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Habs select Sebastian Collberg - 33rd overall

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06-29-2012, 07:54 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by LaurentHabs View Post
On RDS, Collberg opens the door of possibly joining the CHL not this year, but next year.. Sounds stupid to me IMO. If ur staying in the SEL this year, stay until you make the NHL tbh
It depends though. Let's say he struggles next season and is a 4th liner all season again, then the CHL is probably better for him. On the other hand, let's say next season he provides good secondary scoring as a junior player in the SEL (15-20pts). He'll then be poised to have an increased role at 19 which would be much better than the CHL or even AHL IMO.

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08-04-2012, 06:44 PM
  #352
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hi, I have to consult the general HF Canadiens Cerberus for this:

Is Collberg a blue chip prospect? I think so, but other's don't.

What's the consensus here?

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08-04-2012, 06:58 PM
  #353
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I don't think so. He hasn't proven anything against men yet and a lot of first rounders are overrated from the get go and he's a second rounder ( although he was rated as a high first rounder until late in the season).

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08-04-2012, 07:05 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
I don't think so. He hasn't proven anything against men yet and a lot of first rounders are overrated from the get go and he's a second rounder ( although he was rated as a high first rounder until late in the season).
I didn't realize he fell pre-draft, thought he was consistently in the top 15ish. I didn't follow him too much because I thought we had no chance of taking him.

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08-04-2012, 07:51 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I didn't realize he fell pre-draft, thought he was consistently in the top 15ish. I didn't follow him too much because I thought we had no chance of taking him.
Bob McKenzie's final ranking was the first(maybe only one) that saw him drop close to the second round. Though, it has to be said that his rankings are only an consensus ranking from the opinion of scouts he knows.

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08-04-2012, 08:00 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I didn't realize he fell pre-draft, thought he was consistently in the top 15ish. I didn't follow him too much because I thought we had no chance of taking him.
The previous poster was wrong. Collberg was consistantly rated as a first rounder. He dropped a little because of his lack of production in the SEL and his lack of size.

It was a big surprise to see him fall out of the first round. NHL GM's aren't exactly the brightest collection of people as a whole and many of them simply try to copy the recent success of the Stanley Cup champions. The result this year was to draft for size which is why Teravainen and Collberg dropped so much.

I think Collberg was an absolute steal and I would take him over Grigorenko any day of the week.

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08-04-2012, 08:03 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The previous poster was wrong. Collberg was consistantly rated as a first rounder. He dropped a little because of his lack of production in the SEL and his lack of size.

It was a big surprise to see him fall out of the first round. NHL GM's aren't exactly the brightest collection of people as a whole and many of them simply try to copy the recent success of the Stanley Cup champions. The result this year was to draft for size which is why Teravainen and Collberg dropped so much.

I think Collberg was an absolute steal and I would take him over Grigorenko any day of the week.
I'm not sure if you mean to imply that Grigorenko is overrated, or if you're just praising Colberg by saying he's even better than the great Grigorenko.

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08-04-2012, 08:22 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm not sure if you mean to imply that Grigorenko is overrated, or if you're just praising Colberg by saying he's even better than the great Grigorenko.
Both.

IMO Grigorenko is too timid to be a piece of a championship team. He may very well put up some decent regular season stats but many of those points will come when the game is already decided. He is not a winner and should anchor a perennial playoff pretender for many years. Buffalo will end up having to overpay him due to his stats and it will be his bloated contract that will prevent his team from picking up the assets that they will require. IMO Grigorenko actually has a negative value because he will turn out to be an expensive piece that can't be translated into playoff success.

Collberg doesn't shy away from the dirty areas of the ice and has the skating and shooting abilities to be a difference maker.

People on this site are sometimes too buried in fanboy land or fantasy stats to truly recognize what it takes to build a winner. Bergevin was very clear in that he wants skill players but they also have to be character players. This was music to my ears and is the reason why he didn't sniff around a piece of garbage like Semin. Collberg has the intangibles of a winner which likely means that he will be a contributing factor of some sort to the resurgence of this franchise.

The Montreal Canadiens are supposed to win Stanley Cups........not entertain the immature fanboys looking to make a ridiculous youtube compilation of their favourite dekes.

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08-04-2012, 08:28 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Both.

