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08-04-2012, 03:06 PM
  #176
Jay Cee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
Let's be real here. Kesler has good defensive hockey IQ. but let's not give him much kudo points for having offensive IQ

He was drafted as a defensive player, a hardworking one. That's his base.
I'm glad someone said something like that because it's so true to why Kesler is treated how he is.

Kesler was drafted with 3rd line upside and no matter how impressive he is offensively, perplexedly some people want to put him back on the 3rd line. It's like people cannot get in their heads that players can outperform their scout projected potential.

Kesler has nothing to prove as a playmaker or a goal scorer. He simply has had average linemates at best most of his time here.

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08-04-2012, 03:16 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Jay Cee View Post
I'm glad someone said something like that because it's so true to why Kesler is treated how he is.

Kesler was drafted with 3rd line upside and no matter how impressive he is offensively, perplexedly some people want to put him back on the 3rd line. It's like people cannot get in their heads that players can outperform their scout projected potential.

Kesler has nothing to prove as a playmaker or a goal scorer. He simply has had average linemates at best most of his time here.
Me & you have a different theory on human behavior

I just don't believe u can change the basis of who a person is. You can improve on it, but you can't change the core.

Kesler just doesn't see the ice that well when he's on the offense.

It goes back to the Naslund thing. When you're the star player, you're suppose to make your average linemates better

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08-04-2012, 03:18 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
Me & you have a different theory on human behavior

I just don't believe u can change the basis of who a person is. You can improve on it, but you can't change the core.

Kesler just doesn't see the ice that well when he's on the offense.

It goes back to the Naslund thing. When you're the star player, you're suppose to make your average linemates better
Exhibit A: Mason Raymond
Exhibit B: Mikael Samuelsson

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08-04-2012, 03:20 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Jay Cee View Post
Exhibit A: Mason Raymond
Exhibit B: Mikael Samuelsson
Obviously Raymond + Samuelsson > Kesler.
There's no other reason why Kesler got 50 assists that season.

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08-04-2012, 03:23 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
When you're the star player, you're suppose to make your average linemates better
He does. Even if he doesn't offensively (I think he does, but you're entitled to your opinion) is stalwart defensive play allows his linemates to take more chances offensively and excel defensively. Kesler also takes up the lion's share of difficult PK minutes, giving his linemates (and his other teammates) easier minutes.

How is he not making his linemates better?

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08-04-2012, 03:26 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
With both Doan and Arnott, I'd like to see:

Sedins - Burrows
Higgins - Kes - Doan
Booth - Arnott - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Raymond/Kassian
Booth defencive game is horrible and to put him on the ice at the same time as Arnott with his lack of speed is a pretty scary checking line, Scary not in a good way either. Hansen and Booth have shown chemistry from a offencive standpoint.

It's nice to see someone here gives appreciation to Higgins skillset for a change. Higgins and Lapierre are probably our 2 most underappreciated players I have noticed in here.

Kesler is looking at a December come back so IMO

D.Sedin-H.Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Higgins-Doan
Lapierre-Arnott-Hansen
Raymond-Malhotra-Kassian

Although that 4th line is Terrible. Hopefully we get a few suprises in camp. Maybe Raymond can stay on his skates and win some battles for loose pucks more often. Kassian with the weight loss and being a little more comfortable with our system and with his teamates. A healthy Pinnizzotto, I mean there were 6 or 7 teams bidding for his services a year ago. Weise being a little more consistant with his physicallity. And the emergence of some young guys with the wolves or coming out of junior.

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08-04-2012, 03:30 PM
  #182
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Not everything is so black and white. I don't doubt his defensive prowess.

But he doesn't playmake in a way consistently that makes Taylor Pyatt look like a legitimate top 6 forward

Some people have natural offensive talent at the NHL level, i just don't see Kesler as one of those people. He needs his physical talents and determination to make it offensively bigtime in the NHL

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08-04-2012, 04:37 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
Me & you have a different theory on human behavior

I just don't believe u can change the basis of who a person is. You can improve on it, but you can't change the core.

Kesler just doesn't see the ice that well when he's on the offense.

It goes back to the Naslund thing. When you're the star player, you're suppose to make your average linemates better
HE HAS NEVER PLAYED WITH AN ABOVE AVERAGE PLAYER.

Except in the Olympics when he played with Patrick Kane and Zach Parise.

