategy that involves him being healthy (let alone a key cog) is deeply flawed. We've seen that movie before and it didn't end well the other three times we bought the ticket. At what point do you stop touching the oven when you're warned that it's hot?

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Kaberle had a terrible season by his standards
Is that a joke? Are you seriously trying to point to Kaberle as a reason to be optimistic about this year? Please.

The man is one dimensional and it was stupid for us to even think about picking him up.

The fact that you're pointing to him now just shows how out of touch you are. No wonder you are against rebuilding, you don't understand that the we're just not that great a team. You may not understand this but adding him actually moves us away from a cup rather than closer to it. The only side benefit is that he sucks bad enough that we finished in last place high enough for a top pick.

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and Subban was sophomore slumping hard starting the season. We had coaching crisis, a GM that managed the team like Stalin (trading a player during a game, what a gong show), no momentum or hope of the playoffs and injuries to many key players.
And we had a career year from Cole, Max put up a great season with DD. Some things go right and others go wrong.

You're sitting there arguing that everything CAN go right... well, sure it can. But it doesn't usually work that way. Markov will probably be hurt, AGAIN. Kaberle will continue to age and we'll have more injuries along the way. It always happens that way to almost every team dude.
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Its not about making excuses but rather analysing the season and fixing the problems. What CGG says is that we have the tools to have a working powerplay which I reiterate was our greatest weakness last year along with weak support cast which Bergevin fixed trough free agency. The gong-show is fixed as well, even if Therrien is an average coach at least there is stability now. We have a solid core of players unlike most bottom 5 team, including a star goaltender. I'm not saying thats a great team now but we can keep adding to it in the next years and turn that group into a contender if we keep upgrading it.
This group will not contend. We aren't going to win cups with Gionta or Pleks or Kaberle or Markov. Maybe one of those guys will be around if we ever manage to assemble a team good enough to win but they won't be main cogs. They will be passengers by the time we get there (if we ever do.) The group that may contend will be led by the up and coming blueliners, Max, Galchenyuk Subban, Price as they get older and improve. Our older core will be well past their prime by then.

All the more reason to trade them NOW while they still have value. That's what we should've done with Koivu, Souray, Kovalev etc... but we didn't. And for some reason you want us to keep making this same mistake.

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Clawing into 8th place isn't a strategy, it's a result...
I don't buy that. Tons of folks on here subscribe to the strategy of 'just get in and see what happens' and that's what we've seen from management for the last 20 years. It's not a winning strategy and it's not going to get us a cup. But that's what we've tried to do.

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08-04-2012, 02:59 PM
  #550
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A question for the anti-tankers:

On February 25th, 2007, Bob Gainey traded 6'2", 220 lbs, top-4 dman Craig Rivet, with a 5th round draft choice, to the San Jose Sharks for Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick that would turn into Max Pacioretty. At the time, Rivet was coming off a 34 point season and had 16 points in 54 games, a 24 point pace. Rivet was a good enough player that the 107 point San Jose Sharks were willing to give up their best trading chip top acquire him: their 1st round draft pick in the upcoming draft.

The loss of Craig Rivet no doubt hurt the team, and the Habs were eliminated from the playoffs on the last game of the season, ending with 2 points less than the 8th place New York Islanders.

Would you be happier if the Habs had held on to Rivet, lost to Buffalo in the 1st round of the 2007 Stanley Cup playoffs, and not added Gorges and Pacioretty to the Habs system?
Too bad we didn't deal off Souray. Still don't understand that one.

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