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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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08-05-2012, 03:16 PM
  #601
JAVO16
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The likelihood is so small that it would be prudent to disregard it.
What does this even mean ? Prudent ? Also, tell me way you evaluated the likehood (which factors came into this evaluation,etc).

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08-05-2012, 03:41 PM
  #602
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What does this even mean ? Prudent ? Also, tell me way you evaluated the likehood (which factors came into this evaluation,etc).
Gionta makes a lot of money. He's over 30 years of age. He's small. He's the Habs captain, so it would be bad public relations.

I suggest you consult a dictionary for the definition of prudent, although I think you already know it.

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08-05-2012, 05:29 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Gionta makes a lot of money. He's over 30 years of age. He's small. He's the Habs captain, so it would be bad public relations.

I suggest you consult a dictionary for the definition of prudent, although I think you already know it.
Yes, the habs have never traded a captain, lol. You tried and failed to make any point at all.

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08-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #604
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Yes, the habs have never traded a captain, lol. You tried and failed to make any point at all.
I didn't say never but you would have to go back many years, before Koivu, to find it. Were you even alive then?

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08-05-2012, 09:14 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I didn't say never but you would have to go back many years, before Koivu, to find it. Were you even alive then?
It use to be if you were a captain of the habs, look out. Or so it seemed at least. There have been plenty of captains traded from the ch, and yes I was alive for more than one.

Captain Kirk, Mike Keane, Vincent Damphousse, Turgeon, Chelios and Carbonneau come to mind. T here were something like 6 captains in 10 years that were traded away. Koivu was an anomaly and it's big part of why the fan base crew so attached to him, that and his bout with cancer. I was alive for all of them and not just alive, but old enough to see them all go.

It's become a little rarer, but mostly become koivu was an exception to the rule. Not because it's unthinkable.

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08-05-2012, 09:16 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Captain Kirk, Mike Keane, Vincent Damphousse, Turgeon, Chelios and Carbonneau
Maybe there's a curse.

If the Habs trade their captain it's guaranteed to be a bad trade.

Those trades... the great Hall Of Fail right there.

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08-05-2012, 09:28 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I didn't say never but you would have to go back many years, before Koivu, to find it. Were you even alive then?
You do know that 10-15 years ago, being appointed the C was known as the kiss of death around Montreal. Pretty ironic that you call someone out for something that was well known around the city and even the league and that occurred since our last cup win.

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08-05-2012, 10:59 PM
  #608
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Guys guys guys... this whole thread is worthless, because what's going to happen is that there's going to be another lock-out, then the NHL will have another lottery draft going by the positions of this year's standings, the Habs will end up winning the 1st overall pick and welcome to Montreal MacKinnon!

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08-05-2012, 11:00 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by MarkersMark View Post
You do know that 10-15 years ago, being appointed the C was known as the kiss of death around Montreal. Pretty ironic that you call someone out for something that was well known around the city and even the league and that occurred since our last cup win.
Agreed. It's looking more like he was the one not old enough. Anyways, im not trying to one up anyone, but the idea that it is a public relations nightmare to trade a captain is hogwash, the habs base isn't even barely attached to Gionta, he likely isn't even the number 1 leader, gorges is and should be the captain anyways.

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08-05-2012, 11:41 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
Two things:

-We were the 2nd best PK, not the best
-Markov's return could be something positive to look forward to if he ever regains his form

Hasnt Markov been more or less injure for 3 solid years? Guy should just pack it in. He's wasting a spot on your team IMO.

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08-05-2012, 11:52 PM
  #611
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Hasnt Markov been more or less injure for 3 solid years? Guy should just pack it in. He's wasting a spot on your team IMO.
Your team needs more than a 1 year surgical tank - more like a 3 - 5 year hike through death valley. When you're done that you're welcome to come back for your next assignment.

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08-05-2012, 11:59 PM
  #612
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My PhD is in astrophysics.
Kill shot from the grassy Knoll. He never saw it coming.

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08-06-2012, 12:25 AM
  #613
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As much as I wish the habs would stock up, this idea should be explored at least 20 games in. Too premature but I'm not opposed to the line of thought, merely opposed to giving up before you start.

