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Old
08-09-2012, 11:16 PM
  #76
Crymson
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Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
Like Lindstrom was in the twilight of his career 6 years ago? Boyle is 36 (born in 1976), but he has not shown any signs of regression. The past 4 years he was 7th (where he started the year with a broken foot), 2nd, 4th and 6th among NHL D-men for TOI. It goes without saying that Boyle is not the defenseman that Lindstrom was, but he is comparable offensively, good defensively and would be Detroit's best D-man. With your current defense, you wouldn't trade a 3rd liner for 2 years of that? I doubt Holland would agree.
If you're going to be discussing hockey at all, you ought to learn how to spell Lidstrom's name correctly.

As others have said, Lidstrom was ageless in a way that no other defenseman in history has been.

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08-09-2012, 11:17 PM
  #77
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There isn't a trade to be had between the Sharks and Wings right now. Wings will want someone like Bouwmeester who will log a lot of minutes and be solid defensively first and foremost. Vlasic was the only guy the Sharks have that could've been appealing but they locked him up with a new deal so that's not happening anymore.

I think Sharks' fans are going to have to deal with what they have for the start of the season (if there is one) and make additions as the year progresses...hopefully not waiting for the deadline again because that almost never works.
Vlasic and Burns are the only defense men on the Sharks I would want, and they obviously are there for the long haul.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:19 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I think Detroit would prefer a blueliner that's a bit younger and has a longer contract, so this deal wouldn't work as written even in a rational world. That said, we don't live in a rational world, we live in a world where Darren Helm is arguably the single most overrated roster player in the National Hockey League, and no deal discussion involving him will ever end well. You'd have a better chance trying to pick up Zetterberg, because I seriously think half the Red Wings fanbase would rather lose him than Darren Helm.
People think they can get Helm on the cheap nobody tries that with Hank. Guess you also missed everyone qualifying their post with after Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall, Helm is probably the most untouchable. Personally I would add Howard in before Helm, but cannot speak for the rest of the fan-base however.

It would be very hard for people in Detroit to get excited about trading Helm. You have keep in mind people in Detroit LOVED Kris Draper so this isn't exactly a hard place to gain that love as a bottom six guy that excels.

By the way if we get out of the gate rough, I could see that line of thinking changing, but it would still take overpayment to pry him away. More important than just fans is that management and coaches also have an active role in the Darren Helm fan club.

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08-09-2012, 11:19 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I think Detroit would prefer a blueliner that's a bit younger and has a longer contract, so this deal wouldn't work as written even in a rational world. That said, we don't live in a rational world, we live in a world where Darren Helm is arguably the single most overrated roster player in the National Hockey League, and no deal discussion involving him will ever end rationally. You'd have a better chance trying to pick up Pavel Datsyuk.
Your right it is an irrational world. However, he is a crucial cog to the present and the future in Detroit. His value to DET far outweighs his value to the other 29 hockey teams. He really is the faster version of Kris Draper. A championship team does not let go of the good role players easily.

And your right, about being more likely to get Datsyuk then Helm. Why? Because, again, Helm is much more valuable on the Wings roster than as whatever pieces that he'd bring in a trade *unless* he was the lynchpin in a major deal.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:22 PM
  #80
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I needed a good laugh, thanks for creating this topic.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:25 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Ok you guys don't want to trade Helm. I wouldn't either as he is your only young guy.
that would be one more than San Jose.

The Sharks better win in the next year or so OR just start selling now. They might very well have the worst farm system I've ever seen.

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08-09-2012, 11:28 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
that would be one more than San Jose.

The Sharks better win in the next year or so OR just start selling now. They might very well have the worst farm system I've ever seen.
That's completely untrue, we have some very solid prospects, people are just looking for flash. Red Wings don't have any real flash in their system either, for the same reason. Good drafting takes time to develop.

