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Old
08-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
If I'm in the position of Howson and I'm forced to trade Nash, I'm not going to accept my organization becoming completely bereft of first line talent on the ice and in the prospect pool. That means I'm looking for a top 5 pick in return or a top prospect, even if it means we get 2 pieces back for Nash instead of 4.
And if no one will give it to you, keep him?

The rest of your post is just noise. I'm trying to stay on topic.

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08-07-2012, 12:10 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
If I'm in the position of Howson and I'm forced to trade Nash, I'm not going to accept my organization becoming completely bereft of first line talent on the ice and in the prospect pool. That means I'm looking for a top 5 pick in return or a top prospect, even if it means we get 2 pieces back for Nash instead of 4.
Well, you weren't going to get a top five pick. Nash wasn't going to go to a team with a top five pick. Erixon was actually one of their top prospects. Really not sure where we were going with this to be honest. Yes, Erixon isn't Dougie Hamilton. Boston wasn't going to trade him. Just using that as an example. As you look at more examples from the teams in question, your criteria really breaks down.

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08-07-2012, 12:37 PM
  #403
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If I'm in the position of Howson and I'm forced to trade Nash, I'm not going to accept my organization becoming completely bereft of first line talent on the ice and in the prospect pool. That means I'm looking for a top 5 pick in return or a top prospect, even if it means we get 2 pieces back for Nash instead of 4.

This board always falls for the great illusion of "it can't get any worse," thinking that change just for change's sake will fix things. Look at the "lowest point as a jackets fan" thread for proof. Well, change for change's sake sure worked out well when we got rid of Hitchcock. And change for change's sake worked out well when we brought in Arniel. Why wouldn't change for change's sake work just as well here with an entire team trying to play a full line above where they belong?
So you wouldn't have traded Nash. It doesn't look there were many, if any, options for Howson that would satisfy your demands for him. You may have been able to get Kreider and Dubinsky from New York, Couturier and a first (or something like that) from Philly, or possibly some other return from another team on Nash’s list. Unfortunately, I don’t know how interested New York or Philly would have been in those deals. I also get the feeling Philly wasn’t interested in Nash at all, they just wanted to make sure New York didn’t get him cheap. Other than that, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Boston, and San Jose likely didn’t have the assets they’d be willing to give up for Nash, either. I suppose you could attempt to get Nash to expand his list in order to get a better return, but it sounds like Nash was either going to be playing for a team on his list or the Columbus Bluejackets next season.

Trades don’t necessarily have to “hurt” anyone involved, and I both teams were “hurt” by the results of the trade. Of course, that doesn’t mean that both teams are worse now than before – I think both Columbus and New York came out better teams by the result here. New York lost a good bit of its depth in this trade, specifically down the middle, but gained a proven first line goal scorer. Columbus lost a proven first line talent, but gained forward depth that they desperately need. Anyway, the reasons for this trade and the outcome have been discussed ad nauseum on this site. Suffice it to say, I doubt any trade that would seriously “hurt” the team receiving Nash would have been made.

On your second point, I disagree that change was made for change’s sake. By most accounts, Hitchcock had lost the locker room by the time he was fired. It seemed that Arniel was hired instead of Noel because Howson wanted a fresh start with a brand new coaching staff, not a staff of Hitchcock’s leftovers. Playing “a full line above where they belong” is something many NHL players are used to. Injuries occur in this league. Free agents and prospects push people down depth charts. Dubinsky and Anisimov were top six forwards on a playoff team in New York two years ago. Richards and Stepan managed to push them both down the depth chart. There’s no reason to believe they can’t play well in a similar capacity in Columbus. At some point you have to let guys like Johansen and Atkinson sink or swim, as well. If these guys are going to be a part of the future in Columbus, they need more ice time and more responsibility. They can be coddled playing in Springfield if they still need it.

You should try and manage your expectations a bit. Columbus, even with a top prospect in return for Nash, would likely continue to be one of the worst teams in the league next season. With some luck, this franchise will discover its identity next year and draft a future superstar in Mackinnon or Jones. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, and I think there would be plenty for the fanbase to be excited about if that scenario plays out.

