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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-08-2012, 06:31 PM
  #276
Canadiens1958
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Ice Time / Role and AST voting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, but you seemed to be arguing he was a #3/4 on his own team despite the ice time numbers. But then why would he be the one thrown a few votes, rather than his teammates?
Comes down to how the game is coached. Post 1967 expansion a number of the expansion teams would rotate 5 dmen using various approaches. Rank them 1,2,3,4,5. Basic approach was to define the #1,#2 dmen who would be split for the PK and ES time. A Ted Harris, Leo Boivin would get minimal PP time. The 3,4,5 defenseman would rotate thru. Factor in PP time and you see that the 3rd, 4th could get more ice time than the 1 and 2 but it would be the easier ice time.

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08-08-2012, 06:40 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selfish Man View Post
With selection #253, the Pittsburgh Hornets select:

Ilkka Sinisalo, LW
Jeez, what am I missing on this guy? I see at least a few dozen post-expansion wingers with better offensive resumes. It’s unfathomable how he could have risen 80 spots after the kicking he took in last year’s playoffs.
I wanted a winger with a good two-way game for my fourth line. That's as opposed to the second line role that Sinisalo "took a kicking" for.

That's good btw, describing your own critique of a player, when specifically compared to another player, as "taking a kicking." From now on any players I select won't be drafted, they'll be "enshrined."

You dislike the pick, terrific.

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08-08-2012, 06:41 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Just like most of the methods of evaluating players you have introduced, looking at ice time for defenseman is a usefull too. Unfortunately, also like all those other methods, this is not the be-all and end-all of player evaluation. It's even more questionable when we start getting into estimated ice time.

Being a #1 defenseman is a good thing. I don't think anybody would argue that. The question is, "how good is it?", and that's where numerous other factors come into play. For me, the biggest other factor is competition for that #1 job. If a player is consistently beating out really good players for ice time, that says a lot for me. For example, a 37 year old Leo Boivin and a 37-40 year old Doug Mohns are not serious competition. A 35 year old Gary Bergman and 35 year old Ted Haris is also pretty weak in terms of competition.
That’s fine, but like I said, if you take a knife to the record of any other available NHL defenseman in the same manner, you will see the same thing, only even more drastic.

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Also, the defensive record of the team means a lot to me. Other minor factors, such as overall team strength, special teams time, and even the coach of the team come into play.
You should be pleasantly surprised by my last post.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Usage outline.

Initially with the Canadiens he continued the tradition of a swing forward/defenseman like Bob Turner with one difference, Roberts would fill in at RW in a pinch.

With St.Louis, original expansion, once Scotty Bowman took over as coach he settled into a Ed Westfall type RW role with some emergency type dman minutes. Bowman regularly played 6 dmen plus Roberts. In the group was Jean-Guy Talbot who would swing as a PK forward and LW. Roberts over 20 minutes TOI is high.

Back to the Canadiens, Roberts was moved to the checking line RW role by Scotty Bowman. on a team that basically rotated four lines with some creative double shifting and use of swing players.

Last year in St.Louis:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/STL/1978.html

Doubt the accuracy of HR data. Note RW game total < 70 games. From games against the Canadiens Roberts played RW.
For Roberts to have TOI estimates in the 17 minute range in the 1972 and 1974 season there had to be some time spent on the blueline. It’s the only way he’d have been on the ice for so many more goals than the other checking forwards were.

1975 was almost certainly a year spent on defense too, considering the G:A ratio 5:13, estimated TOI (16 min) and shooting percentage (5.9% which was the lowest of his career except 1979 when he was clearly a D-man.)

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
And I totally agree with this. The example I could come up with is something like what if I was to say Karel Gut was a #1 defenseman on his team for 8 consecutive seasons (might be true, might not, for the sake of this example let's just say it is). What does that really mean? Gibbs competition isn't exactly impressive to me either, just how Gut's wasn't within their own teams. Also, Gibbs' defenses were mostly average to bad.
That’s kinda silly, comparing 1950s Czechoslovakia to the NHL though. Obviously it would be apples and oranges, just like if I threw in my World Championship and soviet all-stars into one bucket with my NHL all-stars and said “my defense corps has 24 all-star selections!!!”

