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Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season II

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Old
08-08-2012, 09:46 PM
  #876
drbob
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OT: Nash to Rangers means...

they will be the faves to come out of the East,

to play the Kings in the Cup Finals, hopefully,

and they got him without having to give up any of their core players.

Looks like we stand pat, which isn't bad.

Any way to get Simmonds back? Sure would like that...

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Old
08-08-2012, 11:24 PM
  #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Flyers and Kings made another trade. The Flyers lost Meszaros for at least half the season because of the achilles tear, Timonen is coming off back surgery (Homer says he's fine but he said the same about Mez), Carle is gone, Grossmann and Coburn are about as good as it gets for the rest of them. I wonder if they would take Scuderi and return something good? I think he's in his final year so it would help both before Mez is ready and after he returns.
I just don't know what the Flyers would move for Scuderi.

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Old
08-09-2012, 02:05 PM
  #878
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With many teams looking to strenghten thier defense Dean should be able to get a
pick/prospect for either DD or Muzzin rather than just lose them to waivers
( neither should get by Columbus / Edmonton ) .

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:34 PM
  #879
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=402741

Quote:
National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman told reporters on Thursday that the NHL will lock out its players if there is no new collective bargaining agreement by the time the old agreement expires on Sept. 15.

"We reiterated to the union that the owners will not play another year under the current agreement,"
he told a scrum of reporters in New York after the latest talks.

Reports indicate that NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr, who just returned from a player information session overseas, is expected to make a counter-proposal on Tuesday.

The owners' July 13 proposal reportedly asked for a decrease of hockey-related revenue the players currently receive to 46 percent - down from 57 percent.

League revenues reached $3.3 billion last season.

If there is another lockout next month, it would be the third since Bettman arrived as NHL commissioner in 1993. The 1994-95 lockout shortened the season to a 48-game schedule and the 2004-05 lockout cancelled the entire campaign.
I'm not optimistic.

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:53 PM
  #880
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^Yikes!

I guess i'll have Runnin' Rebel basketball to hold me over until who knows when.

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08-09-2012, 05:20 PM
  #881
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Of course the owners are going to lock out the players without a contract. It is their only leverage to get a deal done. Did everyone forget that Fehr had baseball players go on strike just before the World Series?

Fehr is completely ************ when he says the players want to play the season without an agreement. They would just go on strike before the playoffs and screw the owners and fans. No thanks.

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:32 PM
  #882
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I hate how it's always the owners that come out looking like the bad guy sand never the players.

Of course if the deal sucks for the owners they are going to be the ones saying no no no we can't play another year under this, while the players will be out in the media saying "We just want to play...."

Of course they are going to want to play and just look like the good guys when the deal is incredibly favorable for them.

But nonetheless this really changes nothing. They are still making some REALLY good strides in the last couple meetings, and they will likely get it done RIGHT before the start of the season.

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:51 PM
  #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I hate how it's always the owners that come out looking like the bad guy sand never the players.

Of course if the deal sucks for the owners they are going to be the ones saying no no no we can't play another year under this, while the players will be out in the media saying "We just want to play...."

Of course they are going to want to play and just look like the good guys when the deal is incredibly favorable for them.

But nonetheless this really changes nothing. They are still making some REALLY good strides in the last couple meetings, and they will likely get it done RIGHT before the start of the season.
Are you kidding me? Did you not pay attention to the last lockout? Nobody was siding with the players and we all were aware of how stubborn and foolish Bob Goodenow was in his refusal to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement that contained a salary cap.

This time, it is on the owners because they got the agreement they wanted, everyone said the owners won in the last round, then this year we see ridiculous contracts handed out to free agents and a crazy offer sheet from a big market team that was eventually matched by the much smaller market team, and somehow if the owners decide to lock the players out this time, it's the players' fault again?

Are they holding a gun to the heads of these owners and forcing them to pay their salaries? Of course not, the owners are setting the market value for them and they are being paid accordingly. The revenue sharing system is broken and that is what needs to be fixed, and the league is taking it out of the players' share to fix it.