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08-07-2012, 12:42 PM
  #404
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You don't have to be the MOST talented team to win, but you actually have to have SOME talent. From the Kings I'd take Kopitar, Williams, Brown, Richards, Doughty and Quick over anybody we have here. And From Boston I'd take Chara, Lucic, Krejci and Thomas over anybody we have here. I'd also want Seguin since he has top line upside and fits the youth movement we're going with.

You can build from the ground up while acquiring potential top tier talent. How is it that in dealing Nash, our best player and the best player in the deal by far, the Rangers didn't even have to give up something that would hurt even a little bit? There should've been one top tier talent coming back, whether he pans out or not is another issue, but these guys with their absolute ceiling if they max out their talents as decent 2nd liners? Don't we already have enough of that? How do you trade a perennial 30 goal scorer, all-star forward and not get a top prospect or a very high pick out of it? That's insane.

I know everyone likes the guys who play their hearts out but I'd take a team of all Rick Nashs or, God forbid, all Jeff Carters over a team of all Derek Dorsetts. At least the talented teams have a good shot at winning night in and night out.
Not to nitpick but I'm gonna..... Erixon was considered, by more than a few, the NYR top prospect.

As for the bolded, having "all" of one type of player or thing isn't a winning formula for any scenario - business, sports, life, etc. I know you are exagerating but that's pretty extreme to compare all Nashs to all Dorsetts. Dubinsky and Anisimov are somewhere between the two and likely offer a balance of skill, defensive awareness and grit. Will it be enough? Don't know yet but I don't view them as the low end players you appear to.

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08-07-2012, 01:36 PM
  #405
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One aberration does not a system make. Nashville tends to finish middle of the road in G/G. Peaking as high as 5th 6 years ago and dipping as low as 24th 4 years ago. Obviously this system isn't very consistent or predictable. This would probably explain why they're generally a low seed in the playoffs, facing more talented teams, and usually losing, in the first round of the playoffs.

I do find it interesting that even with the team scoring more goals per game than they normally do, they still had the same outcome as usual. Winning no more than 2 games in their losing round. Thanks for pointing that out.
I encourage you to find a few teams that in that same timespan HAVEN'T similarly jumped around in the goals per game standings.

It'll be nigh-impossible, because of the number of changes made to teams during that span of time. The 6 years ago peak, for example, was immediately followed by Leipold basically ordering Poile to dismantle most of the team. Philadelphia had that disastrous 06-07 season in which they finished last in the NHL and lost the lottery. Detroit had a drop in 09-10 when Hossa and Samuelsson left. Pittsburgh's 2010-2011 was low for obvious reasons, and of course six years ago was at the tail end of their early years of suck. The list goes on.

All I'm seeing here is bitterness that we didn't get a superstar and more back with Nash, coupled with an implied complete dismissal of our blueline.

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I know everyone likes the guys who play their hearts out but I'd take a team of all Rick Nashs or, God forbid, all Jeff Carters over a team of all Derek Dorsetts. At least the talented teams have a good shot at winning night in and night out.
The Edmonton Oilers would be happy to welcome you into the fold.

We don't have to imitate LA's current state to be competitive, y'know.

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It is a re-building year. Relax. It does not happen instantly. At least now they are attempting to do it correctly. I, for one, am willing to ride our the growth process. All I would like to see is some growth this year.
I'm sorry, but who are you and what have you done with EDM? Not that your presence is unwelcome or anything...

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08-07-2012, 02:58 PM
  #406
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The Edmonton Oilers would be happy to welcome you into the fold.

We don't have to imitate LA's current state to be competitive, y'know.
I love how every year teams try to imitate the team who won the cup the year before, and almost every year a team that is totally different from the previous winners wins it.