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-Sinisalo has a pretty good defensive pedigree though doesn't he?
Pretty sure he doesn’t. I think you’re thinking of a different 80s Flyer.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
#1 dman. Not a claim to be taken seriously. With Minnesota was surrounded by veterans, listed above, plus a solid young veteran. The veterans minutes were managed to optimize by keeping them fresh. Barry Gibbs was always protected on the ice with a veteran or a solid young veteran. So the TOI minutes may be high but the responsibilities were low.
Well of course he was always on the ice with a veteran; there were usually two of those guys #2 and 3 in icetime behind him every season. It’s easy to make that claim but impossible to prove it with any degree of credibility.

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Atlanta/St.Louis/LA, simply there were better dmen on each team. Sorry no names - draft.

Overall you are looking at a 3rd/4th dman on non-playoff or borderline teams who was never sought by solid or elite teams to bolster the team.
If other defensemen were better then their coaches who want to win hockey games would have played them more than him, or at the very least, it would have been closer. He often led by 4+ minutes. And why would he get the all-star votes and they wouldn’t? Thank you votes from media? That’s conspiracy theory material.

Gibbs played the most minutes, he played them over some ATD-caliber players, and the teams were pretty good defensively as a result – sometimes near-elite. Why would the 1975 scouting report call him the team’s best all-around rearguard? Why would Cliff Fletcher say he had was one of the ten best defensemen in the league? Why did he make the All-star game over his defense mates?

Not enough credit is being given here.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
There has always been a link between handful of AST votes and being liked by the media.
Was Gibbs a media darling?

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Old
08-08-2012, 06:50 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Comes down to how the game is coached. Post 1967 expansion a number of the expansion teams would rotate 5 dmen using various approaches. Rank them 1,2,3,4,5. Basic approach was to define the #1,#2 dmen who would be split for the PK and ES time. A Ted Harris, Leo Boivin would get minimal PP time. The 3,4,5 defenseman would rotate thru. Factor in PP time and you see that the 3rd, 4th could get more ice time than the 1 and 2 but it would be the easier ice time.
That doesn’t hold water. Gibbs was the ES time leader too.

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Originally Posted by Selfish Man View Post
I wanted a winger with a good two-way game for my fourth line. That's as opposed to the second line role that Sinisalo "took a kicking" for.
Fair enough. But what two-way game?

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That's good btw, describing your own critique of a player, when specifically compared to another player, as "taking a kicking."
Heh. Yeah, that’s exactly what it was, but TBH, that player’s GM thought he was better than Grant Warwick and had his “competitive” hat on and took liberties in his comparisons. He didn’t have a very good answer for the kicking, IIRC.

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From now on any players I select won't be drafted, they'll be "enshrined."

You dislike the pick, terrific.
I don’t know what the first part means, but there is no need to take anything personally. The ATD vets here want to see the “right” players get taken, and guys like VI, TDMM and myself in particular can get pretty vocal about that. It can be frustrating to see a guy get taken too early, then you think you’ve conclusively proven that they did, and then they just get taken even earlier the next time! (imagine my frustration, as one of the defacto “gatekeepers of the draft list”! )

I realize judgments vary, especially this far down in the draft, and I hope my opinion presented on the Sinisalo pick is not the only one you receive. I would like to know more, either about the rest of his game, and/or his international record, or whatever else, because as far as offense goes, I’m not seeing it. Like I said, I honestly feel like I am missing something because this is the second time he has gone a lot earlier than what it appears he should.

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Old
08-08-2012, 06:50 PM
  #280
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventieslord
LOL! Ok, but I just don’t have a better word to describe the behavior taking place when someone suddenly values Norris votes above all else and pretends all-star votes don’t exist, to suit an argument. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that is what you did there, from what I can see.
I value both. Either way, Gibbs' voting record doesn't stand out.

Quote:
You assumed, you mean. In 1972 the Stars had the 2nd-best GAA in the league. In 1973 they were 5th. In 1976 the Flames were 4th. In 1977 they were a goal better than the league average. That’s four of nine right there.