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:03 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Wow! I don't know which statement I find more mindblowing:

Syd25's statement about Hickey being worth a late round pick at best or Holden's statement that Muzzin will clear waivers with ease.

Safe to say, I disagree with both of you strongly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I don't think Muzzin will clear waivers at all, I hope that you are right and I am wrong.

Westgarth and Richardson could both go down or out and we would still be as solid. Richardsons speed would be missed but it could be picked back up for the playoffs by adding in Kozun or another player at the time.

DL won't let anything happen to DD44 until his contract runs out so I am worried about Hickey Muzzin and even Clifford to a certain extent. I am confident that DL has a plan for how to handle this but even my best guesses have us losing a solid prospect.

It will be an interesting time.

I do agree that Hickey would make a very solid spare D man for us and that he and Muzzin should be prepared by us to step in after this coming season.
Every year we hear about how there is no way such and such player will clear waivers. Then he does and everybody is shocked. We all like Muzzin and I am sure many teams would like to have him as a prospect, I am not certain that there is going to be many teams lining up to commit a roster spot on him over one of their prospects at the start of the year, guys that they know inside and out and have developed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Muzzin would clear.

I do agree that I hope Hickey and Muzzin battle it out for spot #7, both have proven that there is little more they can learn in the AHL, IMO.

I'm curious tonellisghost why you think "DL won't let anything happen to DD44 until his contract runs out"? I'm sure DD44 is a great guy and everything, but this is a business and guys like DD44 are a dime a dozen. I will be shocked (and upset) if DD44 and Westgarth are not waived out of camp.

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08-09-2012, 06:08 PM
  #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
This time, it is on the owners because they got the agreement they wanted, everyone said the owners won in the last round, then this year we see ridiculous contracts handed out to free agents and a crazy offer sheet from a big market team that was eventually matched by the much smaller market team, and somehow if the owners decide to lock the players out this time, it's the players' fault again?
This.

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:08 PM
  #886
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Brandon freaking Segal couldn't clear waivers, i wouldn't bank on Muzzin clearing when some teams will really want him, Edmonton, Philly to name 2

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:41 PM
  #887
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I remember the last lockout there was a lot of in fighting between the players and some guys were very outspoken afterwards, ie Sean Avery who said he was duped by Goodenow and said he lost 1 years salary for that bum. Legace also came out against Goodenow and Domi was the one who defended him.

2004-05
Sean Avery, who is with the Los Angeles Kings, speaks out about the NHL lockout, accusing the NHL Players' Association brass of lying to players about what was happening during negotiations.

Avery tells the Los Angeles Times: "I am furious at [former union head Bob Goodenow]. Bob thought he was bigger than he was. Bob brainwashed players like me. We burned a year for nothing. We didn't win anything. We didn't prove anything. We didn't get anything. We wasted an entire season."


http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/22/sports/sp-nhl22

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:46 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Every year we hear about how there is no way such and such player will clear waivers. Then he does and everybody is shocked. We all like Muzzin and I am sure many teams would like to have him as a prospect, I am not certain that there is going to be many teams lining up to commit a roster spot on him over one of their prospects at the start of the year, guys that they know inside and out and have developed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Muzzin would clear.

I do agree that I hope Hickey and Muzzin battle it out for spot #7, both have proven that there is little more they can learn in the AHL, IMO.

I'm curious tonellisghost why you think "DL won't let anything happen to DD44 until his contract runs out"? I'm sure DD44 is a great guy and everything, but this is a business and guys like DD44 are a dime a dozen. I will be shocked (and upset) if DD44 and Westgarth are not waived out of camp.
My position on DD44's standing with the team hasn't anything to do with him as a person or even as a player really but more to how DL handles his commitments to his players. DL has shown that he rewards loyalty above most things when it comes to "his guys" and he has claimed DD44 a few times as being one.

Now do I think that DD44 should be either moved if possible or waived? I absolutely think that his time with the team has reached its end and that he should be given every opportunity to go and try to continue his pro career wherever possible. Waived, dealt doesn't matter to me. The guy can play more than a #7 on a non contender and maybe even on one but we need space and he would be the logical move.