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08-07-2012, 03:14 PM
  #407
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The Edmonton Oilers would be happy to welcome you into the fold.
Meh, he statement doesn't make much sense to begin with. He references Rick Nash then brings up Dorse. I hate to say it, but Dorse it to Dubinsky as Dubinsky is to Nash. Well kind of. There is nothing to be gained from his analogy as guys like Prospal, RJ, Dubinsky, AA, etc are all more skilled in the offensive zone than Dorse is. He's just lumping Dubinsky and AA into a 3rd line, checking role. They are more than that.

His dismissive attitude to Erixon is also an issue. Erixon is our second best defensive prospect, probably the best offensive prospect. The issue with evaluating him was more around wanting to play here than his skill level.

I don't know what can be gained from his analysis of the situation. There isn't a fair analysis be performed on his end.

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08-07-2012, 03:21 PM
  #408
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I love how every year teams try to imitate the team who won the cup the year before, and almost every year a team that is totally different from the previous winners wins it.
Heh. My aspiration is to be the trendsetter someday. I mean, imagine if we won the Cup this year. How many "first liners are overrated, depth and blueline skill is where it's at" type posts would we get that summer?

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Meh, he statement doesn't make much sense to begin with. He references Rick Nash then brings up Dorse. I hate to say it, but Dorse it to Dubinsky as Dubinsky is to Nash. Well kind of. There is nothing to be gained from his analogy as guys like Prospal, RJ, Dubinsky, AA, etc are all more skilled in the offensive zone than Dorse is. He's just lumping Dubinsky and AA into a 3rd line, checking role. They are more than that.

His dismissive attitude to Erixon is also an issue. Erixon is our second best defensive prospect, probably the best offensive prospect. The issue with evaluating him was more around wanting to play here than his skill level.

I don't know what can be gained from his analysis of the situation. There isn't a fair analysis be performed on his end.
I kind of gave up on real analysis there about twenty-some posts ago, to be honest.

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08-07-2012, 03:42 PM
  #409
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You should try and manage your expectations a bit. Columbus, even with a top prospect in return for Nash, would likely continue to be one of the worst teams in the league next season. With some luck, this franchise will discover its identity next year and draft a future superstar in Mackinnon or Jones. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, and I think there would be plenty for the fanbase to be excited about if that scenario plays out.
I fully expect the jackets to be last, I'm not sure how much more managed my expectations can be. At least with a top young prospect the future would look a little brighter. We can talk about drafting Mackinnon or Jones to turn this thing around, but more than likely we would be doing that anyways.

I guess I'm just not a TR00 enough fan to see all the major improvements we've made offensively this offseason. Or maybe you guys will all be *****ing about the severe lack of goal scoring by the time the tenth game rolls around.

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08-07-2012, 03:50 PM
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I fully expect the jackets to be last, I'm not sure how much more managed my expectations can be. At least with a top young prospect the future would look a little brighter. We can talk about drafting Mackinnon or Jones to turn this thing around, but more than likely we would be doing that anyways.

I guess I'm just not a TR00 enough fan to see all the major improvements we've made offensively this offseason. Or maybe you guys will all be *****ing about the severe lack of goal scoring by the time the tenth game rolls around.
Okay, and where was that top prospect going to come from?

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08-07-2012, 03:57 PM
  #411
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Goaltending is the only reason why I don't have high expectations for the Jackets.

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08-07-2012, 04:05 PM
  #412
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I fully expect the jackets to be last, I'm not sure how much more managed my expectations can be. At least with a top young prospect the future would look a little brighter. We can talk about drafting Mackinnon or Jones to turn this thing around, but more than likely we would be doing that anyways.

I guess I'm just not a TR00 enough fan to see all the major improvements we've made offensively this offseason. Or maybe you guys will all be *****ing about the severe lack of goal scoring by the time the tenth game rolls around.
Offensive improvements are not limited to signing "offensive" players like nash or carter. Having a full season Wiz and JJ working the power play is already an offensive improvement. Having the depth to wear teams down and have more offensive zone starts is an offensive improvement.

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08-07-2012, 04:41 PM
  #413
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Okay, and where was that top prospect going to come from?
From wherever I trade Nash to. And if it's not coming back then Nash isn't going. Pretty simple.