IMO Grigorenko is too timid to be a piece of a championship team. He may very well put up some decent regular season stats but many of those points will come when the game is already decided. He is not a winner and should anchor a perennial playoff pretender for many years. Buffalo will end up having to overpay him due to his stats and it will be his bloated contract that will prevent his team from picking up the assets that they will require. IMO Grigorenko actually has a negative value because he will turn out to be an expensive piece that can't be translated into playoff success.

Collberg doesn't shy away from the dirty areas of the ice and has the skating and shooting abilities to be a difference maker.

People on this site are sometimes too buried in fanboy land or fantasy stats to truly recognize what it takes to build a winner. Bergevin was very clear in that he wants skill players but they also have to be character players. This was music to my ears and is the reason why he didn't sniff around a piece of garbage like Semin. Collberg has the intangibles of a winner which likely means that he will be a contributing factor of some sort to the resurgence of this franchise.

The Montreal Canadiens are supposed to win Stanley Cups.......]not entertain the immature fanboys looking to make a ridiculous youtube compilation of their favourite dekes.



How many games did you watch Grigorenko play this year?

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08-04-2012, 08:33 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Both.

IMO Grigorenko is too timid to be a piece of a championship team. He may very well put up some decent regular season stats but many of those points will come when the game is already decided. He is not a winner and should anchor a perennial playoff pretender for many years. Buffalo will end up having to overpay him due to his stats and it will be his bloated contract that will prevent his team from picking up the assets that they will require. IMO Grigorenko actually has a negative value because he will turn out to be an expensive piece that can't be translated into playoff success.
Imagine how much credibility you'd have if you had written that about Joe Thornton 15 years ago.

I didn't follow the Q in detail, but I though it was pretty startling that a guy that could go first ended up being drafted 12th. I do know the guy had Mononucleosis this year, so I wonder if the reason that people think he's lazy is simply that he was indeed lazy, as he had Mononucleosis. He might have been more interested in going to bed than in playing the games.

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08-04-2012, 08:35 PM
  #361
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I don't know if I'd call Collberg a bluechip prospect. Blue chip, in the original meaning meant certainty or security as well as value. Collberg has the value, as, to me, he projects as a first liner. But I don't think that's certain.

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08-04-2012, 08:36 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by scrowe21 View Post
How many games did you watch Grigorenko play this year?
I don't know???? 10 give or take??

The funny thing is that many of the scouts who have watched most of his games seemed to come away with the exact same conclusion about his work ethic and cowardice on the ice. I was absolutely disgusted at his compete level and passiveness.

He clearly is very skilled but he may be the softest player I have ever watched play.

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08-04-2012, 08:44 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Imagine how much credibility you'd have if you had written that about Joe Thornton 15 years ago.

I didn't follow the Q in detail, but I though it was pretty startling that a guy that could go first ended up being drafted 12th. I do know the guy had Mononucleosis this year, so I wonder if the reason that people think he's lazy is simply that he was indeed lazy, as he had Mononucleosis. He might have been more interested in going to bed than in playing the games.
I've had mono before and didn't even know that I had it. This was clearly the case with Grigorenko as he didn't even bother getting it checked out during the season. To be honest I question the fact that he even had mono at all. Sounds like the perfect excuse for being a bum. Even if he had mono it would only be an excuse for a lack of hustle, it still wouldn't explain his Tinkerbell act on the ice.

I argued before the draft with some of his silly fanboys and they are nowhere to be found after the draft. I expected him to fall out of the top ten and he did.

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08-04-2012, 08:45 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I don't know if I'd call Collberg a bluechip prospect. Blue chip, in the original meaning meant certainty or security as well as value. Collberg has the value, as, to me, he projects as a first liner. But I don't think that's certain.
Agreed.

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08-04-2012, 09:03 PM
  #365
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I've had mono before and didn't even know that I had it.
It affects different people differently. When I had it, I was out of commission. 95% of the North American population have the Epstein-Barr virus, but it only manifests itself as Mono about 30% of the time.

There's no way I could've played hockey during that month. However, at that point, I had recovered from a major surgery in the past year.

So, we don't really know how it affected him. Only he knows, and Buffalo fans are soon to find out.

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08-04-2012, 09:09 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
It affects different people differently. When I had it, I was out of commission. 95% of the North American population have the Epstein-Barr virus, but it only manifests itself as Mono about 30% of the time.

