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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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08-06-2012, 01:11 PM
  #426
Nihiliste
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I think the rebuild needs two more years at the current pace before the Avs are contenders again. It will give Duchene/EJ/RoR/Landeskog/Varly more time to establish themselves and also given sherman the couple more years he will need to make moves to bring in the missing pieces. Two years from now our D prospects will finally be ready to start making a positive influence i believe, and we will hopefully be able to move away from the hunwicks and o'briens of the world. Now I know that everyone is in love with Pracey, but I've been pretty disappointed with the last couple drafts.

We need a couple of strong drafts to restock the pipeline with promising talent and valuable trade pieces, and more importantly with high skill talent which we seem to lack. If you look at the way St. Louis, Minnesota, Ottawa have really strong pipelines it really puts them in a good position going forward. Similarly, look at the Kings, they drafted a number of valuable trade pieces that allowed them to make the moves they needed to win the cup.

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08-07-2012, 01:35 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I think the rebuild needs two more years at the current pace before the Avs are contenders again. It will give Duchene/EJ/RoR/Landeskog/Varly more time to establish themselves and also given sherman the couple more years he will need to make moves to bring in the missing pieces. Two years from now our D prospects will finally be ready to start making a positive influence i believe, and we will hopefully be able to move away from the hunwicks and o'briens of the world. Now I know that everyone is in love with Pracey, but I've been pretty disappointed with the last couple drafts.

We need a couple of strong drafts to restock the pipeline with promising talent and valuable trade pieces, and more importantly with high skill talent which we seem to lack. If you look at the way St. Louis, Minnesota, Ottawa have really strong pipelines it really puts them in a good position going forward. Similarly, look at the Kings, they drafted a number of valuable trade pieces that allowed them to make the moves they needed to win the cup.

why have you been disappointed ? because he didnt take the players you would ?
he probobly knows exactly what he is doing.
would you have taken oreilley with that pick ?

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08-07-2012, 10:11 AM
  #428
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why have you been disappointed ? because he didnt take the players you would ?
he probobly knows exactly what he is doing.
would you have taken oreilley with that pick ?
Disappointed because of the narrow scope of his drafting philosophy which results in us passing over some higher upside if risky players. E.g hishon over Etem or Silas (who wasn't even signed) over pulkkinen.

Don't get me wrong, Pracey has made some great picks particularly in 2009 and is definitely great at what he does, but take out duchene and Landeskog from his drafting record for being such high picks and his record is probably a little overrated by posters here. That said, he didn't have a 2nd or 3rd to work with last year or a 1st/4th this year. If he has a full complement of picks again this year perhaps we will see another strong draft.

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08-07-2012, 10:19 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Disappointed because of the narrow scope of his drafting philosophy which results in us passing over some higher upside if risky players. E.g hishon over Etem or Silas (who wasn't even signed) over pulkkinen.

Don't get me wrong, Pracey has made some great picks particularly in 2009 and is definitely great at what he does, but take out duchene and Landeskog from his drafting record for being such high picks and his record is probably a little overrated by posters here. That said, he didn't have a 2nd or 3rd to work with last year or a 1st/4th this year. If he has a full complement of picks again this year perhaps we will see another strong draft.
Hishon over Etem was a good pick.

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08-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #430
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People here were generally disappointed when we drafted O'Reilly. HF posters haven't watched juniors all that much and if they have, who knows if they have the ability to project the future of a player. I do enjoy the bickering with other fan bases over prospects, but I am well aware that we are all mostly stabbing in the dark.

While it does seem a bit weird to focus so much on drafting smaller forwards lately, Sherman has shown that when Avs have identified an organizational need they address it one way or another.

I'm looking forward to this year, both for Avs and for LEM. The AHL season will a good litmus test for a lot of our players. Hopefully Hishon, Sgrabossa, Elliott, Barrie and Pickard will take the next step.

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08-07-2012, 05:50 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Hopefully Hishon, Sgrabossa, Elliott, Barrie and Pickard will take the next step.
Gaunce too.