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08-07-2012, 05:47 PM
  #414
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From wherever I trade Nash to. And if it's not coming back then Nash isn't going. Pretty simple.
The team wasn't winning with Nash in the lineup. How much worse will it be without Nash in the lineup? We already finished 30th, might as well at least give Rick what he wants - a chance to win.

I get what you're saying. You don't think we got enough of a return from the Rangers, and to an extent I agree. I don't like Artem Anisimov, I think, at best, Tim Erixon is a second pairing defenseman; and Brandon Dubinsky is another second/third line forward. But, if we aren't having any success, maybe this team just needs some different salary allotments and trading Rick Nash away frees up the money to spend elsewhere? Maybe a change of culture in the locker room is the answer?

I've seen teams win championships at every level of hockey, and 9/10 times, it's not the most "talented" team that wins. Teams that work hard and compete, even if they are slightly less skilled, typically prevail against skilled, underachieving teams. Were the Jackets better off before or after the Jeff Carter trade? With his play and "don't give a ****" attitude, I would say they were much better off once he was gone. Yet, he was probably the second best player to ever suit up for this team.

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08-07-2012, 06:06 PM
  #415
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From wherever I trade Nash to. And if it's not coming back then Nash isn't going. Pretty simple.
So we're back to having Nash on the team and perhaps Galchenyuk either in Columbus or juniors. What else should be done to further your preferred direction for the team?

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08-07-2012, 06:13 PM
  #416
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The team wasn't winning with Nash in the lineup. How much worse will it be without Nash in the lineup? We already finished 30th, might as well at least give Rick what he wants - a chance to win.

I get what you're saying. You don't think we got enough of a return from the Rangers, and to an extent I agree. I don't like Artem Anisimov, I think, at best, Tim Erixon is a second pairing defenseman; and Brandon Dubinsky is another second/third line forward. But, if we aren't having any success, maybe this team just needs some different salary allotments and trading Rick Nash away frees up the money to spend elsewhere? Maybe a change of culture in the locker room is the answer?

I've seen teams win championships at every level of hockey, and 9/10 times, it's not the most "talented" team that wins. Teams that work hard and compete, even if they are slightly less skilled, typically prevail against skilled, underachieving teams. Were the Jackets better off before or after the Jeff Carter trade? With his play and "don't give a ****" attitude, I would say they were much better off once he was gone. Yet, he was probably the second best player to ever suit up for this team.
The team has two responsibilities to the fans.

1. Be Competitive
2. Be Entertaining.

The first part goes with being a tough team to play against and having a chance to win any time against any team. Don't be out of the playoffs by February and actually look like a cohesive unit.

The second part has to do more with showmanship and value. People are paying to watch because they want to be entertained. In order to do that, you have to score goals and have a player(s) that can be the face of the franchise. Even Nashville who scored by committee had Weber, Suter, and Rinne as their stars. Phoenix had Doan and now Yandle, OEL, and Smith. Edmonton had Hall, RNH, and Eberle.

Columbus had one player that was All-Star caliber and had name recognition. That was Nash. By failing to return a player with that recognition Howson has failed to uphold his second duty to the fans. He should have told Nash tough luck. Nash wasn't holding Columbus back from winning, he just wasn't doing enough by himself to ensure it. Johansen and Murray may be those franchise guys in the future. Umberger, Johnson, and Wisniewski may be those players soon. But they aren't until they are. Personally, I don't think Umberger and Wisniewski ever will be.

The Jackets have my money already. What I want this season is a modest request. I want to see wins but more than that I also want to see great saves, big hits, dekes and beautiful goals. They don't have to be all the time like some teams get, but they shouldn't be nonexistant either. Cut it any way you want, we are about to see a team with inexperienced players getting big minutes, NO first line forwards, a defense that has not spent even half a season together, and two big question marks in goal.

I'm really just talking about the bare minimum that we as NHL fans deserve of the team and so far Howson has failed to deliver.


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08-07-2012, 06:20 PM
  #417
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The team wasn't winning with Nash in the lineup. How much worse will it be without Nash in the lineup? We already finished 30th, might as well at least give Rick what he wants - a chance to win.

