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45 candidates for Toronto's top line centre position...

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Old
08-08-2012, 05:50 PM
  #251
parineum
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I don't understand the concept that the Kings would trade one of Kopitar, Richards or Carter at all.

The Kings have some prospect wingers who, should they push for a spot, might bump someone out of the top 6. Carter can play 3C/PP/PK and then your question is what to do with Stoll.

Stoll has value, can play wing, and is on a good contract. It's a problem with a lot of viable solutions.

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08-08-2012, 05:53 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Spezza is in the "Unlikely" Really? Just the "Unlikely"..? Believe me, if we were to trade him to Toronto, it would start with...errr....uhhh... Who do you guys have that we need? I'm being serious. If we trade Spezza, our biggest need becomes first line center and Leafs have no inciting anything to make us rely on Zibanejad and Turris.

Also, LOL! Why the hell would we want Kadri. He'd be our 3rd/4th best center.
So all that talk from your fanbase about Zibanejad and Turris becoming stars was just smoke and mirrors?

And if you're reluctant to rely on either of those players as a #1C, what makes you think Kadri would be the 3rd or 4th best center on Ottawa? Typical biased sens fan.

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08-08-2012, 06:00 PM
  #253
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So all that talk from your fanbase about Zibanejad and Turris becoming stars was just smoke and mirrors?

And if you're reluctant to rely on either of those players as a #1C, what makes you think Kadri would be the 3rd or 4th best center on Ottawa? Typical biased sens fan.
not smoke and mirrors at all. They are still young players not ready to make Spezza trade bait. Also i doubt either of those players with ever match Spezza, if they do great , but players like Spezza are rare. I think most sens fans see Turris as a good 2nd line centre which is very valuable to any team, and Zibanejad is seen more as a winger at this level. Both can become amazing players , great contributors to our team without ever reaching top ten scoring like Spezza has.

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08-08-2012, 06:02 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by leafs8181 View Post
The point was that is if the Kings are going to have 2 guys with 8 and 10 years contracts on their team, those should be players that the team is built around. Kings fans seem to think if those guys had stayed in Philly they would have won something. So I don't see why they wouldn't do it and upgrade other positions if they were so confident in those players, since Kopitar will be gone in 4 years anyway.
As a Ducks fan, i'd love for them to trade Kopitar away for m. Richards and Carter. He's a much better player and when he's playing well the Kings are noticeably a much better team. There's no way that what comes back in a trade for him or for m. Richards and Carter would be able to replace what he does. They'd be limiting their chances to winning a cup by downgrading at the first line center position and the second line because m. Richards is better than Carter. Their number one center wouldn't stack up against the others of the pacific, Benn, Thornton and Getzlaf anymore. Again, i'd love for that to happen but i don't see Lombardi doing that.

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08-08-2012, 06:11 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by parineum View Post
I don't understand the concept that the Kings would trade one of Kopitar, Richards or Carter at all.

The Kings have some prospect wingers who, should they push for a spot, might bump someone out of the top 6. Carter can play 3C/PP/PK and then your question is what to do with Stoll.

Stoll has value, can play wing, and is on a good contract. It's a problem with a lot of viable solutions.
Carter won't be producing at a high level if he's the #3 center. Not enough ice time unless you want to take ice time away from Kopitar and Richards, but why would that make sense? Kopitar's clearly better and Richards to me is a much better player as well.

And the concept was that not only will the Kings not want to give out another long term deal (since they already have Quick, Carter, Richards and Doughty on those), that he'd most likely be gone in 4 years -- that's if the cap doesn't drop $10 million with no salary relief (not probably, but very possible). Factoring in Quick's increase and Brown's soon to be increase (he's on a great deal and will most definitely get a raise), unless they want to gut their team of depth, one of their centers would have to be moved.

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08-08-2012, 06:23 PM
  #256
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I highly highly highly highly highly think Getzlaf ends up going there since Carlyle is their coach.

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08-08-2012, 06:44 PM
  #257
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Leafs don't need a #1 center...that's why they signed Tim Connolly last year

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08-08-2012, 06:58 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by leafs8181 View Post
Carter won't be producing at a high level if he's the #3 center. Not enough ice time unless you want to take ice time away from Kopitar and Richards, but why would that make sense? Kopitar's clearly better and Richards to me is a much better player as well.

And the concept was that not only will the Kings not want to give out another long term deal (since they already have Quick, Carter, Richards and Doughty on those), that he'd most likely be gone in 4 years -- that's if the cap doesn't drop $10 million with no salary relief (not probably, but very possible). Factoring in Quick's increase and Brown's soon to be increase (he's on a great deal and will most definitely get a raise), unless they want to gut their team of depth, one of their centers would have to be moved.