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01-27-2013, 02:14 PM
  #432
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The Greg Sherman thread:

Looking back on his trades, is it just me or have they all turned out to be horrible decisions?

I think he would have been 10x better off just leaving this team together but he chose to tear it apart and we have not seen anything resembling a playoff calibre team.

The BAD:

1- Ryan Smyth to LA for Quincey. Quincey to Detroit for Downie.
I'd rather have Ryan Smyth than the other two. The old veteran Smyth's leadership would be in-valuable on this young team. Downie is a freaking moron and his antics cost us games.

2- Stewart, Shattenkirk and Ty Rattie are stars.
We lost out horribly on that trade. Terrible. Terrible trade. Johnson has been Ok but look what we gave up. It's sickening to see the players we gave up. I hope Siemens turns out to be the next Pronger or this could be one of the worst trades ever.

3- Brian Elliot. We could have had him and our 1st round pick (Filip Forsberg) instead of Varly. I love Varly but we gave up alot for him and let a good goalie go for free.

4- The Varly trade. It wasn't needed. Filip Forsberg and our 2013 pick would be nice especially considering we had Elliot.

4- JM Liles for a 2nd round pick
Are you *** kidding me? Shattenkirk and Liles are better than anyone we have on our D right now.

The GOOD:

I like the Winnik for McGinn deal. We got two nice prospects in return.

The O'Byrne and Hunwick deals were nice but not a big deal because both guys are #5 or #6 guys at best.

Im not counting his decision to let Fleishmann and Mueller leave because of his health issues.

JS Giguere was a nice signign and Parenteau, Zanon and Mitchell look to be a nice signings as well but we horribly over-paid for Hedja. He will probably be bought out next year.

Look at what could have been:

LW - C- RW

Gabe Landeskog - Matt Duchene - PA Parenteau
Chris Stewart - Paul Stastny - David Jones
Ryan Smyth - John Mitchell - Milan Hedjuk
Jamie McGinn - Marc Olver - Cody Mcleod
Patrick Bordeleau - Chuck Kobasew

**O'Reilly

Defense

Kevin Shattenkirk - Ryan Wilson
JM Liles - Greg Zanon
Ryan O'Byrne - Jan Hedja
Matt Hunwick

Goal:

Brian Elliot
JS Giguere

--Ty Rattie and Filip Forsberg for the future. Both will be stars and both guys would be our top farm players right now.

All in all, Sherman has made some nice signings considering we have an owner who doesn't want to spend money but his trades have been horrific to say the least. This team would be better up front. It would have better D-men and probably a wash in net. Plus, we would have two future stars ready to help out in a few seasons.


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01-27-2013, 02:16 PM
  #433
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01-27-2013, 02:20 PM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
2- Stewart, Shattenkirk and Ty Rattie are stars.
We lost out horrible on that trade. Terrible. Terrible trade. Johnson is good but look what we gave up.
Ty Rattie is a star? Maybe wait until he plays an NHL game. And Stewart was a healthy scratch in the playoffs last year. Not really what happens to stars.

Do you really think Brian Elliott would be doing what he's doing in St. Louis behind this defense? He faces 13-15 shots a game in St. Louis.

And it's hilarious you think Liles is a better defenseman than EJ.

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01-27-2013, 02:23 PM
  #435
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Time to bump this one up:

It is make or break time now for Greg.

How he handles the ROR situation and what he does next offseason will determine the success of this franchise for the next 4-6 years.

I am very curious how this will turn out.

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01-27-2013, 02:27 PM
  #436
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Yah, don't we already have a Sherman thread?

For the record, I think a majority of his deals have worked out just fine. For a guy hamstrung to the cap floor for the majority of his tenure, I'd say he's done very well.

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01-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #437
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This is hilarious nice work

Oh wait you weren't kidding?

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01-27-2013, 02:29 PM
  #438
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I can't see his post for some reason. Must be some message board malfunction.

