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Old
08-03-2012, 08:05 AM
  #76
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
I don't think you have seen JT play too many games by all the comments you made about him. He doesn't have St.Louis on his line.
So anyone who thinks Stamkos has more value than Tavares has never seen Tavares play? Have you seen Stamkos play?

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08-03-2012, 08:41 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So anyone who thinks Stamkos has more value than Tavares has never seen Tavares play? Have you seen Stamkos play?
No, I was talking about the other comments he made and he said Stamkos is much more valuable than Tavares. He said he wouldn't trade one of the Sedins for Tavares, which is insane.

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08-03-2012, 10:29 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
It would probably take this to get NYI to consider as they'd still probably be losing the best player in the deal barring a career ending injury. Neither team would take this

Tavares
Dipietro

for
Schneider
Kesler
Edler
Sedins
possibly +


Sedins get extremely favourable offensive zone starts in the last few years and are declining, I can see them scoring 60-90 points next season each. Kesler has dealt with a lot of injuries and has had one exceptional year. Edler is a ufa, and isn't really a #1 atm, maybe a #2 if he plays with a solid defensive d-man. Schneider still has to prove he can be a starter look at Brian Elliot as a 50/50 starter vs. a full time starter. Tavares carries his team almost by himself and has since his rookie season, granted not a great team, but terrible management.
Ok Scratch what I said before. This is the worst trade I have seen yet.


Last edited by spiny norman: 08-03-2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason: not needed
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Old
08-03-2012, 10:37 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
No, I was talking about the other comments he made and he said Stamkos is much more valuable than Tavares. He said he wouldn't trade one of the Sedins for Tavares, which is insane.
I wouldn't trade one of the Sedins for Tavares either.

I wouldn't trade one of the Sedins period.

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08-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #80
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Potential is not fact.

JT has the potential to be a franchise player. He is in Fact a great young Star on the rise. This season he could blow out his ACL and never reach higher than a 65-85 point player. He could also POTENTIALY become a top 5 scoring center. Lots of cases for both sides of the argument.

Fact The Sedins kesler and Edler are a core of a stanly cup contender. Next year they will be between 15-25 points ahead of the islanders in the standings. You dont break that up to gain any asset even one as coveted as JT.

Potentially the islanders in 2-5 years if there young high end picks pan out could be where Van is today. At that time they wont trade there stars for the next potential phenom.

Lastly the sedins style of play is unique. They dont rely on physical speed or strength as much as most players. They have the highest level of hockey iq and vision and use skill to make plays 99 % of the league cant. This platform lends itself to a slow start to a career but a longer one. I can see the sedins putting up 70-90 for the next 5 - 7 years np.

When JT starts winning some hardware or making his team climb the standings he then can be in that conversation. I believe he will get there and i hope NYI climb up as it is a storied franchise.

Ad the end of the tale... Silly OP

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08-03-2012, 01:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Potential is not fact.

JT has the potential to be a franchise player. He is in Fact a great young Star on the rise. This season he could blow out his ACL and never reach higher than a 65-85 point player. He could also POTENTIALY become a top 5 scoring center. Lots of cases for both sides of the argument.

Fact The Sedins kesler and Edler are a core of a stanly cup contender. Next year they will be between 15-25 points ahead of the islanders in the standings. You dont break that up to gain any asset even one as coveted as JT.

Potentially the islanders in 2-5 years if there young high end picks pan out could be where Van is today. At that time they wont trade there stars for the next potential phenom.

Lastly the sedins style of play is unique. They dont rely on physical speed or strength as much as most players. They have the highest level of hockey iq and vision and use skill to make plays 99 % of the league cant. This platform lends itself to a slow start to a career but a longer one. I can see the sedins putting up 70-90 for the next 5 - 7 years np.

When JT starts winning some hardware or making his team climb the standings he then can be in that conversation. I believe he will get there and i hope NYI climb up as it is a storied franchise.

Ad the end of the tale... Silly OP
I don't disagree with some of what you are saying but I do think its funny that you are being condensing about what is and isn't a fact while it can be interpreted that you are saying its a "fact" that the Canucks will finish 15-25 points ahead of the Islanders next year.

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Old
08-03-2012, 11:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I don't disagree with some of what you are saying but I do think its funny that you are being condensing about what is and isn't a fact while it can be interpreted that you are saying its a "fact" that the Canucks will finish 15-25 points ahead of the Islanders next year.
You have to admit that's not without precedent.

