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Stanley Cup if There's a Lockout

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Old
07-19-2012, 03:14 PM
  #26
No Fun Shogun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
I doubt that hockey would qualify as an essential service... although that would be nice since it would certainly speed things up!
Maybe they could make an argument that the NHL's the only thing keeping Canadian rage in check and preventing an invasion of Greenland?

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07-19-2012, 08:36 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
I doubt that hockey would qualify as an essential service... although that would be nice since it would certainly speed things up!
Hockey wouldn't need to be declared an essential service. If Ottawa were intent to putting an end to a players strike, they would likely follow the same path as they did for the multiple Air Canada unions. First, Labour Minister Lisa Raitt would ask the CIRB to determine if the NHL would qualify as an essential service, thus suspending the right to strike until that ruling comes down. Second and during that delay, the government would prepare and pass back-to-work legislation, thereby forcing players back on the rinks while a new collective agreement would be decided in arbitration by a government selected arbitrator.

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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Maybe they could make an argument that the NHL's the only thing keeping Canadian rage in check and preventing an invasion of Greenland?
We sort of did. Denmark and Canada have been having a diplomatic spat over a small island in the Arctic since the early 1970's. Over the past 30-40 years, many military "exercises" have been done in or around the island on both sides. Both countries have also planted their flags on the island.

A new agreement negotiated earlier this year would see each country get half of the Island. If it gets ratified, Canada will technically have a land border with Denmark.

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07-19-2012, 08:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Are NHL players even allowed to play in the AHL during a lockout?

Does anyone remember if they were last time?
Yeah a number of them did. Some of the Oilers even played for the Roadrunners that year (same ownership same building).

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07-19-2012, 09:34 PM
  #29
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We aren't gonna lose the season, so it's a moot point. This lockout will be very minor compared to 05. Season will start on New Year's Day.

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07-20-2012, 01:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
We aren't gonna lose the season, so it's a moot point. This lockout will be very minor compared to 05. Season will start on New Year's Day.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I'm not. The tone of things isn't that good.

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07-20-2012, 02:54 AM
  #31
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That would be bizarre to see AHLers or CHLers skating around with the Stanley Cup.

Better than nothing I guess.

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07-20-2012, 03:31 AM
  #32
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What if the cup is given to some pro league and then nhl players try to play with this team to get a shot at the cup..? that'd be hilarious

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07-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #33
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With all these Russian guys going back to the KHL, maybe the Cup will be played there?

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07-20-2012, 10:15 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by La Vieille Garde View Post
With all these Russian guys going back to the KHL, maybe the Cup will be played there?
Didn't more players go to the SEL?

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Old
07-20-2012, 11:44 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
We sort of did. Denmark and Canada have been having a diplomatic spat over a small island in the Arctic since the early 1970's. Over the past 30-40 years, many military "exercises" have been done in or around the island on both sides. Both countries have also planted their flags on the island.

A new agreement negotiated earlier this year would see each country get half of the Island. If it gets ratified, Canada will technically have a land border with Denmark.
I did know that, actually. Also knew that that could've been avoided entirely, or at least made it a U.S.-Canadian affair, as we tried to buy Greenland from Denmark back in the Cold War, but they weren't interested.

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07-20-2012, 12:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I'm not. The tone of things isn't that good.
Compared with 2004, the tone is an absolute love fest.

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07-20-2012, 12:38 PM
  #37
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I thought the Cup should have been competed for during the last lockout and if there happens to be a lockout this year, I hope they award it to a team deserving.

I would love to see a makeshift tournament put together in Europe with all the Champion club teams from the top leagues and I think the AHL should be allowed to get in on that as well. Perhaps the finals could be a best of 3 series that takes place in Toronto between the remaining 2 clubs. I think it would be a crazy thing to happen to the history of hockey and hopefully dissuade future lockouts from happening.

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Old
07-20-2012, 01:23 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I did know that, actually. Also knew that that could've been avoided entirely, or at least made it a U.S.-Canadian affair, as we tried to buy Greenland from Denmark back in the Cold War, but they weren't interested.
Really? In hindsight, with all the oil and gas in the arctic, Denmark probably made the right decision.

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07-20-2012, 01:31 PM
  #39
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Really? In hindsight, with all the oil and gas in the arctic, Denmark probably made the right decision.
Absolutely, ask Russia if they want Alaska back.

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Old
08-09-2012, 04:36 PM
  #40
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http://jeremydebeer.ca/images/Stanle...udy%20Scan.pdf

It's a bit of a long read; but, it does talk about the 2005 lawsuit and shows that an out of court settlement was reached, the complete details of which have not been released.

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08-09-2012, 06:28 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tko78 View Post
http://jeremydebeer.ca/images/Stanle...udy%20Scan.pdf

It's a bit of a long read; but, it does talk about the 2005 lawsuit and shows that an out of court settlement was reached, the complete details of which have not been released.
Very interesting read, thanks. The last part of it can be skipped, as it just discusses the usefulness of examining the Cup's status as a law school case study. But the first part clarifies some important points.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand the article the situation surrounding the cup's ownership can be described thus:

1. Trusts cannot be granted in perpetuity (or at least could not by the law at the time of the Cup's grant; the article explains the nuances in more detail.) So Lord Stanley may not have been legally able to place the Cup in the hands of the trustees to be administered as a permanent, perpetual reward to hockey's champions.

2. There is an exception to point 1 if the trust is for charitable purposes; however, there's an 1895 English court decision that seems to set a precedent that sporting trophies do not qualify as "charitable." There may also be an exception if the trust is granted by the Crown, as it may have been.