...
I take responsibility for this error, though. I clearly didn’t research this enough or do a good enough job demonstrating this to you before. These results surprised even me. I’m sure had you known this, you wouldn’t be chugging the choo-choo on the anti-Gibbs Train. (not sure where I got that from…)
Yes, you should have presented this data earlier. Gibbs has sort of become a poster child for the merits of using ice time as a proxy for talent, which is what the argument is about. The fact that his team's defense was very good some of the time he was their ice time leader is definitely worth noting.

1972 and 1973 are the two years he recorded a handful of all star votes and 1973 was his only All Star Game, so it seems he was recognized for his contributions.

Quote:
1970 (2nd worst) and 1979 (worst) were the only two times that fit your story. 1975 works both ways: 37 games for the Stars (2nd worst), 39 games for the Flames (5th-best)

1974 and 1978 are the other two. In both cases his teams were below average but not horrible.
This is the part of his career I find less impressive. No All Star votes, even from hometown writers. Most goals against of any skater in the league in 1974, 7th worst in 1978, 2nd worst in 1979. So he continued to see a ton of minutes during this part of career, but doesn't seem to be a difference maker in these seasons.

Quote:
Decent in his own zone against weak competition, maybe.

We’re talking about 42, 44, and 50 point seasons, good for 23rd, 15th and 7th in the NHL… big deal, seriously! If that came along with a more beefed up career (years as a top pairing defenseman, being relied on defensively, etc), great, but do you mean to tell me defensemen with three 40+ point seasons aren’t available? There are plenty, and they played full careers too. Some of them were better defensively too. Ehrhoff only looks attractive at all right now because of these fool’s gold Norris votes
Here is Ehrhoff's career:

2004, 2006, 2007: bottom pairing offensive specialist. Not historically noteworthy
2008: #2 defenseman on the 2nd best team in the league*
2009: #3/4 defenseman on the President's Trophy winner
2010: #1/2/3 defenseman on the 5th best team in the league**
2011: #2 defenseman on the President's Trophy winner
2012: #1 defenseman on an 18th place nonplayoff team

*he was #2/3 tweener after Campbell arrived but Campbell was only there 20 games
**1-3 were only separated by a few seconds


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-08-2012 at 06:56 PM.
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Old
08-08-2012, 07:10 PM
  #281
Zombie Mike Murphy
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The IceCaps select, to round out our third line

Micheal Nylander, C
Mike Knuble, RW


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08-08-2012, 07:12 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
The IceCaps select, to round out our third line

Micheal Nylander, C
Ziggy Palffy, RW
Palffy is long gone.

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Old
08-08-2012, 07:15 PM
  #283
Selfish Man
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I don’t know what the first part means, but there is no need to take anything personally.
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(imagine my frustration, as one of the defacto “gatekeepers of the draft list”! )
Yeah, I guess you wouldn't.

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08-08-2012, 07:16 PM
  #284
Zombie Mike Murphy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Palffy is long gone.
Oops, good catch. Repick incoming.

EDIT: I select Mike Knuble, RW

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Old
08-08-2012, 07:27 PM
  #285
TheDevilMadeMe
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Didn't Palffy used to slip to the MLD because he was soft and Euro and stuff? Ah the old days.

I have DaveG's list. He selects:

1 - G Gilles Meloche
2 - D Chris Phillips

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08-08-2012, 09:51 PM
  #286
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Who were your favorite picks in the draft?

Here are some of mine. I'm not including our own picks

Round 1: Brian Campbell, Billy Taylor, Zach Parise
Round 2: Dubbie Kerr, Bob Dailey
Round 3: Barry Pederson, Paul Shmyr, Nikolai Drozdetsky
Round 4: Slava Bykov
Round 5: Marian Stastny, Moose Watson
Round 6: Syl Apps, Jr, Fred Scanlan
Round 7: Nicklas Backstrom, Jiri Lala
Round 8: Normie Himes
Round 9: Ulf Dahlen, JS Giguere
Round 10: Ted Hampson, Don Lever, Marty Turco
Round 11: Lou Fontinato, Marty Burke, Grant Warwick
Round 12: Don Grosso, Patrik Sundstrom
Round 13: Murph Chamberlain, Mike Fisher
Round 14: Brent Seabrook, Billy McGimsie
Round 15: Larry Patey, Sergei Babinov, Slim Halderson, Tony Gringas

I'll probably post again at the end of the draft with my favorite picks from the double rounds

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08-08-2012, 10:09 PM
  #287
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Jim Roberts / Barry Gibbs

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

For Roberts to have TOI estimates in the 17 minute range in the 1972 and 1974 season there had to be some time spent on the blueline. It’s the only way he’d have been on the ice for so many more goals than the other checking forwards were.