In order...

Why not?

If salary drops 10m there are wingers that are movable that mean a lot less to the team than any of Kopitar, Richards or Carter.

Quick and Brown's raises will be accounted for by Penner and Gagne's salaries and the Kings would still be under the current 70m cap. In addition, Brown's current contract was a discount when he signed it and, I suspect his next contract will, while still being a healthy raise, will also be very friendly. Should there be a cap rollback without a salary they might be in some trouble but so will everybody else. That situation is highly unlikely.

Moving any of their top 9 would be bad for their depth, including Carter, Richards and Kopitar. However, those three are, by far, their most important forwards and those three plus Brown will be the last forwards moved for cap space. If the move is for cap space, the return value isn't as important as the return so moving a different player with a similar hit (Stoll, Williams, Penner, Gagne) is doable.

You seem to think that moving Kopitar wouldn't be disastrous to the Kings' depth when, if you make a lineup without him, you'll see it is a HUGE problem. Philly was ok with Richards/Carter/Briere because Briere is significantly better than Stoll. Richards/Carter/Stoll is not anywhere close to as good.

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08-08-2012, 07:33 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by parineum View Post
In order...

Why not?
When's the last time a team had that many players stay together for that long? Not 6 players that's for sure. Teams need turnovers eventually. They need to get younger. You don't lock up that many players for the rest of their careers, especially 3 that play the same position. Eventually you ID the core members, you lock them up the longest and get younger elsewhere.
+ There's the major fact that Carter is a CENTER, not winger and he's better at center than wing. If he's moved to center, the King's wing depth looks like this: Brown, Williams, Gagne, Penner, King, Clifford, etc. So, an injury waiting to happen in Gagne, an underperforming Penner, and a couple of forwards who aren't top 6 forwards? I mean, the best wingers Kopitar's played with are who, Brown and Frolov? That's stretching it thin with Kopitar/Richards/Carter down the middle.

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If salary drops 10m there are wingers that are movable that mean a lot less to the team than any of Kopitar, Richards or Carter.
Quick and Brown's raises will be accounted for by Penner and Gagne's salaries and the Kings would still be under the current 70m cap. In addition, Brown's current contract was a discount when he signed it and, I suspect his next contract will, while still being a healthy raise, will also be very friendly. Should there be a cap rollback without a salary they might be in some trouble but so will everybody else. That situation is highly unlikely.
Except for the cap dropping by $10 million would make it ~$60 million, not $70 million. Which would mean they would have to decide if they want to take the Chicago Blackhawk root and keep their stars or decide to keep their depth and deal one of those stars to do so.
The Blackhawks had Toews, Kane, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook and Hossa all under contract with big contracts. It killed their depth. The Kings really aren't far away from that after Quick's contract kicks in and Brown gets his raise.

Is it likely to happen? No. Could it happen? Yes.

Quote:
Moving any of their top 9 would be bad for their depth, including Carter, Richards and Kopitar. However, those three are, by far, their most important forwards and those three plus Brown will be the last forwards moved for cap space. If the move is for cap space, the return value isn't as important as the return so moving a different player with a similar hit (Stoll, Williams, Penner, Gagne) is doable.
Isn't that similar thinking to what the Blackhawks thought? Losing guys like Ladd and Campbell wasn't supposed to hurt them that badly. It did. Losing one of Kopitar/Richards/Carter won't hurt the Kings, as long as they chose the right guy to trade. To me, most definitely one of those players will end up either being traded or not re-signed.

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You seem to think that moving Kopitar wouldn't be disastrous to the Kings' depth when, if you make a lineup without him, you'll see it is a HUGE problem. Philly was ok with Richards/Carter/Briere because Briere is significantly better than Stoll. Richards/Carter/Stoll is not anywhere close to as good.
Well, obviously. But if everyone wants to get a picture of Richards and Carter with the cup and act like Holmgren made a terrible decision, then I don't see why they wouldn't want those same players that they have so much faith, to take over their team.

Obviously Briere>Stoll. But it's not like they don't have Loktionov or others. The Kings have plenty of center depth.

The fact is that the "building blocks" of the Kings are Quick, Doughty, Richards and Carter. To me, contracts dictate that just as much as anything else.