I get what you're saying. You don't think we got enough of a return from the Rangers, and to an extent I agree. I don't like Artem Anisimov, I think, at best, Tim Erixon is a second pairing defenseman; and Brandon Dubinsky is another second/third line forward. But, if we aren't having any success, maybe this team just needs some different salary allotments and trading Rick Nash away frees up the money to spend elsewhere? Maybe a change of culture in the locker room is the answer?

I've seen teams win championships at every level of hockey, and 9/10 times, it's not the most "talented" team that wins. Teams that work hard and compete, even if they are slightly less skilled, typically prevail against skilled, underachieving teams. Were the Jackets better off before or after the Jeff Carter trade? With his play and "don't give a ****" attitude, I would say they were much better off once he was gone. Yet, he was probably the second best player to ever suit up for this team.
First, Let me just go ahead and refer you to the last paragraph here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=399

The thing is, we didn't trade Nash away to free up space so we could sign someone. We signed nobody. Perhaps that will be something utilized in the future to sign someone but unused cap space isn't really an asset during the season unless you're looking to acquire a high priced contract as the season goes on. It's pretty doubtful the jackets are going to make any kind of a trade or signing using a large portion of that space at this point. Most likely we will temporarily mortgage that cap space with another team's bad contract in exchange for bringing in some other middling prospect.

And we're not talking about a team that is "slightly less skilled" we're talking about a team now completely bereft of a single top line talent going against teams that do have that talent. The difference between a true first liner and a true 2nd liner is larger than the difference between a 4th liner and an average beer leaguer, that's why first line players cost so much money.

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08-07-2012, 06:53 PM
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Jeff Carter. Yet, he was probably the second best player to ever suit up for this team.
Fedorov
Foote
Whitney
Sanderson?
Vyborny
Modin?
Prospal?

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08-07-2012, 07:06 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
The team has two responsibilities to the fans.

1. Be Competitive
2. Be Entertaining.

The first part goes with being a tough team to play against and having a chance to win any time against any team. Don't be out of the playoffs by February and actually look like a cohesive unit.

The second part has to do more with showmanship and value. People are paying to watch because they want to be entertained. In order to do that, you have to score goals and have a player(s) that can be the face of the franchise. Even Nashville who scored by committee had Weber, Suter, and Rinne as their stars. Phoenix had Doan and now Yandle, OEL, and Smith. Edmonton had Hall, RNH, and Eberle.

Columbus had one player that was All-Star caliber and had name recognition. That was Nash. By failing to return a player with that recognition Howson has failed to uphold his second duty to the fans. He should have told Nash tough luck. Nash wasn't holding Columbus back from winning, he just wasn't doing enough by himself to ensure it. Johansen and Murray may be those franchise guys in the future. Umberger, Johnson, and Wisniewski may be those players soon. But they aren't until they are. Personally, I don't think Umberger and Wisniewski ever will be.

The Jackets have my money already. What I want this season is a modest request. I want to see wins but more than that I also want to see great saves, big hits, dekes and beautiful goals. They don't have to be all the time like some teams get, but they shouldn't be nonexistant either. Cut it any way you want, we are about to see a team with inexperienced players getting big minutes, NO first line forwards, a defense that has not spent even half a season together, and two big question marks in goal.

I'm really just talking about the bare minimum that we as NHL fans deserve of the team and so far Howson has failed to deliver.
I have to admit that it truly has me utterly confused that folks so focused on flashy style seem to be completely disregarding JMFJ-Wiz and guys like Brassard and Atkinson.

Hell, just take one of Nikitin's disgustingly good outlet passes. Remember the insta-breakaway against Detroit where he turned back to get a pass Gillies sent into his skates back onto his stick, turned around at the top of the circles in our zone, and then the next thing you know Brassard's on a break for the score? 100+foot "blink and you miss it" tape to tape. Beautiful.

You don't need a cast of All-Stars to see awesome plays and entertaining hockey. Heck, sometimes you get more of it without them.