1975 was almost certainly a year spent on defense too, considering the G:A ratio 5:13, estimated TOI (16 min) and shooting percentage (5.9% which was the lowest of his career except 1979 when he was clearly a D-man.)



If other defensemen were better then their coaches who want to win hockey games would have played them more than him, or at the very least, it would have been closer. He often led by 4+ minutes. And why would he get the all-star votes and they wouldn’t? Thank you votes from media? That’s conspiracy theory material.

Gibbs played the most minutes, he played them over some ATD-caliber players, and the teams were pretty good defensively as a result – sometimes near-elite. Why would the 1975 scouting report call him the team’s best all-around rearguard? Why would Cliff Fletcher say he had was one of the ten best defensemen in the league? Why did he make the All-star game over his defense mates?

Not enough credit is being given here.
Jim Roberts. Bowman had a creative way of double shifting based on game circumstances.You are assuming that Roberts was never double shifted as a defensive right winger, but he was replacing defensively unreliable young RWS like Guy Lafleur and Mario Tremblay during the 1972-75 period. Likewise Bowman would give him occasional dman shifts just to keep him game ready.

Barry Gibbs - named to the 1973 AS Game when it was an East / West event. West was mainly the weaker expansion division. Cliff Fletcher's comment. 1975 defensemen include Orr, Vadnais, Potvin, Lapointe, Robinson, Savard,Park, Salming,Turnbull, Burrows, White, Dick Redmond,Korab, Dailey, Greschner, Schoenfeld, Hajt, Dupont who were the competition that Gibbs faced for top 10. Doubt that he makes top 10.

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08-08-2012, 10:23 PM
  #288
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My favorites from the other teams:

Round 1: Tumba Johansson, Billy Reay, Andrei Khomutov
Round 2: Valery Kamensky, Steve Vickers, Dubbie Kerr
Round 3: Paul Shmyr, Kenny Jonsson, Pete Stemkowski
Round 4: Niklas Kronwall, Walt Buswell, Charlie Burns
Round 5: Mike Ricci, Doug Young, Moose Watson
Round 6: Tom Paton, Weldy Young, Craig Janney
Round 7: Don Maloney, Jocelyn Guevremont, Wally Hergesheimer
Round 8: Billy Breen, Normie Himes, Steve Payne
Round 9: Wayne Babych, Mike Ridley, Butch Keeling
Round 10: Wayne Merrick, Ted Hampson, Morris Lukowich
Round 11: Marty Burke, Joe Juneau, Don Smith
Round 12: P.J. Axelsson, Don Grosso, Kelly Kisio
Round 13: Brian Skrudland, Terry Crisp, Cliff Ronning
Round 14: Albert Langlois, Andre Pronovost, Bob MacMillan
Round 15: Slim Halderson, Jim Peplinski, Chico Maki

Rounds 6,8,11 were especially hard to only list three favorites!

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08-08-2012, 10:48 PM
  #289
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1 - Tumba Johansson, Ulf Nilsson, Howard McNamara
2 - Bill Thoms , Dubbie Kerr, Jeff Brown
3 - Paul Shmyr, Jimmy Ward, Pete Stemkowski
4 - Vyacheslav Bykov, Charlie Burns, Gus Bodnar
5 - Mike Ricci, Doug Young, Bill Brydge
6 - Doc Romnes, Fred Scanlan, Tony McKegny
7 - Paul Haynes, Claude Larose, Mike O'Connell
8 - Ed Sandford, Drew Doughty, Johnny Mowers
9 - Eddie Wiseman, Vincent Lukac, Terry Ruskowski
10 - Anders Kallur, Ted Hampson, Wayne Merrick
11 - Skene Ronan, Marty Burke, Grant Warwick
12 - Kelly Kisio, Jim Morrison, Danny Grant
13 - Terry Crisp, John Sorrell, not Barry Gibbs
14 - Billy McGimsie, Billy Harris, Bill Fairbairn (loved anybody named Bill, and these three picks a lot)
15 - Larry Patey, Slim Halderson, Steve Sullivan
16 - Charlie Sands, Michal Pivonka, Buzz Boll

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08-08-2012, 10:51 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Maybe this was answered last year and I forgot, but, do we have evidence he played LW? I have him just as a center.
I cannot remember, but I was looking at the MLD 2011 Draft Board and he was listed as C/LW. It will not be a problem because we have every intention to have Kindrachuk as our third line centre.