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
Ty Rattie is a star? Maybe wait until he plays an NHL game. And Stewart was a healthy scratch in the playoffs last year. Not really what happens to stars.

Do you really think Brian Elliott would be doing what he's doing in St. Louis behind this defense? He faces 13-15 shots a game in St. Louis.

And it's hilarious you think Liles is a better defenseman than EJ.
Elliot had 972 shots against in 38 games last year. or 25 per game. Varlamov had 1564 in 53 games last year or 29 per game. Not a huge difference.

Johnson is good yes but he is not the top pairing D-man we thought he would be. Not even close.

Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, JM Liles, Filip Forsberg and Ty Rattie

FOR

Eric Johnson, Semyon Varlamov, Duncan Siemens and a 2nd round pick

Would you do that deal today?

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #440
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Well done. I genuinely laughed when i got to Stewart, Shatty and Ratie are stars.

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Yah, don't we already have a Sherman thread?

For the record, I think a majority of his deals have worked out just fine. For a guy hamstrung to the cap floor for the majority of his tenure, I'd say he's done very well.
Yes, he has done a decent job in free agency but his trades have either not been needed or have not worked out for the majority.

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01-27-2013, 02:33 PM
  #442
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Well done. I genuinely laughed when i got to Stewart, Shatty and Ratie are stars.
But Eric Johnson and Duncan Siemens are?

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01-27-2013, 02:35 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Elliot had 972 shots against in 38 games last year. or 25 per game. Varlamov had 1564 in 53 games last year or 29 per game. Not a huge difference.

Johnson is good yes but he is not the top pairing D-man we thought he would be. Not even close.

Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, JM Liles, Filip Forsberg and Ty Rattie

FOR

Eric Johnson, Semyon Varlamov, Duncan Siemens and a 2nd round pick

Would you do that deal today?
yes because you have:

Stefan Elliot and Tyson barrie who are just like shattenkirk but younger

Varly who is WAY better than elliot. Elliot rides the bench in STL.

Liles was good but overrated.

Forsber and Rattie haven't played in the nhl. Neither has Siemens. Stewart hasn't been the same since breaking his hand in a fight vs a guy from Minny

Eric Johnson has played in the olympics as a 20 YEAR OLD. He's 24 and has been very good for the Avs with little to no help. It's not like he plays with Suter or Weber or even someone like Scuderi.

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01-27-2013, 02:35 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
Time to bump this one up:

It is make or break time now for Greg.

How he handles the ROR situation and what he does next offseason will determine the success of this franchise for the next 4-6 years.

I am very curious how this will turn out.
Yup. Fair or not, his handling of this situation will define whether he is successful or not.

Avs fans have also been patient with this team because of the promise of a lot of the prospects. If we don't get at least one impact defenseman out of Siemens, Elliott, Gaunce, and Barrie, that will be an failure of epic proportions.

I'd say his only blunder thus far has been Jan Hejda. Not only has he been a disappointment, but on a blueline with Wilson, O'Brien, O'Byrne, and now Zanon, he's redundant.

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01-27-2013, 02:38 PM
  #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Elliot had 972 shots against in 38 games last year. or 25 per game. Varlamov had 1564 in 53 games last year or 29 per game. Not a huge difference.

Johnson is good yes but he is not the top pairing D-man we thought he would be. Not even close.

Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, JM Liles, Filip Forsberg and Ty Rattie

FOR

Eric Johnson, Semyon Varlamov, Duncan Siemens and a 2nd round pick

Would you do that deal today?
There's a pretty big difference between shots and shot quality on the Avs and Blues.

Johnson is most definitely a top pairing defenseman. If you don't think so, you're very much in the minority there.

I would make that trade. Stewart is streaky, plays when he wants too. Shattenkirk is a real good defenseman, no doubt, and the Avs had Liles for years and got nowhere with him. He's 5th on TOI per game on the Leafs defense. Maybe you should wait until Rattie and Forsberg do anything in the NHL before calling them stars.