There's no way I could've played hockey during that month. However, at that point, I had recovered from a major surgery in the past year.

So, we don't really know how it affected him. Only he knows, and Buffalo fans are soon to find out.
I completely agree as I know people who have been very ill with mono. I was only pointing out that he clearly had a case closer to mine or he simply wouldn't have been on the ice and he would have sought medical attention long before the end of the season.

Like I said, mono wouldn't explain his aversion to any kind of contact or traffic. I love the fact that he is in Buffalo. Hopefully we meet them in the playoffs when they are relying on him to carry them.

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08-04-2012, 09:29 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
hi, I have to consult the general HF Canadiens Cerberus for this:

Is Collberg a blue chip prospect? I think so, but other's don't.

What's the consensus here?
He's not a blue chip prospect. I tend to see a blue-chip prospect as player with the pedigree and results. Collberg has the pedigree (WJC scoring star, SEL at 18), but until he starts putting up numbers in the SEL there are legitimate questions about his ability to play against bigger guys. I don't follow Swedish hockey, but from what I've heard he has what it takes to get to that next level. Still, until he does take that next step he is simply a very good prospect.

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08-04-2012, 09:50 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
He's not a blue chip prospect. I tend to see a blue-chip prospect as player with the pedigree and results. Collberg has the pedigree (WJC scoring star, SEL at 18), but until he starts putting up numbers in the SEL there are legitimate questions about his ability to play against bigger guys. I don't follow Swedish hockey, but from what I've heard he has what it takes to get to that next level. Still, until he does take that next step he is simply a very good prospect.
Correct. He could become a blue chip prospect as soon as next season, or he might stay a very good prospect, but right now, he can't be called a blue chip prospect...

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08-05-2012, 09:08 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Imagine how much credibility you'd have if you had written that about Joe Thornton 15 years ago.

I didn't follow the Q in detail, but I though it was pretty startling that a guy that could go first ended up being drafted 12th. I do know the guy had Mononucleosis this year, so I wonder if the reason that people think he's lazy is simply that he was indeed lazy, as he had Mononucleosis. He might have been more interested in going to bed than in playing the games.
As far as the "dropping" to 12, it's still important to note that he was the 4th forward picked overall, after Yakupov, Gally, and Forsberg. Those are the same three guys that were always going to be in competition for the first 4 forward picks. Was anyone really that surprised to see some of the worst defensive teams in the league pick from the very highly touted defensemen in this year's crop before Forsberg and Grigorenko got picked? NYI, Toronto, Anaheim, Winnipeg, and Tampa Bay were all among the worst in GA this past season (and have organizational question marks at the defense position to begin with), and what else did Minnesota and Pittsburgh really need to add?

And about this whole "work ethic" thing, I think a lot of scouts took the easy way out on this one - especially those who may have had relatively few viewings (and probably nearly 100% from this past Q season). A Russian kid has mono, and doesn't go flying/flopping/sliding all over the ice so he's "lazy". Look at every centre taken in the first round though, and tell me which one actually has a history of hardcore banging and crashing. He may not initiate a lot of contact, but ever seen opponents try to initiate physicality against him? Fairly amusing. He shrugged off the physical play from those in the Q like he was playing against Pee-Wee kids every time I saw him (don't know how many Quebec-Halifax games I missed this year, but it wasn't many - if any).

Some players just make the game look easy. If his coach (Roy) seems much happier with his work ethic than some scouts are, I'll take that on authority until I actually see a distinct lack of intensity at the next level. When you've got the size and quality of tools he does, and production to go with it, I think that's the most fair way to look at it until something actually manifests at the next level in a season not also marred by illness.

Getting back to Collberg, I think some people should reacquaint themselves with the SEL, the depth chart(s) of the team(s) they're commenting on, and how presence on a game day roster means far more than the stats line available at eliteprospects.com when it comes to 18 year olds (or 17, as was the case when Collberg started his second stint with Frolunda's top team last year) . IMO Collberg is pretty close to a blue chip prospect - if not a "certified" one. Close enough that I kinda laugh at those in here saying right now that he definitively isn't.