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08-08-2012, 10:56 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
1 - Tumba Johansson, Ulf Nilsson, Howard McNamara
2 - Bill Thoms , Dubbie Kerr, Jeff Brown
3 - Paul Shmyr, Jimmy Ward, Pete Stemkowski
4 - Vyacheslav Bykov, Charlie Burns, Gus Bodnar
5 - Mike Ricci, Doug Young, Bill Brydge
6 - Doc Romnes, Fred Scanlan, Tony McKegny
7 - Paul Haynes, Claude Larose, Mike O'Connell
8 - Ed Sandford, Drew Doughty, Johnny Mowers
9 - Eddie Wiseman, Vincent Lukac, Terry Ruskowski
10 - Anders Kallur, Ted Hampson, Wayne Merrick
11 - Skene Ronan, Marty Burke, Grant Warwick
12 - Kelly Kisio, Jim Morrison, Danny Grant
13 - Terry Crisp, John Sorrell, not Barry Gibbs
14 - Billy McGimsie, Billy Harris, Bill Fairbairn (loved anybody named Bill, and these three picks a lot)
15 - Larry Patey, Slim Halderson, Steve Sullivan
16 - Charlie Sands, Michal Pivonka, Buzz Boll
You must really like our team

I'm kind of sad that my two favortie picks - Paddy Moran and Billy Gilmour - aren't getting any move

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08-08-2012, 10:57 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think Ehrhoff’s current MLD placement is a perfect example of over-reliance on all-star and Norris voting (received from a tiny minority of voters, too) as a substitute for watching players, and taking advantage of more available stats, some of which aren’t even that advanced or complicated.
For the amount of respect you devote to Barry Gibbs, this is absolute hypocrisy. Ehrhoff is a much more well-rounded defenseman than you'd like to admit, I watch up to 30 Canuck games a year (living on the east coast is difficult lol), and I found he was a very complete defenseman, vastly improved from the one-dimensional defenseman he once was.

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08-08-2012, 10:59 PM
  #293
VanIslander
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Orest I thought was a C, but he did play some LW. Dunno if it's enough to list him at that position ideally.

Quote:
...he was a tenacious checker who was strong on both ends of the ice. A strong penalty killer, he was mostly a center but occasionally played as a left wing.
http://broadstreetbullies.blogspot.k...indrachuk.html

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08-08-2012, 11:19 PM
  #294
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
For the amount of respect you devote to Barry Gibbs, this is absolute hypocrisy. Ehrhoff is a much more well-rounded defenseman than you'd like to admit, I watch up to 30 Canuck games a year (living on the east coast is difficult lol), and I found he was a very complete defenseman, vastly improved from the one-dimensional defenseman he once was.
I mean, the voters tend to be biased towards more offensively inclined defensemen, so in one sense, he's right. But on the other hand, I don't know why Ehrhoff would be unique among post-expansion defensemen in that regards.

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08-08-2012, 11:21 PM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
With our 17th pick, 264th overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:



Buzz Boll, LW

Energetic two-way winger. Comfortable on a checking line but still has decent scoring touch.

- Not a large man, Boll was tenacious and conscientious at both ends of the ice.
- Finished 4th in goals per game and 8th in points per game during the weak 1942-43 campaign.
- Over the course of his career, he was 15th in total goals scored. All other players in the top-20 have been drafted.
- Has a peculiar playoff stat line. He was shut out in 22 of his 31 games. In the other 9, during the 1936 campaign, his team-leading 10 points took the Leafs to the Finals.
I had him penciled in to fill in as a top 6 glue guy at LW, now I need to find another option.