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08-06-2012, 01:22 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
As much as I wish the habs would stock up, this idea should be explored at least 20 games in. Too premature but I'm not opposed to the line of thought, merely opposed to giving up before you start.
By that time CBJ and Oilers would have already secured #1 and 2

But I do agree with you, if we were to tank I would like to at least see how the team does for the first 20 games and move from there.

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08-06-2012, 01:36 AM
  #615
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Im tired of threads like theses... players don't grow when they lose games they do by winning some.

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08-06-2012, 06:01 AM
  #616
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Im tired of threads like theses... players don't grow when they lose games they do by winning some.
With that kind of logic, the Edmonton Oilers are screwed. Guys like Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and now Yakupov are all there. So they will not grow with the first few seasons of their young careers being a flush? Not that I am suggesting you're absolutely wrong, but some players do grow through awful seasons. It builds character and tells a lot about yourself if you're able to handle it and keep going.

As for this year though, I'd rather wait until game 25-30 before talking seriously about it. To discuss a tank before pre-season has even started is way too early. However by game 30, if the Habs are dead last in the East, I would think it's time to start stock-piling picks, trading contracts out and building a more solid foundation for the future.

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08-06-2012, 06:11 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
With that kind of logic, the Edmonton Oilers are screwed. Guys like Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and now Yakupov are all there. So they will not grow with the first few seasons of their young careers being a flush? Not that I am suggesting you're absolutely wrong, but some players do grow through awful seasons. It builds character and tells a lot about yourself if you're able to handle it and keep going.

As for this year though, I'd rather wait until game 25-30 before talking seriously about it. To discuss a tank before pre-season has even started is way too early. However by game 30, if the Habs are dead last in the East, I would think it's time to start stock-piling picks, trading contracts out and building a more solid foundation for the future.
This is the best course of action we can tank er take.

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08-06-2012, 09:19 AM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
Hasnt Markov been more or less injure for 3 solid years? Guy should just pack it in. He's wasting a spot on your team IMO.
They were freak injuries. I expect Andrei Markov to be back this year, but he is very likely to be extremely psychologically rusty for some time, maybe half the season. He was a skilled player but he was also an intelligence player, so that will take some time to come back. IMO he should start the season on the 3rd defensive pairing with someone like Bouillon and be given easy matchups for some time. Hockey is a skill and it will take time to come back, and that time will include hiccups.

Are Flames fans expecting Iginla to be traded or resigned at the end of this year?

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08-06-2012, 09:39 AM
  #619
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The best part of having Markov in the lineup for a good chunk of the year is upping his trade value for next February. Between him and Kaberle on the block, there will be some interest that should garner a return of a 1st round pick.

Up front you try your hardest to offload Bourque come February, and if you can't grab a 2nd rounder for him then you'll have to entertain the idea of dealing Gionta.

2 1st rounders
4 2nd rounders

Deep draft.

Profitttt.

Also, nothing's stopping us from packaging a 1st and 2nd at the draft for some immediate help. Either up front or on D. Names like Bogosian or Chris Stewart come to mind.

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08-06-2012, 10:01 AM
  #620
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We have no impending UFA of significant value, Hawking.
Glad you hate science. Remind me to tell your doctor that when you need treatment for cancer.

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No wonder you like to theorize and jump to conclusions so much.

This whole thread sounds a whole lot like a bunch of cosmologists arguing over their many competing and unproven theories.

Tanking is actually very similar to the theorized Higgs field, you know it's there, but you just cant quite put your finger on it, so to speak
Don't play in arenas you don't belong in. Works for me.

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Only 411 more to go. Trying to make NHL history.

Go Habs Go!!!!
Thanks for your brilliant contribution to the discussion.

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thats cause tanking doesnt exist.dachamp is rambling on and on about things that do not happen.lol.i'd like to hear his opinoin on the multiverse theory.since he's so smart i'm sure he could break it down for us.
Barney.

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08-06-2012, 10:17 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by MarkersMark View Post
The best part of having Markov in the lineup for a good chunk of the year is upping his trade value for next February. Between him and Kaberle on the block, there will be some interest that should garner a return of a 1st round pick.

Up front you try your hardest to offload Bourque come February, and if you can't grab a 2nd rounder for him then you'll have to entertain the idea of dealing Gionta.