Parise was 3rd in tournament scoring. Kane scored 5 points in 6 games. Playing with "3rd liner" Kesler.

When healthy, Kesler is a force offensively.

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08-04-2012, 05:27 PM
  #184
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Kesler never played with Parise. Kane, yes, but Dustin Brown was his other winger.

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08-04-2012, 05:55 PM
  #185
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A bit off-topic but does anyone think Kassian could be converted to a Center position?

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08-04-2012, 06:56 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Peter View Post
A bit off-topic but does anyone think Kassian could be converted to a Center position?
I think that if you want a player to develop to their full potential, they should be used at their natural position. On top of that, it's much more common for a centre to convert to the wing than the other way around.

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08-04-2012, 07:13 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
I was responding to a specific poster. I wouldn't ever assume that this message board could reach a consensus and agree on anything.
I feel the same way as he does.
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
I think we're in agreement that Booth was hopeless playing with Henrik Sedin and was overall not a good match for Kesler. Although I'm also not too optimistic about Booth working on the 3rd line, I figure the experiment is worth a shot. The team seems to be stuck with the guy for now, so it may as well explore all its options with him. It's possible that his speed would complement Hansen's. In any case, if it turns out that Booth is a poor option for both the 2nd and 3rd lines, then I think the team is better off improving the 2nd line at the expense of the 3rd.
We are not. If he doesn't improve from last year, it's true, he doesn't really fit anywhere on the team, but he sure as hell is a better fit with guys like Higgins and Kesler than he is with the Sedins or Hansen. There's plenty of room and potential for Kesler and Booth to gel.

Booth with the Sedins or Booth with Hansen on a 3rd line on the other hand is a lost cause, IMO.

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08-04-2012, 07:26 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
Actually... my claims are backed up by every year except the one that he got 50 assists.

You seem to be holding onto 1 season and passing it off as the norm. Which is clearly not the case. You're arguing with the smallest sample size possible. Which holds really no argument unless you have other Canuck fans high fiving you and saying Kesler is the best.
The numbers may not completely reflect it (30+ assists isn't too shabby either way, though), but Kesler's passing ability was fine when he played with Sundin/Demitra and when he scored 40 goals.

Calling his 50 assist season an anomaly is just about as fair as calling his 40 goal season one. He learned to pass at about the same point in which he learned to shoot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
Me & you have a different theory on human behavior

I just don't believe u can change the basis of who a person is. You can improve on it, but you can't change the core.

Kesler just doesn't see the ice that well when he's on the offense.

It goes back to the Naslund thing. When you're the star player, you're suppose to make your average linemates better
Are we seriously arguing that Naslund wasn't a solid playmaker? Even later in his career?

I don't think anyone's arguing that Kesler's a brilliant star playmaker like the Sedins are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDiver View Post
HE HAS NEVER PLAYED WITH AN ABOVE AVERAGE PLAYER.

Except in the Olympics when he played with Patrick Kane and Zach Parise.

Parise was 3rd in tournament scoring. Kane scored 5 points in 6 games. Playing with "3rd liner" Kesler.

When healthy, Kesler is a force offensively.
Demitra - Sundin - Kesler

And by all indications, that year he was a very well-rounded offensive player. Not a sniper by any means.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 08-04-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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08-04-2012, 10:11 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Demitra - Sundin - Kesler

And by all indications, that year he was a very well-rounded offensive player. Not a sniper by any means.
Think that's where Sundin earned at least *some* of his $10 million (yeah, yeah, I know it was pro-rated...) contract. Sundin seemed to have a positive influence on Kesler's development (re: offensive side of the game).

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08-04-2012, 10:39 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by barney gumble View Post
think that's where sundin earned at least *some* of his $10 million (yeah, yeah, i know it was pro-rated...) contract. Sundin seemed to have a positive influence on kesler's development (re: Offensive side of the game).
season ahl salary nhl salary p. Bonuses s. Bonus cap hit
2008-09 $5,626,500 $5,626,500 $0 $4,000,000 $8,210,600

???

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08-04-2012, 10:41 PM
  #191
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I'll never understand why people have a problem with Sundin's contract. We simply gave him all of our remaining cap space that was left over and we weren't going to use anyways so that he would almost definitely sign with us. It would have been a great move regardless of how he performed.

People act like we're paying higher taxes because of that contract or something.