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01-27-2013, 02:38 PM
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Elliot had 972 shots against in 38 games last year. or 25 per game. Varlamov had 1564 in 53 games last year or 29 per game. Not a huge difference.

Johnson is good yes but he is not the top pairing D-man we thought he would be. Not even close.

Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, JM Liles, Filip Forsberg and Ty Rattie

FOR

Eric Johnson, Semyon Varlamov, Duncan Siemens and a 2nd round pick

Would you do that deal today?
yes.

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01-27-2013, 02:41 PM
  #447
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But Eric Johnson and Duncan Siemens are?
Really? We have no idea what kind of player Siemens will be in the NHL.

Erik Johnson has been fine for us. Yeah, it was a very steep price to pay, but there was no player like EJ on the roster or in the system. It's obvious they have faith that Elliott and/or Barrie will provide what we lost in Shattenkirk. Stewart, like Galiardi, conducted himself in a way that rubbed Avs management the wrong way, and thereby made himself expendable.

It's been a long, bumpy ride when it comes to impact scoring forwards on the Avs. The team has now parted ways with Wolski, Stewart, Fleischmann, and Mueller, and the best chance to replace the scoring lost with those guys is currently still recovering from a concussion suffered in 2011. It's understandable WHY those players were let go, but nonetheless, the absence of that scoring is clearly showing in this year's product.


Last edited by Av-merican: 01-27-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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01-27-2013, 02:54 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post

The BAD:

1- Ryan Smyth to LA for Quincey. Quincey to Detroit for Downie.
I'd rather have Ryan Smyth than the other two. The old veteran Smyth's leadership would be in-valuable on this young team. Downie is a freaking moron and his antics cost us games.

2- Stewart, Shattenkirk and Ty Rattie are stars.
We lost out horribly on that trade. Terrible. Terrible trade. Johnson has been Ok but look what we gave up. It's sickening to see the players we gave up. I hope Siemens turns out to be the next Pronger or this could be one of the worst trades ever.

3- Brian Elliot. We could have had him and our 1st round pick (Filip Forsberg) instead of Varly. I love Varly but we gave up alot for him and let a good goalie go for free.

4- The Varly trade. It wasn't needed. Filip Forsberg and our 2013 pick would be nice especially considering we had Elliot.

4- JM Liles for a 2nd round pick
Are you *** kidding me? Shattenkirk and Liles are better than anyone we have on our D right now.
1- No. Downie is better younger and cheaper than Smyth. And he did NOT cost us games. He had one game where he was undisciplined and that's it. Last season everyone was so high on him because of what he brought to the table and after one game where he was rusty people have soured on him. Typical goldfish memory fans.

2- Stewart has been terrible since the trade, Shattenkirk is probably the most overrated ex-av of all time, Rattie is a question mark and at best will be a 2nd line winger. EJ is a #1 d-man in the making and has been getting better ever since the trade, McClement was fantastic on the PK and Siemens is developing very well considering how his Jr team has treated him. He's going to be a Coburn-esque stud, it will just take some time, no need to rush him.

3- Wow, NOBODY wanted to keep Elliot after the abysmal showing he gave us. Varly is going to be something special, I'd do that trade every day of the week.

4- Again, there is no way that Elliot has the type of season he had last year on this team. He needed a fresh start in a very forgiving defensive system.

5- The Liles trade is the only one here I agree with, but they were trying to trade him for years so it wasn't a surprise. I wish they would have gotten a roster player for him instead but c'est la vie.

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01-27-2013, 02:58 PM
  #449
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Don't agree with what you posted and I love EJ, but it does sting to see how amazingly Shatty has blossomed in St. Louis. He's good at both ends of the ice and has developed into a terrific player.

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01-27-2013, 03:02 PM
  #450
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Shattenkirk is really overrated now. His offense is great and he's a very smart player, but he's sheltered defensively and plays on a much better team. He's a solid top 4 pod, but nowhere close to EJ overall.

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