As for Westgarth or even Richardson I think that they can both be replaced from within and would hope to see them either moved or waived but who knows what will happen. I am not certain that DL won't honor his NHL "guys" firstly and then his prospects secondly.

The fact is that as we sit today someone is going to have to either be waived or dealt so something will give.

I look for Westgarth to end up being waived and hopefully a deal or two before the season starts, that would be the best possible outcome for this scenario to me.

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:54 PM
  #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Are you kidding me? Did you not pay attention to the last lockout? Nobody was siding with the players and we all were aware of how stubborn and foolish Bob Goodenow was in his refusal to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement that contained a salary cap.

This time, it is on the owners because they got the agreement they wanted, everyone said the owners won in the last round, then this year we see ridiculous contracts handed out to free agents and a crazy offer sheet from a big market team that was eventually matched by the much smaller market team, and somehow if the owners decide to lock the players out this time, it's the players' fault again?

Are they holding a gun to the heads of these owners and forcing them to pay their salaries? Of course not, the owners are setting the market value for them and they are being paid accordingly. The revenue sharing system is broken and that is what needs to be fixed, and the league is taking it out of the players' share to fix it.
Absolutely agree that the revenue sharing system needs to be fixed. The owners may have thought that they got what they needed in the last CBA, but they obviously were wrong.

On the players side, they are going to have to take a lower percentage of HRR for their salaries. The owners just are not going to accept giving them 57% of the HRR, so yes the players are going to have to compromise on that point. If they don't there will be a lockout and it will be on them just as much as it is on the owners.

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:59 PM
  #890
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Maybe this is because I'm not in the business field, but why isn't it at 50/50 to being with?

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Old
08-09-2012, 07:19 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Maybe this is because I'm not in the business field, but why isn't it at 50/50 to being with?
I was too young to understand fully the last negotiations, but perhaps it had to do with getting the players to agree to a hard cap. In order to get them to agree, the owners got bent-over in revenue sharing.

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Old
08-09-2012, 08:04 PM
  #892
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Absolutely agree that the revenue sharing system needs to be fixed. The owners may have thought that they got what they needed in the last CBA, but they obviously were wrong.

On the players side, they are going to have to take a lower percentage of HRR for their salaries. The owners just are not going to accept giving them 57% of the HRR, so yes the players are going to have to compromise on that point. If they don't there will be a lockout and it will be on them just as much as it is on the owners.
This.

Just because the owners got most of what they wanted in the last CBA negotiations, the system is still clearly way out of whack. They have no obligation to keep the status-quo just because they agreed to it seven years ago, a lot changes in seven years.

They will be closer to 47% HRR than 57% when this is all said and done, although I expect it to be 50/50, this will probably drag out close to the New Year.

I still maintain the biggest issues other than HRR, are the salaries given to complimentary players (Gaustad, Stoll, Souray, Jones etc) as well as contracts to guys a tier above that (Hudler, Wideman). As for the contracts to players like Weber, Parise, Suter and guys like that, I don't think anyone has a problem with the AAV, these are star players who put butts in the seats, they will always be paid accordingly. The NHL now faces a similar issue to the NBA that the star players salaries are fine, while a #4 or #5 starter or bench players are being grossly overpaid. Obviously it's a different game, and hockey demands more contributions from the entire team, but even with saying that, the contracts of all the guys I listed above are unrealistic, unsustainable and bad for the league as a whole.

Once this is over, you will see, a guy like Dustin Brown, who already was underpaid is not going to get nearly as much on July 1st 2013 (when he can begin negotiating an extension) as he would have gotten had he been able to negotiate on July 1st of this year. Just awful timing for Dustin.

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08-09-2012, 08:06 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Maybe this is because I'm not in the business field, but why isn't it at 50/50 to being with?
Every other major sport at the time had better than a 50/50 split if they had a cap. The tide has now turned to where 50/50 is the norm. And it will get there if the owners agree to a real revenue sharing program. But that is going to be a big sticking point. Even though every owner that also has another team in any major sport has it there and they seem to be doing just fine.