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08-09-2012, 11:33 PM
  #83
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That's completely untrue, we have some very solid prospects, people are just looking for flash. Red Wings don't have any real flash in their system either, for the same reason. Good drafting takes time to develop.
Actually Detroit's system is loaded with Flash, if that's what you want to call it. The Sharks have gutted their system in recent years and have literally little in the way of guys who even have a legitimate chance of contributing significant NHL minutes. Some of their moves have been baffling with only one legitimate reason. They're in it to win it the last few years. All in... It might be time to retool now.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:33 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
That's completely untrue, we have some very solid prospects, people are just looking for flash. Red Wings don't have any real flash in their system either, for the same reason. Good drafting takes time to develop.
Except for the most part the Wings prospect pool is getting good ratings, while most everything you'll hear about the Shark's pool is that it's awful.

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08-09-2012, 11:42 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
That's completely untrue, we have some very solid prospects, people are just looking for flash. Red Wings don't have any real flash in their system either, for the same reason. Good drafting takes time to develop.
Couture is better than any young player we have and is established unlike Smith and Nyquist.

However, I seriously wouldn't consider moving one of our top 10 prospects for your top prospect right now. It is clear you don't know much about the difference between the farm systems.

The Wings farm system is overflowing with top 6 potential talent. I consider Pulkkinen right now to be the Wings 12th best prospect and he has more offensive talent and flash in his pinkie finger than either Freddie Hamilton or Matt Nieto.

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08-09-2012, 11:53 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Couture is better than any young player we have and is established unlike Smith and Nyquist.

However, I seriously wouldn't consider moving one of our top 10 prospects for your top prospect right now. It is clear you don't know much about the difference between the farm systems.

The Wings farm system is overflowing with top 6 potential talent. I consider Pulkkinen right now to be the Wings 12th best prospect and he has more offensive talent and flash in his pinkie finger than either Freddie Hamilton or Matt Nieto.
....

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Old
08-10-2012, 12:03 AM
  #87
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Not a fan of either team, but:

Franzen, Tatar, 1st,

for Dan Boyle

Wings get their replacement number 1 D for 2-3 years, who can help them compete during that time as well as mentor Smith, helping him fulfill his potential. Franzen is also an older player(although not as old as Boyle, but is also significantly worse, so they give up some prospect depth to make up the difference).

The Sharks get an excellent skater the same age as their core, as well as adding a pretty good prospect and a 1st in a deep draft.

I think this suits everyone's needs.

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08-10-2012, 12:11 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
Ok, I'll admit that I definitely did underestimate Helm. I didn't realize that Red Wings fans valued him that much, and thus I don't want this thread to get chippy. So lets get some things straight: Sharks fans think Boyle is a top 10 defenseman still with lots left in the tank and that he can fetch us more than just Helm. Red Wings fans value Helm a lot and do not want to give him up unless they're getting gold in return lol. Helm is a skilled, speedy 3rd liner and I can understand you guys not wanting to give him up.

Since the Sharks are still in need of a 3rd liner would Red Wings fans be opposed to something like:

Sharks get:
Drew Miller
7th round pick

Red Wings get:
Jason Demers
4th round pick

I think this is a fair trade. The Red Wings get a good young, offensive puck moving defenseman who is pretty fast and has a good shot from the point to improve their defense core. The Sharks get a solid 3rd liner in Drew Miller who is a good defensive forward and is good at killing penalties. Shoot this trade down if you will but I think its fair.
Completely fair deal, i saw a change of 7th to 5th suggested, also fair.

Miller is a great PK bottom 6 player, and he had 14 goals last year. He can pot them if given some talent to play with.
I do not know much about demers, but we have only 1 defenseman with a right handed shot, and we have too many bottom 6 forwards. I might make this deal just to give some younger guys some playing time, even if they are weaker than miller.

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Old
08-10-2012, 12:12 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
....
Enlightening, I totally see your point. Seriously the Sharks just signed a college free agent and he is immediately your fourth best prospect. If you cannot see the difference between the systems I don't know what else to say to you.

