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What can you say about the Calgary Flames

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Old
08-06-2012, 04:41 PM
  #101
hockeyfreak7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Take another second to think about it.

When management decides to trade their best players for futures, management is tanking. The players could play their best but it'll be all for nothing when the those players suck, or aren't as good enough as the ones you traded. That train of thought is the silliest thing this board has going for it.

Also, every team rebuilds, they do it at the draft, just the teams that aren't committed to winning in the present do it with higher picks. Management who isn't committed to winning so that a top selection falls onto their lap are pathetic. I wouldn't mind seeing teams relegated to stop that sort of 'cheating' from happening.
Your problem is that you believe that the primary goal of a rebuilding team is to attain high draft picks.

It's not.


The primary goal is to rebuild the team's core to be younger and better suited for long term success. If that means high draft picks in the process, then so be it.

But dont think for a second that NHL GMs enjoy coming in last place because it is 'all part of the plan'.


You are also assuming that the teams who come in last do so willingly. As if it's impossible for teams to actually suck. I mean, do you really believe the Islanders and Blue Jackets finished in last on purpose?

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Old
08-06-2012, 04:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Not every team is rebuilding at the draft. Teams are building, but the only ones rebuilding are the ones commonly labelled as "tankers" by smart guys on the interwebs. I would like someone to honestly show how any recent lottery teams weren't at least trying to be competitive. Go ahead. You can't do it, because it doesn't happen.
I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to spend my time evaluating your team on a microeconomic level. I could tell you my team doesn't tank, constantly trying to add depth and competition from overseas, through free agency, and the trade market. If you can't say the same for your team then surely you could understand that it's passive nature could be interpreted as a tanking mentality.

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08-06-2012, 04:58 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Your problem is that you believe that the primary goal of a rebuilding team is to attain high draft picks.

It's not.


The primary goal is to rebuild the team's core to be younger and better suited for long term success. If that means high draft picks in the process, then so be it.

But dont think for a second that NHL GMs enjoy coming in last place because it is 'all part of the plan'.


You are also assuming that the teams who come in last do so willingly. As if it's impossible for teams to actually suck. I mean, do you really believe the Islanders and Blue Jackets finished in last on purpose?
I am not assuming that all teams which come in last do so willingly. I am suggesting that the case could be made for some who intentionally deal away important parts of their NHL roster, and refuse to re-stock their NHL depth through FA, are doing so because it could be the difference between a 10th overall pick and a 5th overall pick. I am suggesting that, if in fact that mind-state exists, it's pathetic.

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08-06-2012, 05:06 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
I am not assuming that all teams which come in last do so willingly. I am suggesting that the case could be made for some who intentionally deal away important parts of their NHL roster, and refuse to re-stock their NHL depth through FA, are doing so because it could be the difference between a 10th overall pick and a 5th overall pick. I am suggesting that, if in fact that mind-state exists, it's pathetic.
Once again, your problem is that you believe the primary intention of teams who "deal away important parts of their NHL roster" is to finish with a high draft pick.

That is false. The primary intention of such trades are to restructure the teams core and allow for younger players and prospects to get their time in the NHL. It's more of an 'out with the old, in with the new' kind of thing rather than a 'lose at all costs' kind of thing.

The end result might be the same (30th place finish), but the motives behind such trades are not. Rebuilding and tanking are not the same. I think it's a bit naive to believe that professional teams lose intentionally. It's very seldom that teams truly tank for the promise of attaining an 18 year old player who may or may not ever pan out.

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Old
08-06-2012, 05:21 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Your problem is that you believe that the primary goal of a rebuilding team is to attain high draft picks.

It's not.


The primary goal is to rebuild the team's core to be younger and better suited for long term success. If that means high draft picks in the process, then so be it.

But dont think for a second that NHL GMs enjoy coming in last place because it is 'all part of the plan'.


You are also assuming that the teams who come in last do so willingly. As if it's impossible for teams to actually suck. I mean, do you really believe the Islanders and Blue Jackets finished in last on purpose?
Unless part of the plan is for your fans to hate you, having low attendance, losing money, and getting fired.

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Old
08-06-2012, 05:32 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Bourque last year was an anchor dragging our team down. Getting rid of him was just as much a positive as getting Cammalleri was.

I don't know how you argue that they were better two years ago. They weren't.

Look at Glencross's production and his goal scoring has gone up every year he's been in Calgary. He's still getting better. People like to gloss over the fact that he's a rugged grinder with a deadly wrist shot that scored 26 goals in 67 games last year. Maybe he'll plateau this year but he's been on a steady incline since getting here, and is a 30 goal scorer in a full year. Yet Iginla is apparently the only guy that can play the top line.