Last edited by leafs8181*: 08-08-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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08-08-2012, 07:44 PM
  #260
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Leaf fans, I think you have your team already (besides possibly a goalie)......................
Theres a reason why your front office came out and said JVR will be used at center..... HE WILL BE

Dont worry you will have a better team to cheer for in a couple of seasons

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08-08-2012, 08:05 PM
  #261
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Leaf fans, I think you have your team already (besides possibly a goalie)......................
Theres a reason why your front office came out and said JVR will be used at center..... HE WILL BE

Dont worry you will have a better team to cheer for in a couple of seasons
Well I don't think he'll be a good center. That will be a terrible defensive line as JVR, while he tries, isn't good defensively. I'd much rather him play wing. I could be wrong though, but I don't see that working out. If I had to bet, I'd say that by a few weeks into the season (if it takes that long), Bozak will be centering Kessel and Lupul. I'm not a huge Bozak fan but he does have chemistry with them. Despite that, I don't think they'll win if he is. He doesn't measure up against any of the #1 centers to win the cup since the lock out.

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08-08-2012, 08:41 PM
  #262
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where did this cap drop by 10 million business start from? does anyone have a link to any information regarding this, where the cap drops without a salary decrease from players , or even with one? Or is it just a random number someone pulled out of thin air?

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08-08-2012, 08:49 PM
  #263
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where did this cap drop by 10 million business start from? does anyone have a link to any information regarding this, where the cap drops without a salary decrease from players , or even with one? Or is it just a random number someone pulled out of thin air?
From the NHL CBA proposal or at least that's what I keep reading. That's what they want, doubt they get it. But nothing's impossible.

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08-09-2012, 12:27 AM
  #264
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Have you looked at the Kings cap numbers?
They are over 7 mil under right now. Gagne and Penner both come off next year. They have set themselves up for dips in the cap.

You are seriously barking up the wrong tree and as another Kings fan pointed out, you are like a used car salesman.
If push comes to shove, the Kings would trade Carter or Richards before Kopitar <-----learn this...know this...live this
lol and you trade one of Carter/Richards the other one could potentially be negatively effected. Plus, who'd want Carter after what he did to Columbus? They don't have Richards on their team like the Kings did. He may be a good player, but he's still the last guy I'd count on to be my teams #2 center, let alone #1 center.

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08-09-2012, 01:35 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by VaporTrail View Post
Leafs don't need a #1 center...that's why they signed Tim Connolly last year

We don't need a #1 center because just last year we finished 10th in Goals For/ Goals per game.

Scoring isn't an issue and we added more offense this offseason with JVR. We need consistent goaltending and another defender that can shutdown/block *****/play physical.


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08-09-2012, 01:53 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by sens613 View Post
where did this cap drop by 10 million business start from? does anyone have a link to any information regarding this, where the cap drops without a salary decrease from players , or even with one? Or is it just a random number someone pulled out of thin air?
Its not as if they'd implement it in September or midseason anyways.

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08-09-2012, 01:55 AM
  #267
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We don't need a #1 center because just last year we finished 10th in Goals For/ Goals per game.

Scoring isn't an issue and we added more offense this offseason with JVR.
We need consistent goaltending and another defender that can shutdown/block *****/play physical.
Under Wilson's no D system yes. Under Carlye they'll have less chances to work with.


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08-09-2012, 01:57 AM
  #268
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Under Wilson's no D system yes. Under Carlye they'll have less chances to work with.

We'll also have (hopefully) less GA.

So it balances out. And if anything, scoring from the third line would help that issue way more then a #1C.


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08-09-2012, 01:59 AM
  #269
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We'll also have (hopefully) less GA.

So it balances out. And if anything, scoring from the third line would help that issue way more then a #1C.
Why do the other 29 teams need a #1 center but we don't?

It's not our greatest need but it's up there.


Last edited by Fel 96: 08-09-2012 at 05:09 AM.
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08-09-2012, 02:05 AM
  #270
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I highly highly highly highly highly think Getzlaf ends up going there since Carlyle is their coach.
Didnt the players pretty much hate Carlyle ? Atleast i heard stories of Ryan and Perry disliking him, and Selšnne openly critizised him several times..

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08-09-2012, 02:05 AM
  #271
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Why do the other 29 teams need a #1 center but we don't?

It's not our greatest need but it's up there.
29 other teams don't have 1C's. Boston doesn't have a defacto 1C, niether does Florida, Colorado, etc. 1B's are just as fine. People just like to think that hockey is like basketball and 1 player can fix things. A lot of teams that make the Finals have scoring through all 3 (sometimes 4) lines. A #1 center isn't going to make Lupul and Kessel's point totals go up 20 points and turn them into playoff behemoths. However getting 15-20 extra points from two members of the third line is completely plausible.

In the year Chicago won the cup, Toews had 68 points.

In the year Boston won the cup, Krejci had 62. Hell LA won the cup and Kopitar had 76 points on the season, the 2C in their line up had 44 points.

It's not that big of a deal. We have other spots we can address to make us a better team. Most notably: a top goaltender.