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08-04-2012, 10:42 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by John Swartzwelder View Post
season ahl salary nhl salary p. Bonuses s. Bonus cap hit
2008-09 $5,626,500 $5,626,500 $0 $4,000,000 $8,210,600

???
I did say it was a $10 million contract that was pro-rated didn't I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
I'll never understand why people have a problem with Sundin's contract. We simply gave him all of our remaining cap space that was left over and we weren't going to use anyways so that he would almost definitely sign with us. It would have been a great move regardless of how he performed.
Problem was the 2nd year that if Sundin was greedy; could've taken it and that would've been a problem for the following season.

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08-04-2012, 10:45 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I did say it was a $10 million contract that was pro-rated didn't I?


Problem was the 2nd year that if Sundin was greedy; could've taken it and that would've been a problem for the following season.
if gillis had offered raymond ten million it could have been a problem too. down with gillis

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08-04-2012, 10:59 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I did say it was a $10 million contract that was pro-rated didn't I?


Problem was the 2nd year that if Sundin was greedy; could've taken it and that would've been a problem for the following season.
But we didn't get him for a second year so who cares? We're getting upset that he didn't earn something hypothetical that he didn't actually receive, and also something else that didn't cost the team additional assets or any sacrifice to be made. It's silly. Heck, he didn't play a second year so you can't even assuredly say that he wouldn't have earned it!

It's like in the pre-salary-cap era, getting upset that an average New York Ranger didn't actually earn his 10 million dollars. It doesn't matter.

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08-04-2012, 11:02 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
But we didn't get him for a second year so who cares? We're getting upset that he didn't earn something hypothetical that he didn't actually receive, and also something else that didn't cost the team additional assets or any sacrifice to be made. It's silly.

It's like in the pre-salary-cap era, getting upset that an average New York Ranger didn't actually earn his 10 million dollars.
It was a gamble that Gillis took that could have backfired badly; just because it didn't doesn't make it suddenly make it good IMHO.

Sundin was one of the better forwards in the playoff series that mattered that season (against the Black Hawks). He earned his money there IMHO. Too bad he was of the few forwards that did.

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08-04-2012, 11:08 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
It was a gamble that Gillis took that could have backfired badly; just because it didn't doesn't make it suddenly make it good IMHO.

Sundin was one of the better forwards in the playoff series that mattered that season (against the Black Hawks). He earned his money there IMHO. Too bad he was of the few forwards that did.
It makes it a non-issue, clearly.

Getting upset over something that didn't happen is silly.

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08-04-2012, 11:32 PM
  #197
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33 games withe winding 17-17-24 PTA or about 40 goals and 40 assists in scull reg aeason

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08-04-2012, 11:40 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
I feel the same way as he does.
We are not. If he doesn't improve from last year, it's true, he doesn't really fit anywhere on the team, but he sure as hell is a better fit with guys like Higgins and Kesler than he is with the Sedins or Hansen. There's plenty of room and potential for Kesler and Booth to gel.

Booth with the Sedins or Booth with Hansen on a 3rd line on the other hand is a lost cause, IMO.
I guess I inferred too much from some of your previous posts regarding Booth's play.

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08-05-2012, 12:09 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
It was a gamble that Gillis took that could have backfired badly; just because it didn't doesn't make it suddenly make it good IMHO.

Sundin was one of the better forwards in the playoff series that mattered that season (against the Black Hawks). He earned his money there IMHO. Too bad he was of the few forwards that did.
He made a gamble and he won, PERIOD. You can ***** all you want but at the end of a day he won his bet and that is that. You can bring up what could have hypothetically happen but then that doesn't really change the current reality does it?

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08-05-2012, 01:25 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
I guess I inferred too much from some of your previous posts regarding Booth's play.
I think he had a dreadful playoff, and an awful final stretch of the season, but I've always felt that he was even worse/hopeless fit with the Sedins and was never going to be a viable option defensively. I probably sound more hard on him than I actually am because Canuck fans seem to excuse him of blame for some reason and it annoys me. He played significantly worse than Raymond in the playoffs.

But there were definitely some moments early on where he clicked with the second line and looked like he and Kesler could work up some potential for chemistry. He wasn't exactly doing nothing when the AMEX line was firing on all cylinders. At some point, Kesler's going to have get better to, and who knows how that will effect Booth's play.

I actually think that so far, he's shown the most chemistry with Higgins and Hodgson, so maybe adding a puck distributor would help him.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 08-05-2012 at 01:32 AM.
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