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08-07-2012, 07:12 PM
  #420
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I have to admit that it truly has me utterly confused that folks so focused on flashy style seem to be completely disregarding JMFJ-Wiz and guys like Brassard and Atkinson.

Hell, just take one of Nikitin's disgustingly good outlet passes. Remember the insta-breakaway against Detroit where he turned back to get a pass Gillies sent into his skates back onto his stick, turned around at the top of the circles in our zone, and then the next thing you know Brassard's on a break for the score? 100+foot "blink and you miss it" tape to tape. Beautiful.

You don't need a cast of All-Stars to see awesome plays and entertaining hockey. Heck, sometimes you get more of it without them.
What?

Brassard and especially Atkinson aren't anything yet. I'm hoping they go 20-40-60 but won't hold my breath.

You are massively overrating Nikitin, Atkinson, and Brassard (much like Howson is). Until they show more, they aren't what you claim them to be. Expect Atkinson to go 15-10-25 if he stays up in the NHL. Brassard will hit his usual 40-point plateau. Nikitin may have been a flash in the pan.

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08-07-2012, 07:17 PM
  #421
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The thing is, we didn't trade Nash away to free up space so we could sign someone. We signed nobody. Perhaps that will be something utilized in the future to sign someone but unused cap space isn't really an asset during the season unless you're looking to acquire a high priced contract as the season goes on. It's pretty doubtful the jackets are going to make any kind of a trade or signing using a large portion of that space at this point. Most likely we will temporarily mortgage that cap space with another team's bad contract in exchange for bringing in some other middling prospect.

And we're not talking about a team that is "slightly less skilled" we're talking about a team now completely bereft of a single top line talent going against teams that do have that talent. The difference between a true first liner and a true 2nd liner is larger than the difference between a 4th liner and an average beer leaguer, that's why first line players cost so much money.
I don't disagree with your points here. We aren't nearly as skilled as most of the other teams in the NHL, and we definitely did not go out and sign any big name free agents. The thing is, we have to establish something before we can attract any big name free agents (not that there were many this year). And, we have to establish a competing group before we can look at bringing in any young skill that matters. Look at some of the guys who have failed here because they weren't forced to battle for their spots in the lineup, or because they simple weren't showed the right way.

With the team we have now, we aren't going to be great, but I can assure you that the days of the carefree Jackets are coming to an end. Certainly, that wasn't completely Rick Nash's fault; but as was mentioned above, he wasn't capable of doing it on his own. Which comes back to the added assets/salary allotment thing. Hypothetically, this team doesn't improve much in the standings this year; but they establish a group of guys who don't back down from a challenge, who bind together instead of fall apart, and use the three first round picks next year to not only bring in some young talent, but perhaps attract some free agent talent that may not have signed here before. And, we'll have the cap space to do it.

A rebuild takes time. We weren't going to trade Rick Nash and get back guys who were going to turn this around right away. We knew going in that we wouldn't be getting a Jeff Skinner or Ryan McDonagh, and those teams made it very clear that it wouldn't happen when it was mentioned. It might not work, you're right. But, something had to be done. The formula just wasn't right.

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08-07-2012, 07:22 PM
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
I don't disagree with your points here. We aren't nearly as skilled as most of the other teams in the NHL, and we definitely did not go out and sign any big name free agents. The thing is, we have to establish something before we can attract any big name free agents (not that there were many this year). And, we have to establish a competing group before we can look at bringing in any young skill that matters. Look at some of the guys who have failed here because they weren't forced to battle for their spots in the lineup, or because they simple weren't showed the right way.

With the team we have now, we aren't going to be great, but I can assure you that the days of the carefree Jackets are coming to an end. Certainly, that wasn't completely Rick Nash's fault; but as was mentioned above, he wasn't capable of doing it on his own. Which comes back to the added assets/salary allotment thing. Hypothetically, this team doesn't improve much in the standings this year; but they establish a group of guys who don't back down from a challenge, who bind together instead of fall apart, and use the three first round picks next year to not only bring in some young talent, but perhaps attract some free agent talent that may not have signed here before. And, we'll have the cap space to do it.