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08-04-2012, 12:42 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
2 of the last 3 art ross winners and mvps, A young #1/2 defenseman, a guy who scored 40 goals and won a selke a year ago, a young goalie who has potential to be a top 5 goalie, and another piece. Tavares is amazing, but he has done nothing to justify a return like that. I think this would be the worst trade in nhl history. Stamkos and JT were born in the same year, and Stamkos has a much higher ppg, has won 2 Richards, scored 60 goals, and has been nominated for the Hart and Lindsay 3 times each. Tavares hasn't won, or been nominated for 1 major award. Playmaking centers are usually more valuable than Goalscoring centers, but Stamkos is by far the best goalscorer in the nhl, and I don't think Tavares is a top 5 playmaker.
Nope, one MVP in which Henrik was behind Crosby, and Ovechkin and probably should have one. Health has been on their side, if Crosby played the full season, or Ovechkin didn't miss 10 games they wouldn't even be close. Look at the Sedin's powerplay/offensive zone time, they bring almost nothing defensively, and are declining offensively. One exceptional season. Edler's more of a #3 atm since he still has awful descision making, and Schneider I can't see him being anymore than a borderline top 10. Kesler probably had a career season he will never even approach again, either because he doesn't have the talent, or because of injuries.

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Old
08-04-2012, 12:54 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Nope, one MVP in which Henrik was behind Crosby, and Ovechkin and probably should have one. Health has been on their side, if Crosby played the full season, or Ovechkin didn't miss 10 games they wouldn't even be close. Look at the Sedin's powerplay/offensive zone time, they bring almost nothing defensively, and are declining offensively. One exceptional season. Edler's more of a #3 atm since he still has awful descision making, and Schneider I can't see him being anymore than a borderline top 10. Kesler probably had a career season he will never even approach again, either because he doesn't have the talent, or because of injuries.
Damien Cox, is that you?

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08-04-2012, 01:52 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
He could also POTENTIALY become a top 5 scoring center.
Well, he is. He was tied for 4th last season with non other then Henrik Sedin.
Quote:
Lastly the sedins style of play is unique. They dont rely on physical speed or strength as much as most players. They have the highest level of hockey iq and vision and use skill to make plays 99 % of the league cant. This platform lends itself to a slow start to a career but a longer one. I can see the sedins putting up 70-90 for the next 5 - 7 years np.
Weird, you can relate those skills and styles to Tavares, in fact, a lot do.
Quote:
When JT starts winning some hardware or making his team climb the standings he then can be in that conversation. I believe he will get there and i hope NYI climb up as it is a storied franchise.
John Tavares alone can not carry the Isles up the standings. It's a team sport, he can't be out there the whole game, he can't be in every spot at once. I'm getting tired of hearing this, in his third season he was 4th among centers and 7th among everyone in scoring, how much more can he do?

He needs better secondary scoring so that if his line isn't producing they aren't getting shut out. He needs better D that can actually move the puck up the ice, he needs more stability in net with no 3 goalie rotations or Red Light Ricky in net. Isles got Lubo and have Nabby on another year so some of it is being fixed. There are long term solutions for all three.

Do people rag on Stamkos for not being able to carry his team to the playoffs this past season? Of course not, he did all he could and ended up hitting the 60 goal mark.

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08-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kevin27NYI View Post
Well, he is. He was tied for 4th last season with non other then Henrik Sedin.

Weird, you can relate those skills and styles to Tavares, in fact, a lot do.

John Tavares alone can not carry the Isles up the standings. It's a team sport, he can't be out there the whole game, he can't be in every spot at once. I'm getting tired of hearing this, in his third season he was 4th among centers and 7th among everyone in scoring, how much more can he do?

He needs better secondary scoring so that if his line isn't producing they aren't getting shut out. He needs better D that can actually move the puck up the ice, he needs more stability in net with no 3 goalie rotations or Red Light Ricky in net. Isles got Lubo and have Nabby on another year so some of it is being fixed. There are long term solutions for all three.



Do people rag on Stamkos for not being able to carry his team to the playoffs this past season? Of course not, he did all he could and ended up hitting the 60 goal mark.
Stop being hypocritical,

I gave full credit too what JT has acomplished to date. He has had ONE ppg season and is a star young player.

But if he gets credit for being a ppg player then Kesler gets credit for being a selke winning 40 goal scorer..