Some are going to wait until they see some kind of ridiculous offensive numbers on a stats website before they jump fully on board. For a bit of perspective, Daniel Alfredsson joined Frolunda as a 180 lbs 19 year old RWer, and didn't get drafted until he was 21. We're talking about a guy with all that skill and drive who joined that same organization at 17 (or was it actually 16?), and was already targeted for drafting at 18 despite his lack of SEL exposure so far. Doubters are well within their rights, I suppose, but those who have had extended chances to view his skills have little doubt that he'll find a prominent role in the NHL before long.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 08-05-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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08-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
hi, I have to consult the general HF Canadiens Cerberus for this:

Is Collberg a blue chip prospect? I think so, but other's don't.

What's the consensus here?
Personally I never cared for the term blue chip, since everyones definition could vary widly. If you mean is Collberg a safe bet to be a solid NHLer, then I'm not sure I would call him a "blue chip", since we need to see how his game translates to North America, if his lack of size will hamper him or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
He's not a blue chip prospect. I tend to see a blue-chip prospect as player with the pedigree and results. Collberg has the pedigree (WJC scoring star, SEL at 18), but until he starts putting up numbers in the SEL there are legitimate questions about his ability to play against bigger guys. I don't follow Swedish hockey, but from what I've heard he has what it takes to get to that next level. Still, until he does take that next step he is simply a very good prospect.
I do wonder how things would have went if he didn't spend most of the season with Frolunda, if he instead spent the full year in juniors in the J20 racking up the points. In his previous season, it went a bit like this past one, where he spent time between 3 teams (J18, J20 and SEL) just 5 games in the SEL but he was a 16 year old for most of the year. But he's put up over a ppg in each of the two junior leagues he's played in over these last two years, so had he played all year in juniors and perhaps put up 50-60+ points it he would be more hyped.

Even last year he was 17 for most of the season since he turned 18 in late Feb which is near the end of the SEL season. Hopefully next season he can put up some points, but we'll need to see how much impact the experience of playing in the SEL for 5 games as a 16/17 year old and 41 games as a 17/18 year old will have on him as he progresses over time.

So for me, i don't mind that he's not really a bluechip, as he will have time to show what he can do and hopefully getting to play at such high levels while at such a young age, between his international play and SEL experience hopefully he can turn into something very solid for us in time.

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08-05-2012, 11:28 AM
  #371
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Trade Colberg to move up in this year's draft?

It looks like we got a total steal in Colberg this year. Apparently this year's draft is going to be better. How much trade value does Colberg have? Would we be able to trade him away to another team for a potentially better pick??

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08-05-2012, 11:54 AM
  #372
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It looks like we got a total steal in Colberg this year. Apparently this year's draft is going to be better. How much trade value does Colberg have? Would we be able to trade him away to another team for a potentially better pick??
Unless he's required to move up to grab MacKinnon or Jones, I wouldn't bother trading him.

This kid has first-line potential, has one of if not the best release in the draft. I definitely don't trade him unless its for an overpayment or for a package of a potential stud like I listed above.

We should be happy he slid to us, because we might just have created 2/3 of our first line 3-4 years down the road with him and Galchenyuk.

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08-05-2012, 12:00 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
It looks like we got a total steal in Colberg this year. Apparently this year's draft is going to be better. How much trade value does Colberg have? Would we be able to trade him away to another team for a potentially better pick??
So ... we draft a total steal and you want to trade him ?

If he's a steal, keep him!

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08-05-2012, 12:00 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
It looks like we got a total steal in Colberg this year. Apparently this year's draft is going to be better. How much trade value does Colberg have? Would we be able to trade him away to another team for a potentially better pick??
Why would a team trade a potentially better pick for Collberg? This makes no sense. Unless he's a necessary piece in a package deal for a bigger player, there's no reason to trade him.

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08-05-2012, 12:04 PM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
It looks like we got a total steal in Colberg this year. Apparently this year's draft is going to be better. How much trade value does Colberg have? Would we be able to trade him away to another team for a potentially better pick??
At this point you're likely trading him at the bottom of the market.
The reason it's good to find "sleepers" in a draft is because you get a
higher value asset, at a "cheaper" market price. And if this is true of
Collberg, trading him at someone else's estimate of his value is counter-
productive.
And with this particular player, there is a greater than average
chance that his true value would not manifest itself before next year's
draft.

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