A rebuild takes time. We weren't going to trade Rick Nash and get back guys who were going to turn this around right away. We knew going in that we wouldn't be getting a Jeff Skinner or Ryan McDonagh, and those teams made it very clear that it wouldn't happen when it was mentioned. It might not work, you're right. But, something had to be done. The formula just wasn't right.
We should never have gotten to the place that the roster was (is) at. If there is nothing here to lure in free agents and help our draft picks realize their potential, HOWSON SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED. Once again, we're talking about the bare minimum of running an NHL team. There are expectations.

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08-07-2012, 08:16 PM
  #423
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Getting Nash and his work hard half the time attitude out of here was a fundamental part of the rebuild. Creating a climate where working hard is expect 100% of the time, regardless of the score or place in the standings is fundamental to building a winner. While Nash may have been loved here, the rest of the league had apparently made a different judgement about Rick. I am satisified with what Howson got back. At least it is consistent (for once) with what we are tying to do. As Stretch Factor said, I can now finally see an actual plan being used. Whether I like Howson or not, the plan makes sense and he deserves a chance to implement it. So let's see how the year plays out. All that being said, I still wish he would get rid of Mason even if he has to give him away.

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08-07-2012, 08:20 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
I don't disagree with your points here. We aren't nearly as skilled as most of the other teams in the NHL, and we definitely did not go out and sign any big name free agents. The thing is, we have to establish something before we can attract any big name free agents (not that there were many this year). And, we have to establish a competing group before we can look at bringing in any young skill that matters. Look at some of the guys who have failed here because they weren't forced to battle for their spots in the lineup, or because they simple weren't showed the right way.

With the team we have now, we aren't going to be great, but I can assure you that the days of the carefree Jackets are coming to an end. Certainly, that wasn't completely Rick Nash's fault; but as was mentioned above, he wasn't capable of doing it on his own. Which comes back to the added assets/salary allotment thing. Hypothetically, this team doesn't improve much in the standings this year; but they establish a group of guys who don't back down from a challenge, who bind together instead of fall apart, and use the three first round picks next year to not only bring in some young talent, but perhaps attract some free agent talent that may not have signed here before. And, we'll have the cap space to do it.

A rebuild takes time. We weren't going to trade Rick Nash and get back guys who were going to turn this around right away. We knew going in that we wouldn't be getting a Jeff Skinner or Ryan McDonagh, and those teams made it very clear that it wouldn't happen when it was mentioned. It might not work, you're right. But, something had to be done. The formula just wasn't right.
Just an aside to the earlier point about freeing up capspace. If all three Rangers players acquired in the trade play for us in the NHL we actually lost cap space in the trade [though not by much].

I don't think any free agents are going to be interested in coming to the Blue Jackets simply because they have a scrappy team. They're either looking for money or for a chance to hoist the cup. The question is are we willing to provide the first or able to provide the latter.

Hopefully we establish a group of guys who don't crumble like last year, but that's not written in stone. It could just as easily end up being a bunch of kids who want to be the "go-to guy" when the situation is on the line but don't have the ability to pull off that role. Only time will tell.

A rebuild takes more time when you fail to get appropriately talented assets of the right age. I find it hard to believe that we couldn't wrestle one of Stepan or Kreider away from NY. Asking for Jeff Skinner was obviously a no go. But when trading away a proven top line talent, it really shouldn't be too much to ask to get a potential top line talent in return, which we failed to do. Most teams aren't going to trade you a top line talent for next to nothing. You have to grow it yourselves or pay bigtime either through free agency or a trade. We didn't get any assets for home-growing the top tier talent, we're not attractive to free agents right now and we have no bullets left for a big trade. We're in trouble.

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08-07-2012, 08:21 PM
  #425
pete goegan
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The difference between a true first liner and a true 2nd liner is larger than the difference between a 4th liner and an average beer leaguer, that's why first line players cost so much money.
Congratulations, that may well be the single silliest comment I've ever seen posted on this site. You didn't need to be totally rediculous to make your point. If you truly believe that, it negates the value of everything else you've ever said.

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