3. So the original gift may not be valid. That would leave the ownership either in the hands of Lord Stanley's heir (currently Frederick Stanley, the Earl of Derby) or the Crown, depending on whether or not the Cup was bought by Lord Stanley personally or in the course of his duties as Governor-General (probably the latter, as there's apparently evidence public funds were used.)

4. If the original gift was somehow legally valid, the Cup itself is still not the NHL's property; the 1947 agreement transferring control of the Cup from its trustees was almost certainly invalid. In that case, the trustees breached their duties and the appropriate authority over the cup may rest with Ontario's Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee.

5. There's a long section about the NHL's trademarks vis-a-vis the Cup; however, it's a bit beyond my understanding and the author appears to take a significant leap of logic and diverts into a discussion of cultural misappropriation and the Cup's status as a "Canadian artifact." That's unfortunate, because the trademarks seem to be the strongest legal leg the NHL has to stand on, and the practical implications of that aren't really examined.

(Edit: I should add the the trademark situation is particularly relevant because what's handed out today is not the original Cup, but a duplicate purchased by the NHL. If they own that, and their Stanley Cup trademarks hold up in court, it seems to me that they may be on pretty solid ground to hand out their trophy and call it the Stanley Cup.)

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08-09-2012, 08:36 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
Very interesting read, thanks. The last part of it can be skipped, as it just discusses the usefulness of examining the Cup's status as a law school case study. But the first part clarifies some important points.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand the article the situation surrounding the cup's ownership can be described thus:...
That's a pretty effecient summary.

I am a lawyer, although not one who deals with matters like this normally.

The interesting part of it all, in my little, rodent-like lawyer brain is this: the NHL was scared enough to settle out of court instead of just having the matter tried on its merits and decided with some finality AND, maybe more importantly, because the matter is still undecided, there is absolutely nothing stopping a similar suit from being filed again (and again and again if there are a series of out of court settlements).

How many legal challenges is the NHL willing to settle out before risking it all and taking the matter to trial?

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08-10-2012, 09:32 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I doubt that the CHL would be the ones to play for it, they've already got the Memorial Cup. Same goes for the AHL as well with the Calder Cup, though if I had to guess the AHL would be given first crack at it before the CHL.

.... who knows who, if anyone, would play for it?
My Men's league team is three lines deep. we'll take a shot at it.

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08-10-2012, 12:31 PM
  #44
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Why not have a world tournament? Possibly exclude the KHL, but top teams from the AHL, SEL, NLA, SM-liiga, DEL, Austria, Czech & Slovak.

Basically it'd be the European Trophy tournament (replace KHL w/ AHL) teams to vie for the Stanley Cup. That would be pretty cool.

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08-10-2012, 12:34 PM
  #45
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The trustees will never allow a European team to play for the Cup, just for the simple reason that they don't have to.

It's pretty clear that the NHL/North American hockey has some sort of rivalry with Europe. Why allow them to play for it if they don't have to?

The only league I see playing for it is a Canadian league, such as the CHL.

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08-10-2012, 01:05 PM
  #46
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Old
08-10-2012, 01:22 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
The trustees will never allow a European team to play for the Cup, just for the simple reason that they don't have to.

It's pretty clear that the NHL/North American hockey has some sort of rivalry with Europe. Why allow them to play for it if they don't have to?

The only league I see playing for it is a Canadian league, such as the CHL.
They have said that they would only award it to a team that they felt was the best in the world, so I can't see the CHL getting a look.

If it happened, I'd guess that the Calder Cup would take a season off and the AHL would play for Lord Stanley's hardware. But I'd love Euro teams to compete for it.

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08-10-2012, 04:59 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
The trustees will never allow a European team to play for the Cup, just for the simple reason that they don't have to.

It's pretty clear that the NHL/North American hockey has some sort of rivalry with Europe. Why allow them to play for it if they don't have to?

The only league I see playing for it is a Canadian league, such as the CHL.
Being a lawyer, I get itchy when you write that the trustees don't "have to" do something. I doubt the KHL (not being from the Dominion to start with) could play for it, but these trustees are obliged to follow a whole bunch of principles and fidutiary duties to ensure that Lord Stanley's intent with the trust is met. It's of course impossible to argue that putting the Cup away for a year in that sense is the best option if indeed a team did put in a challenge for the cup.

NHLs agreement with the trust is also doubtful, I would guess. It just ties the hands of the trustees to much, and I doubt such agreement is valid to be honest if tested under certain circumstances...

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08-10-2012, 05:05 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
They have said that they would only award it to a team that they felt was the best in the world, so I can't see the CHL getting a look.

If it happened, I'd guess that the Calder Cup would take a season off and the AHL would play for Lord Stanley's hardware. But I'd love Euro teams to compete for it.
Maybe they have some wiggle room if a beer league team challenged for the Cup, but doesn't the conditions pretty clearly say that the best team wanting it should get it???

Correct me if I am wrong...

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08-10-2012, 05:29 PM
  #50
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The cup was essentially misappropriated by the NHL in the 1920's. Of course now it has been in NHL hands for so long that it would be extremely difficult to legally challenge for it. The league controls it. The current trustees are former employees of the NHL and they will appoint new trustees when they move on.

The rules written in 1947 regarding a cup challenge are quite simple. In order for a team to issue a cup challenge they would have to be considered on par with an NHL team. A CHL team would not meet that standard and neither would an AHL at this time. However if the NHLPA set up teams of NHL players during the lockout and played a reasonable schedule they would definitely meet that standard.

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