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08-09-2012, 02:41 AM
  #272
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Pavelski, Brassard, Johansen, Legwand, Schenn, Couturier, Vermette, Hanzal, Wilson, Weiss, Lecavlier, Oshie, and Ladd.

I would take Zajac before all of these players based on current hockey skill alone but of course when you factor in age, cap hit, etc. its a different story.
Yeah...factoring in age (Pavs is 1 year older), cap hit (500k less), defense (Pavs is better), faceoffs (Pavs again), overall game (Pavs) no clue how you ended up on with that.

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08-09-2012, 04:20 AM
  #273
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Well, obviously. But if everyone wants to get a picture of Richards and Carter with the cup and act like Holmgren made a terrible decision, then I don't see why they wouldn't want those same players that they have so much faith, to take over their team.

The fact is that the "building blocks" of the Kings are Quick, Doughty, Richards and Carter. To me, contracts dictate that just as much as anything else.
The first point- People love watching the misery of others and people have to find the winner of a trade NOW. Both the Richards and Carter moves were made with Philly looking long term. Those deals can still work out extremely well for the Flyers. I also think some people feel that Richards and Carter got a bit of a raw deal, signing long term cap friendly deals and then moved before NTC/NMC clauses kicked in. But with the Kings going out and reuniting Carter with Richards and then winning, something the Flyers didn't do with them, people enjoy watching the Flyers squirm a bit.

If you look at the deals Philly made and realize they were made for the long term, there's still plenty of time for the trade to be a win now for LA and a win for Philly down the road.

As for the 2nd point, I think had Lombardi been the one to sign Kopitar, Richards, and Carter to all 3 contracts, you might be able to read something into Richards and Carter being signed for a longer term. Lombardi was willing to trade for Richards, knowing the length of his contract, because he had been looking for awhile to find a 2nd line center to take some of the pressure off of Kopitar. Lombardi traded for Carter, long term contract and all, because they needed scoring bad, Carter was available, and less expensive than other wing options. It probably was a bit of a panic move because Lombardi's job would have been in jeopardy had they missed the playoffs. It wasn't some master plan to make Kopitar expendable.

If anything, if you want to read into the way Lombardi thinks, he took a pretty large gamble when he signed Kopitar to his current contract. Lombardi was willing to give a player in his rookie contract a contract for 7 years and almost $50 million dollars. That right there ought to show that Lombardi was committed to Kopitar years ago.

One more thing about Carter....he didn't treat Columbus well. There's no denying that. Maybe had Carter spent more time in Columbus, he would have stopped pouting and adjusted and made the best out of a situation where he didn't want to be. Columbus saw something that wasn't working for them and decided to trade him. Those things said, the Kings have Lombardi, Hextall, Stevens, had Terry Murray, plus Richards and Gagne, all former Flyers in their organization. If any organization other than the Flyers would know Jeff Carter well, it would be the Kings. Other organizations might have questions about him but obviously with what the Kings should have known before trading for Carter, they were comfortable with it.


Last edited by danaluvsthekings: 08-09-2012 at 04:33 AM.
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08-09-2012, 04:48 AM
  #274
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Vincent Lecavalier (Tampa Bay) - Once a dominant player in the NHL, now he's a #2 centre in Tampa and struggles to stay healthy. If he was on a cap hit near $6M for 3-4 more years, Lecavalier would have value on the market. But at $7.7M until July 1st, 2020, he has negative value and will not be traded barring a miraculous comeback.
Not a #1 center, and hell no to that contract.
Lecavalier to Toronto will arguably never happen (for $ reasons, his NMC, and so on) but nontheless, that statement is just false.

On the Lightning he's not the #1 center. On the Leafs (and several other teams in the league) he would certainly be the #1 center, don't kid yourself. He scored at least 20 goals and 50+ points while missing 20+ games over the last two seasons - prorated to 82 games he'd be at 30 goals and 65 points. And that's while playing hurt and with inferior linemates as Stamkos is obviously the go-to guy in Tampa now.

Give him #1C ice time with Kessel and JVR/Lupul/whomsoever on his wings and time with the 1st PP unit and he should put up at least 70+ points. Let alone when he's not playing 10-20 games obviously hurt.

He had bad luck with injuries (wrist, hand, shoulder) but he had surgery again and feels 100 per cent. And he's certainly an upgrade over Bozak, JVR or Grabovski at center. Not to mention his qualities as leader, mentor and role model (Cup winner, long-time NHL captain, almost 1,000 NHL regular season games played).


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08-09-2012, 05:27 AM
  #275
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Weiss said he would like to retire a Panther, so he's gonna resign for sure. And he would be a major upgrade over Bozak. Weiss is so underrated, he does so much more than just putting up points. He makes all the players around him better, and is so good in all aspects of the game.

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