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Old
08-09-2012, 08:12 PM
  #894
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Maybe this is because I'm not in the business field, but why isn't it at 50/50 to being with?
Because in the last decade that was what the other leagues had. The NBA fixed their mess, the NHL will this year.

The problem with a cap tied to revenue and little revenue sharing is you have teams like Toronto, New York, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Chicago, Detroit etc. making money hand over fist and teams like Phoenix, Atlanta, Florida, Columbus being unable to handle the salary demands of a cap linked to revenue. Even teams like the Kings, Stars, Avalanche and Capitals have struggled to stay out of the red in this flawed system.

It has been seven years since the cap was implemented, because of the revenue being driven mostly by those large market teams, the cap floor is currently higher than the cap ceiling was in 2007, the majority of the teams simply can't keep up, with some drowning in red ink.

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08-09-2012, 08:18 PM
  #895
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A lockout benefits the Kings ironically. They need the rest.

I'm siding with the players this time around. The owners had carte blanche to write whatever CBA they wanted the last time. The fact that they managed to blow that opportunity isn't the players fault.

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08-09-2012, 08:19 PM
  #896
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Hickey's value is probably a 2nd round pick from a decent team who thinks he could make their roster as a #6 or #7.

I think you're getting a bit caught up in where he was drafted. Here is the deal with Thomas Hickey. He was drafted in 2007, since then he has been beaten out for NHL spots by three players who were drafted after him (Martinez, 4th round 07), Doughty (1st round 08), Voynov (2nd round 08). You could also include Muzzin in that group, he is the same age as Hickey and beat him out for that final spot in 10-11.

Hickey has had his chances and he was simply passed up by better players. What do you realistically expect his value to be? I don't see a team like NYI, Columbus or EDM trading an early 2nd next year for this guy, not when there is a chance he will be on waivers.

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08-09-2012, 08:23 PM
  #897
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
A lockout benefits the Kings ironically. They need the rest.

I'm siding with the players this time around. The owners had carte blanche to write whatever CBA they wanted the last time. The fact that they managed to blow that opportunity isn't the players fault.
Again. I don't understand this thinking at all, they are the business owners. They signed a seven year deal, they honored the deal and many of them were massacred.

What obligation do they have to keep this current CBA when it is literally bankrupting certain franchises and causing even larger markets like LA and Dallas to be in red ink?

The players were compensated extraordinarily well in this CBA.


Last edited by Herby: 08-09-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old
08-09-2012, 08:41 PM
  #898
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Can hockey really with stand it's 3rd lockout? Awful.

We have a salary cap now and it's an even playing field, but one team is still owned by the NHL, one team moved last year and the UFA salaries are still ridiculous.

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Old
08-09-2012, 08:44 PM
  #899
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On a side note, I would take $100,000 a year for the life and luxury these players have on the road. Sign me up for any CBA. I'd be grateful to be playing hockey professionally in the NHL. Not trying to be a jerk, just saying...

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08-09-2012, 08:46 PM
  #900
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Again. I don't understand this thinking at all, they are the business owners. They signed a seven year deal, they honored the deal and many of them were massacred.

What obligation do they have to keep this current CBA when it is literally bankrupting certain franchises and causing even larger markets like LA and Dallas to be in red ink?
I'm not sure it's the CBA that is the problem as much as owners and teams themselves. The cap has resulted in great parity, but the bottom line is that you still have to evaluate your roster before you go out and spend spend spend. You have middling teams without a strong developmental system that go out and overpay middle tier or older guys just to try to sneak in that 8th spot. Their lack of depth is exposed when an injury or two hits and the result is another season of losing money. Teams haven't figured out how to stay near the floor until their younger talent matures. When the window starts opening, then you spend. Too many teams try to catch lightning in a bottle and they pay for it.

I also don't believe that many owners are losing money. The team might, but the owners aren't. AEG certainly has been making money the last few years.

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