2 1st rounders
4 2nd rounders

Deep draft.

Profitttt.

Also, nothing's stopping us from packaging a 1st and 2nd at the draft for some immediate help. Either up front or on D. Names like Bogosian or Chris Stewart come to mind.
Chris Stewart might be available for cheap. Would be a nice reclamation project.

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08-06-2012, 10:27 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
With that kind of logic, the Edmonton Oilers are screwed. Guys like Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and now Yakupov are all there. So they will not grow with the first few seasons of their young careers being a flush? Not that I am suggesting you're absolutely wrong, but some players do grow through awful seasons. It builds character and tells a lot about yourself if you're able to handle it and keep going.

As for this year though, I'd rather wait until game 25-30 before talking seriously about it. To discuss a tank before pre-season has even started is way too early. However by game 30, if the Habs are dead last in the East, I would think it's time to start stock-piling picks, trading contracts out and building a more solid foundation for the future.
I agree wholeheartedly with the second part. No need to think strategic tank until we know how these guys will play with each other. If they're crap by Christmas, then this topic gains momentum.

If, however, they're in the mix or even ahead of most - which isn't completely outside the realm of possibility - I hope we give the T word a rest. I know there are some of us that feel we need to stockpile more picks and assets if we're ever going to win another cup, but I disagree.

With Galchenyuk, Price, Subban and Pacioretty we have a youth core that many would consider elite. Add Gorges, DD, Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Collberg and Ellis to the line-up in supporting or secondary scoring roles and you have a team that will be competing for the cup in the next 3-5 years.

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08-06-2012, 10:30 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
I agree wholeheartedly with the second part. No need to think strategic tank until we know how these guys will play with each other. If they're crap by Christmas, then this topic gains momentum.

If, however, they're in the mix or even ahead of most - which isn't completely outside the realm of possibility - I hope we give the T word a rest. I know there are some of us that feel we need to stockpile more picks and assets if we're ever going to win another cup, but I disagree.

With Galchenyuk, Price, Subban and Pacioretty we have a youth core that many would consider elite. Add Gorges, DD, Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Collberg and Ellis to the line-up in supporting or secondary scoring roles and you have a team that will be competing for the cup in the next 3-5 years.
What if the team is 8th-12th place?

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08-06-2012, 11:19 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
What if the team is 8th-12th place?
Well, it depends on what 8th to 12th means in the standings. Are we in 8th, 5 points up on 9th? Are we tied with 3 other teams for 8th or within 3 points of 12th?

Assuming you mean the latter, it's a tough decision for any team, no doubt. The important thing is to look beyond mere stats and evaluate whether your team - in the grand scheme of things - is on the rise or is just not good enough - long term.

If Bergevin sees a team that is competing every night and wants to play together and wants to win together; if he sees a youth core coming together and pushing each other, than I think he gives them every opportunity to scrap it out. If he sees that his team is gassed, not fighting for the puck, old and not jelling, I still think he's in the driver's seat: he has 4 picks in the top-60 next year with one of the best talent evaluators in the business. Added to which he also has a bunch of 1 and 2-year contracts that will be expiring before too long, so it's not like he's locked in with this team forever.

Whatever happens, an 8 to 12 place finish this year is not the worst thing in the world for a last-place team. Rarely do teams go from 15th to elite from one year to the next. I think it would be good for them to fight for a PO spot this year. Whether they make it or not. They have a lot of prospects on the cusp to feel hopeful about and plenty of picks to make some noise in next Summer's draft.

This is as close to a brand-new team as we've seen in a long time. New management and development people means a new philosophy and new attitude that will soon pervade the entire team. Acquiring players like Mackinnon is great, but it's less important to me than creating a winning attitude throughout the organization.

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08-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #625
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Yes, the habs have never traded a captain, lol. You tried and failed to make any point at all.
And these trades are widely regarded as some of the worse in Habs history.

That it happened before doesn't mean it will happen in the near future, theres no logic in that.

Firstly this is not the 1990s anymore, secondly Marc Bergevin was busy getting deked by Mario Lemieux and blocking shots back then, he wasn't our GM. The only way we trade Gionta is if a king's ransom is offered for him at the deadline. He's not untouchable but I don't think he's a movable asset like Gill was either.

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