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08-08-2012, 11:28 PM
  #296
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I'm befuddled by the goaltending available to be quite honest...this guy has a good AS voting record, he played for the bad Canadiens teams but the press clippings from the time seem to regard him favorably...



Medicine Hat selects Wilf Cude, G

----------

My second pick...

Defensive/faceoff specialist that was so good at his job that he was elected to the Team Canada roster for the 1998 Olympics and two World Championships teams.



Medicine Hat selects Rob Zamuner, C/LW

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08-08-2012, 11:30 PM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Fair enough. But what two-way game?
Quote:
An exceptional skater, Sinisalo was an unheralded two way winger. He had great hockey sense and vision which made him a regular on both the power play and penalty kill. He was a good compliment to the immovable Tim Kerr on Flyers power plays. Sinisalo would use his one step quickness to get into passing lanes, often acting as a diversion while Kerr got into position in front of the net. He also possessed deadly wrist and backhand shots. On the penalty kill Sinisalo's speed and anticipation made him a regular. At regular strength Sinisalo was equally strong at both ends of the ice. He ranks high on the Flyers all time +/- leader list.
http://broadstreetbullies.blogspot.c...-sinisalo.html

Two 70 point seasons is decent for a bottom 6 winger. A career adjusted PPG of .586 is pretty good for a bottom 6 winger. Pelletier overstates his "regular penalty killing" a good bit, but it appears that he did a bit of it. Combine the fact that he was almost never healthy(never reached 80 games), I don't have a problem with the pick. Not including his last season where he played just 3 games and probably decided to just hang them up, he averaged only 57.9 games a season.

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08-08-2012, 11:37 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree, although I must begrudgingly point out that Nedved is clearly talented enough for a 2nd line spot in this league dynamic, and Hergesheimer is a clear top-6 type of player. Get them a glue guy at LW.

Christian is strong defensively and would make a nice complement to Stemmer on the left side. The defense you have right on, based on who he’s got, and who he could reasonably expect to pick from here on. Picard is a 3rd pairing specialist, Tverdovsky a spare.
You've basically nailed what I was planning on doing. Except for the Nedved part, I'm not at all a fan of his. Here's now it looks right now:

_____-McGimsie-Hergesheimer
Mickoski-Reay-Stoughton
_____-Stemkowski-Christian
_____-______-_____
Nedved

Cooper-Hillman
Babinov-McKenny
Picard-_____
Tverdovsky, Moran

Ranford

Do you know something about Amby Moran that I don't? He looks like garbage to me. An uneventful career in the NHL, and maybe three relevant seasons in the WCHL? What was his competition like the WCHL? Bullet Joe Simpson is the only other defenseman I know of from that league. In the time they were in the league together, Simpson had 99 points in 113 games(.876PPG) and Moran had 45 points in 88 games(.511PPG). Is that it?

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08-08-2012, 11:40 PM
  #299
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I like the Cude pick. Not the greatest longevity, but I'm pretty sure he and Don Edwards are the only two-time Postseason All Stars around.

Zamuner is pretty good too.

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08-08-2012, 11:46 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post

Do you know something about Amby Moran that I don't? He looks like garbage to me. An uneventful career in the NHL, and maybe three relevant seasons in the WCHL? What was his competition like the WCHL? Bullet Joe Simpson is the only other defenseman I know of from that league. In the time they were in the league together, Simpson had 99 points in 113 games(.876PPG) and Moran had 45 points in 88 games(.511PPG). Is that it?
Here are the WCHL All Star Defensemen

1921-22
1st Team
Red Dutton, D
Joe Simpson, D
2nd Team
Bob Trapp, D
Percy Traub, D

1922-23
1st Team
Herb Gardiner, D
Bob Trapp, D (spare)
Joe Simpson, D
2nd Team
Percy Traub, D

1923-24
1st Team
Red Dutton, D
Percy Traub, D
2nd Team
Joe Simpson, D

1924-25
1st Team
Herb Gardiner D
Joe Simpson D

1925-26
1st Team
Eddie Shore D
Bob Trapp D

The case for Moran seems to be a single hometown newspaper article that Iain found, calling him as good or almost as good defensively as Herb Gardiner, which I found pretty weak.

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