This Flames team has never had a PP QB like Wideman. He may be a liability defensively but covering those types of errors is the area where J-Bo IS a great defenseman, and everyone who follows the team is pretty sure that it's gonna be a good pair.

Bartschi could get 50, maybe 60 points. He's a clutch, game breaking talent. No one knows how big he is for us this year but he's definitely a great addition.

Backlund should take a step forward. He signed a contract to prove his worth, he knows he had a bad season, wasn't given many opportunities, everything went wrong for him. Everyone is expecting an improved Backlund and rightfully so.

Brodie has been continually progressing. No one knows where he tops out but he should be a more improved player this year.

I can go on and on but there are countless areas where Flames are improving.

Also a lot of Flames prospects are underrated. Max Reinhart for example often gets called a dime a dozen player that every team has, and he'd be lucky to even make the NHL. So ignorant. Reinhart may be overshadowed by his brothers, but I'm positive that he won't just make the NHL, he's gonna be a good player. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets called up this season and makes a good showing of himself. He, or Bill Arnold, Michael Ferland, they may not be top liners but they're going to provide a lot of depth down the line.

Then there's Jankowski; let's at least wait and see what he does before we annoint him as a bust? There's a reason though why scouts love his game on first viewing, because it takes about 5 seconds to see how talented he is. But people are saying he won't even play a game without seeing this for themselves, but that's just a perfect example of the Flames ignorance that pervades this board.

Bottom line is that the roster is underrated, the prospects are underrated, the GM is underrated, everything about the Flames is underrated on this board.
Pretty much how I see it too. These threads are getting pretty mundane right around now, though. There's got to be something better to talk about. The preseason can't come soon enough.

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Old
08-06-2012, 05:49 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
The Flames ARE rebuilding, just not in the Oiler-honored and HF approved manner of tanking, being horrific and not giving the fans much to watch.
"Approved"? Really? You should post here more often because then you see that the Oilers are constantly vilified here. You should have seen this place the night they won the draft lottery. Wow.

It's also been mentioned before countless times but I find it really interesting that posters on hf think the Flames need to rebuild while the Oilers get dragged through the mud for doing exactly that. "Wah change the draft lottery! etc".
Quote:
A lot is going to have to go right for the rebuild to be successful, but the same thing applies to the teams that finish dead last too.
I'm assuming you are referring to Edmonton here. You have to admit the talent the Oilers are stockpiling is much more of a sure thing. The Flames have no young players that can compete with the likes of Hall/RNH/Yakupov. I mean that without malice, it's because the Flames have never drafted that low.

Quote:
At least Flames fans aren't subject to being out of the playoff race at Christmas like the fans of certain favorites here.
It's possible to make your point without bashing the Oilers. The Oilers have nothing to do with this topic. And they are far from "favourites" on HF. Like I said most of the people crying about the Oilers "tanking" are hollering for the Flames to do the same.

My non-biased opinion is, i agree with the poster who thinks the Flames lack an identity, just 5 years they had one as a tough bruising team who could outwork you and were one of the best teams defensively. Now it's like they are trying to fit mishmash of stuff together and hoping it works out. I actually hope the Oilers and Flames get better, for many the golden age of hockey was the era when the two teams frequently met in the playffs (which might be possible with divisional playoffs coming back). Plus the league is more interesting with two strong Alberta teams.


Last edited by Angelus: 08-06-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old
08-06-2012, 05:51 PM
  #108
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Lol.
Should just rename these types of redundant threads **** on other teams. On paper this team looks good, not amazing, but better than most will give them credit for. People forget there are twenty goal scorers on every single line this year, that they're not rebuilding, but getting younger every year, that they're finally throwing skill into lines instead of grit... That they have two guys who could turn out to be great players in Sven and cervenka.

It's much easier for internet scrubs to drink the coolaid and Crap on the flames like everyone else does.

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Old
08-06-2012, 05:55 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Flames are making the playoffs this year, I don't care what the haters say. We are way better than the critics say.
And what exactly is this opinion based on ????

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08-06-2012, 05:55 PM
  #110
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The Flames remind of the Leafs from like 3-4 years ago. I would say they are the worst put together team in hockey. An old core, not enough young talent, and no direction it seems like.

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08-06-2012, 05:59 PM
  #111
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To be honest I have them as the least desirable team from an asset perspective in the league.

I would actually rather have Columbus as a team + farm system than Calgary, and that says a lot.

Their best two players are much closer to retirement than their primes, and everything else is a mix of second or third tier talent. Their farm system is pretty bare with no massive relief in sight.

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08-06-2012, 06:00 PM
  #112
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Continuously mediocre.