You cant have it both ways either you have to put the numbers up consistently (sedins) or you get credit based on one years performance/potential (kesler/JT)

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08-04-2012, 12:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I don't disagree with some of what you are saying but I do think its funny that you are being condensing about what is and isn't a fact while it can be interpreted that you are saying its a "fact" that the Canucks will finish 15-25 points ahead of the Islanders next year.
Last 5 Seasons:

Van: 88 100 103 117 111
NYI: 79 61 79 73 79

= +9 +39 +24 +43 +32

Forcasting ahead even in NYI improve by 6-10 points and Van loses 6-10 points my assesment is reasonable.

Not trying to insult but my assumptions are based in fact. Just FYI over the last 5 years its an average of 29.4 points per season...

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08-04-2012, 08:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Stop being hypocritical,

I gave full credit too what JT has acomplished to date. He has had ONE ppg season and is a star young player.

But if he gets credit for being a ppg player then Kesler gets credit for being a selke winning 40 goal scorer..

You cant have it both ways either you have to put the numbers up consistently (sedins) or you get credit based on one years performance/potential (kesler/JT)
The Sedins aren't consistent. And no Kesler scoring 40 goals is nothing like JT being a ppg . Do you understand what a prospect is? Besides Kesler has never put up numbers that give the impression that he could score 40 goals without it being a complete fluke, JT has not yet met his potential and is steadily improving. Kesler does NOT have the potential to be a consistent 40 goal scorer anymore than Cheechoo has the potential to be a 56 goal scorer. Kesler has had more than 26 goals once, and more than 70 points twice and has had a long history of injuries, his 41 goal season was a fluke and with his injuries he'll probably end up not coming even close to that.

And apparently I'm totally negative for looking at things like stats, and player history for my observations and not NHL 12/13?

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08-04-2012, 08:28 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Stop being hypocritical,

I gave full credit too what JT has acomplished to date. He has had ONE ppg season and is a star young player.

But if he gets credit for being a ppg player then Kesler gets credit for being a selke winning 40 goal scorer..

You cant have it both ways either you have to put the numbers up consistently (sedins) or you get credit based on one years performance/potential (kesler/JT)
Way different.

Kesler hit 40g once out of his 7 yr NHL career, but quickly went back to his normal scoring rate the next season. He did this as a 26 yr old.

Tavares on the other hand had steadily improved his point totals since his rookie year, we don't know if he regresses. He did this as a 21 yr old. It's pretty likely that Tavares at 21 hasn't peaked, he has 100 pt upside.

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08-04-2012, 08:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Potential is not fact.

JT has the potential to be a franchise player. He is in Fact a great young Star on the rise. This season he could blow out his ACL and never reach higher than a 65-85 point player. He could also POTENTIALY become a top 5 scoring center. Lots of cases for both sides of the argument.
He's already there.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

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08-05-2012, 06:48 AM
  #91
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I've been waiting to read Canuck fans comeback, to your post



.......*crickets*.........

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08-05-2012, 09:52 AM
  #92
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I've been waiting to read Canuck fans comeback, to your post



.......*crickets*.........
I agree he could be a consistent top 5 scorer in the league. That's why he would be getting a return of a selke winning centre, a young goalie who ousted Luongo from his job as starter, a 1st round pick, and a top 4 defenseman who admittedly is a bit of a reclamation project, not to mention you dump Rick Dipietro's contract.

I know Tavares would never be traded, but in a hypothetical wotld where he demanded one, that's a pretty solid return.

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08-05-2012, 10:36 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I agree he could be a consistent top 5 scorer in the league. That's why he would be getting a return of a selke winning centre, a young goalie who ousted Luongo from his job as starter, a 1st round pick, and a top 4 defenseman who admittedly is a bit of a reclamation project, not to mention you dump Rick Dipietro's contract.

I know Tavares would never be traded, but in a hypothetical wotld where he demanded one, that's a pretty solid return.
Canuck fans ignore a few things..


1.Isles in a youth movement, would not trade 21 yr old Tavares for key players 10 yrs older: Sedins.

2.Isles budget would mean they would not take soon to be ufas, in exchange for a franchise center,starting a reasonable 6 yr extension: Edler or Schneider.

3.DiPietro has played a total of 47 games in 4 seasons. He is a good bet to be forced into medical retirement. Insurance will pay the bulk of his salary and the isles will pay the remaining salary.