They missed perhaps the best opportunity imaginable to move Iginla two years ago. He had come off a dynamic Olympic performance and teams would have salivated at the thought of his availability. Frankly, I suspect Pittsburgh being at the forefront of that line after the chemistry he displayed with Crosby. Calgary could have traded him for a disgusting king's ransom and halted the inevitable rebuild to two years at best, one in ideal circumstances, especially once you factor in potentially dealing Kipper. Alas, they chose to battle on and with each passing season both their stars have lost value, to the point neither will bring the overpayment they once would.

With all the teams either in front of, or competing with, them. I cannot foresee a playoff berth any time soon. The exception being if their rookies do perform up to or exceeding expectation. Should they limp into the playoffs though. It will be as cannon fodder.

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08-06-2012, 06:05 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
I am not assuming that all teams which come in last do so willingly. I am suggesting that the case could be made for some who intentionally deal away important parts of their NHL roster, and refuse to re-stock their NHL depth through FA, are doing so because it could be the difference between a 10th overall pick and a 5th overall pick. I am suggesting that, if in fact that mind-state exists, it's pathetic.
which important Oilers got traded away?

People talk about the Oilers intentionally tanking but that is not true. We never traded away key parts. Penner was probably the closest to a tank job but lots of teams trade soon to be ufa if they are out of the playoff hunt on deadline day. The season was over before we traded him.

The sad truth was that our team was devoid of elite talent and we did not have elite prospects coming up. A decision was made to grow through prospects and not to chase short term dreams.

It is a painful process and takes a few years but I am confident the Oilers will finish even or ahead of the Flames this year and dominate them in the future.

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08-06-2012, 06:06 PM
  #114
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Calgary is at the same level as Dallas. It's interesting how other team gets bashing and the other one gets hyped..

I think a lot people wants Calgary to rebuild so much that this converts them to bashing Calgarys current level of play - which is borderline playoff material. I will sympathize Calgary for trying while the best, maybe making the playoffs one more time.

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Old
08-06-2012, 07:08 PM
  #115
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Iginla would net you a Simon Despres/Joe Morrow/Brian Dumoulin/Scott Harrington++

Calgary just needs to completely fall out of the playoff picture. Barring injuries I don't really see that happening though

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08-06-2012, 07:09 PM
  #116
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I posted this in another Flames "related" thread, In response to a handful of posters who consistently say that Jay Feaster has no plan moving forward, or has failed to change the "formula" in which Darryl Sutter chased for half a decade.

Quote:
What formula would that be? Jay Feaster has been GM in Calgary for ONE SEASON. He is just beginning to put his plan into action, so how could you possibly write it off as a failure?.

He simply just cant go off and trade Jarome and Miikka for numerous reasons.

1. Both players have expressed an interest to remain in Calgary and win a championship here. They have also earned the right to pick if and where they want to go.
2. Ownership has no interest in seeing the two players that drive revenue for the team leave unless it is a an absolute must.
3. Feaster would have to find great value on the trade market in order to trade such prolific names and productive assets. This becomes more difficult when only contending teams and NTC's get involved.

You simply don't go trading off your most important and valuable assets at below market value for the sake of starting a rebuild in a market that has the financial resources to put together a team that is competitive on a night to night basis.

I would also like to mention that huge name players that have been moved in the past historically bring in very little value long term to their organization. That is proven by the Smyth trade, Hossa trade, and Kovalchuk trade.

It is an extremely tough situation to confront, and is not as easy as each and everyone of you are making out to be. If Calgary is out of the playoffs at the deadline and Jarome is open to being moved to a contender, then and only then would it be absolutely foolish to have Feaster sit on his hands. I don't see him doing that either.

Feaster has made it clear through his actions that he wants a much younger roster, and has stressed the importance of building through the draft.

Jay Feaster (Top sixty draft picks) 2011-2012;
Sven Baertschi
Markus Granlund
Tyler Wotherspoon
Mark Jankowski
Patrick Sieloff

Darryl Sutter (Top sixty draft picks) 2006-2010;
Tim Erixon
Greg Nemisz
Mitch Wahl
Mikael Backlund
Leland Irving

As you can see Jay Feaster has already made the same amount of selections in the first two rounds of the draft as Darryl did in his final five seasons in Calgary.

The state of an organization simply can not be changed overnight. It takes time. Just because as it stands now they are not "rebuilding" does not mean they have no future and will never compete for a Stanley Cup again, it just means they are going another route. I would go as far to say that even if Jarome was traded at this upcoming deadline that a "scorched earth rebuild" would not be necessary.

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Old
08-06-2012, 07:11 PM
  #117
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I'll stick with the "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" mantra.

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08-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #118
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I don't see much in the way of UFA/Trade talk at all. Closing this one down.

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