4.Wang has shown he is willing to buyout bad contracts.$1.5m per is not a huge amount.

5.No interest in taking on Ballard as key to any major trade,with his disappointing, erratic play + $4m salary.

I'm not saying the Canucks don't offer up top talent, I'm saying the two two teams are not a good fit. Isles won't want players 10 yrs older, soon to be ufas or so much salary.

and that late first round pick, holds the least amount of interest.

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08-05-2012, 10:42 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Canuck fans ignore a few things..


1.Isles in a youth movement, would not trade 21 yr old Tavares for key players 10 yrs older: Sedins.

2.Isles budget would mean they would not take soon to be ufas, in exchange for a franchise center,starting a reasonable 6 yr extension: Edler or Schneider.

3.DiPietro has played a total of 47 games in 4 seasons. He is a good bet to be forced into medical retirement. Insurance will pay the bulk of his salary and the isles will pay the remaining salary.

4.Wang has shown he is willing to buyout bad contracts.$1.5m per is not a huge amount.

5.No interest in taking on Ballard as key to any major trade,with his disappointing, erratic play + $4m salary.

I'm not saying the Canucks don't offer up top talent, I'm saying the two two teams are not a good fit. Isles won't want players 10 yrs older, soon to be ufas or so much salary.

and that late first round pick, holds the least amount of interest.
I was referring to Kesler, 27, and Schneider was recently signed to a 3 year deal.

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08-05-2012, 10:54 AM
  #95
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This isn't too far off base, IMO. But the Islanders simply have no reason to move Tavares. As many expect, he will probably be within the top 5-10 players within the next year or so. I also think, in the event the Islanders were to make it known they want move Tavares, they would get an offer similar to this or probably better. Tavares is the face of their franchise, so it would be very hard to pry him off of Long Island.

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08-05-2012, 11:02 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
This isn't meant to be a realistic proposal, more of a hypothetical, is this enough value to do it kind of thing.

To NYI:
Kesler
Schneider
Van 1st
Ballard

To Van:
Tavares
DiPietro

To Vancouver fans, I think this makes us a better team(as hopefully Lack will have a similar development to Schneider, and Tavares is younger and better than Kesler, and Ballard isn't needed)

To NYI you receive a Selke winning centre, the goalie that outplayed Luongo, a top 4 defenseman, and a late 1st, as well as dropping one of the worst contracts in the league.

Again, unrealistic, but is this enough overpayment to make you consider?
I'm a Canucks fan, and there's no way in hell I'd pull the trigger on that. Schneider's value is going to skyrocket next year, it makes no sense to trade him before it does.

Kesler is one of the best shutdown centers in the league, and has shown he can also be an offensive force by putting up 40 goals.

Tavares is a potential franchise player, no doubt in my mind he'll put up 100+ for a few seasons, but he will never be as complete as Kesler. He's not a great skater, he doesn't have a seperation gear or explosiveness, no physical edge to his game, and he doesn't have great size, all of which is necessary to be an elite 2 way center. Yes. he's already quite a bit better than kesler offensively, but there's more to the game than that.

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08-05-2012, 11:10 AM
  #97
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I was referring to Kesler, 27, and Schneider was recently signed to a 3 year deal.
I didn't realize Schneider had sign a 3 yr extension. I'd still rather have 6 signed yrs of Tavares, over 3 signed yrs of Schneider.

And I don't want to get into a pissing contest, over whether Tavares or Kesler will be more productive over the next 6 seasons. I'd rather have 21 yr old Tavares. If Vancouver fans prefer Kesler, that's cool.

I gladly take my chances that one of Nilson/Poulin/Koskinen will develop into a quality #1.
Let Wang worry over insurance pays RD's forced retirement or whether Wang pays him $1.5m per. Sometimes you make bad signings and have to swallow those contracts.

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08-05-2012, 11:15 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by EvoLu7ioN View Post
I'm a Canucks fan, and there's no way in hell I'd pull the trigger on that. Schneider's value is going to skyrocket next year, it makes no sense to trade him before it does.

Kesler is one of the best shutdown centers in the league, and has shown he can also be an offensive force by putting up 40 goals.

Tavares is a potential franchise player, no doubt in my mind he'll put up 100+ for a few seasons, but he will never be as complete as Kesler. He's not a great skater, he doesn't have a seperation gear or explosiveness, no physical edge to his game, and he doesn't have great size, all of which is necessary to be an elite 2 way center. Yes. he's already quite a bit better than kesler offensively, but there's more to the game than that.
You clearly haven't seen much of Tavares in the last 3 seasons.

His off season skating has improved his skating by leaps and bounds.
He has developed well physically.

http://thehockeywriters.com/overtime...-john-tavares/
The Evolution of John Tavares
Posted: July 31, 2012

The player that was bumped off of the puck and criticized for his sub-par skating during his first two seasons with New York was nowhere to be found. Instead, Tavares’ opponents, fans, and scouts were playing against a stronger and more complete center, one that had refined his skating and increased his strength. Muscling Tavares off of the puck was not so easy any more and this phenomenon was reflected by a 14 point jump in the pivot’s overall point totals. However, if one were to ask Tavares if he would have traded some of his points for wins and a shot at the playoffs, the forward would probably oblige in order to have a shot at Lord Stanley’s Cup.

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08-05-2012, 11:48 AM
  #99
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Kesler is one of the best shutdown centers in the league, and has shown he can also be an offensive force by putting up 40 goals.
I think we are all aware, especially Canuck fans even though they do not want to admit it, that Kesler is not likely to hit 40 goals again. This coming from someone who watched him play since he was 15 years old with the NTDP. He just doesn't have that kind of offensive talent. He's developed a very good wrist shot since those days, but his release isn't elite by a long shot and there isn't too much else going on in his arsenal to make you think of him as a consistent 40 goal scorer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoLu7ioN View Post
Tavares is a potential franchise player, no doubt in my mind he'll put up 100+ for a few seasons, but he will never be as complete as Kesler. He's not a great skater, he doesn't have a seperation gear or explosiveness, no physical edge to his game, and he doesn't have great size, all of which is necessary to be an elite 2 way center. Yes. he's already quite a bit better than kesler offensively, but there's more to the game than that.
Actually, none of that is necessary, Datsyuk is a perfect present day example. Tavares isn't there yet, his defensive abilities improved 10-fold last season. His skating is actually a lot better than you make it seem, he does have seperation ability as he showcased last season, and more importantly, his hockey IQ is through the roof. He's also relentless everywhere on the ice, which combined with his IQ will allow him to be a top defensive player along with already being a top offensive player. He's well on his way already.

Kesler's simply nowhere near as valuable as Tavares right now, forget about the next few years as Tavares continues to emerge.

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08-05-2012, 04:56 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I didn't realize Schneider had sign a 3 yr extension. I'd still rather have 6 signed yrs of Tavares, over 3 signed yrs of Schneider.

And I don't want to get into a pissing contest, over whether Tavares or Kesler will be more productive over the next 6 seasons. I'd rather have 21 yr old Tavares. If Vancouver fans prefer Kesler, that's cool.

I gladly take my chances that one of Nilson/Poulin/Koskinen will develop into a quality #1.
Let Wang worry over insurance pays RD's forced retirement or whether Wang pays him $1.5m per. Sometimes you make bad signings and have to swallow those contracts.
It's fine to say that any one of the pieces would not equate to JT, but to say that the sum of Sedins, Edler, Kesler and Schneider are not equal to JT is just downright stupid. I'm sorry if this is insulting, but there is no other way for me to express this adequately: The thought that JT is worth more than this package is Stupid. The thought that the Canucks would ever entertain such and idea is Stupid. The thought that the Islanders wouldn't do this trade in a heartbeat is Stupid.

This board has been infested with this stupidity for too long. People can be homers that's fine, but I'm sick of homerism being an excuse to be ignorant of reality. Yes, every fan base loves its star players, but no, they are not untouchable, they are not worth 4 guys as good or close to them, and teams have traded young stars in the past. People come on here day after day and talk in these absolute statements like they are some sore of omniscient presence gracing us with their insight, yet all they are doing is taking away from the chance for any rational discussion.

To the OP: would JT ever being traded to VAN? Highly, highly doubtful. But if it were to happen, Kesler and Edler would likely be a starting point to which more significant pieces were added. One of our two top goalies would likely make sense as well. Salary would also have to come back the other way, so DiPietro seems like a logical piece. More than this I do not claim to know, nor will I ever. As I said, this trade will likely only take form in this realm of fantasy, and for me to claim that I am certain of what were to happen if it were ever a reality would be nothing more than a lie.

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