I stand by not wanting to move a single one of our top 10 for the guys in your system. Hamilton is the best of the group as far as I am concerned and I am happier having Riley Sheahan as a big physical centerman because he is already 223 lbs and there is no question his physical game will transition to the pro level. The other guys all have significant offensive upside over the other people in the Sharks system.

Taylor Doherty's stock imploded this year.

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Old
08-10-2012, 12:14 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Not a fan of either team, but:

Franzen, Tatar, 1st,

for Dan Boyle

Wings get their replacement number 1 D for 2-3 years, who can help them compete during that time as well as mentor Smith, helping him fulfill his potential. Franzen is also an older player(although not as old as Boyle, but is also significantly worse, so they give up some prospect depth to make up the difference).

The Sharks get an excellent skater the same age as their core, as well as adding a pretty good prospect and a 1st in a deep draft.

I think this suits everyone's needs.
If and it would be a big if, the Wings and Sharks hooked up for Boyle, Franzen is fair value by himself. Guys a 32 year old 25-35 goal guarantee. Boyle is 36. Adding Tatar and a #1 is something you'd see on a video game, not real life.

The undervalue of Franzen on these boards is crazy. Probably due to his looking 76 years old.

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Old
08-10-2012, 12:18 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
If and it would be a big if, the Wings and Sharks hooked up for Boyle, Franzen is fair value by himself. Guys a 32 year old 25-35 goal guarantee. Boyle is 36. Adding Tatar and a #1 is something you'd see on a video game, not real life.

The undervalue of Franzen on these boards is crazy. Probably due to his looking 76 years old.
I thought Franzen was 33, but personally I don't think a few years makes up the difference between a scoring winger and a number 1 D, especially right now, when you have several teams scrabbling for defensemen.

Detroit is lucky enough to have enough prospect depth to absorb the loss fairly easily.

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08-10-2012, 12:24 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
....
The Sharks' prospect pool has been rated #30 by more than one outlet.

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08-10-2012, 12:25 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I thought Franzen was 33, but personally I don't think a few years makes up the difference between a scoring winger and a number 1 D, especially right now, when you have several teams scrabbling for defensemen.

Detroit is lucky enough to have enough prospect depth to absorb the loss fairly easily.
Actually Detroit cannot absorb the loss of Franzen.
He is the best scorer on the team.

Everyone else is a passer.

Also Everyone always highly prizes people they want to dump.

There is a reason you want to dump Boyle, and thats because Burns is Better.

You say you want to trade someone worth a franzen, then I say start with Burns.

That is a #1 D.

also there is a big difference between 36 and 32. Both old BUT.

32 has 3-4 SOLID years left. 36 might only have 1 (Rafalski retired at 37, and that was a big shock for us)

Just saying the same reason you are willing to drop Boyle is the same reason we don't want him.

If we are going with "psuedo #1 D's I'd start with Jaybo because he is younger, even though BOYLE is a great defenseman and better than Jaybo, you have to see Jaybo is closer in age to franzen, and thus we are trading a 5 year player for a 5 year player

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08-10-2012, 12:27 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I thought Franzen was 33, but personally I don't think a few years makes up the difference between a scoring winger and a number 1 D, especially right now, when you have several teams scrabbling for defensemen.

Detroit is lucky enough to have enough prospect depth to absorb the loss fairly easily.
Im with you if Boyle is 34 even but after 35, it's a toss up if you play year to year. He'd be great in Detroit but that would be a heavy price to pay for a guy who might call it quits after his contract.

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08-10-2012, 12:28 AM
  #95
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OMG! "our system is better than your system", "You don't know what you're talking about" "spelling errors", blah blah blah ****ing blah.

These teams will not be making any trades with one another any time soon, even if it made logical sense and made each team better. They're rivals who both believe they can win now.

Now, everyone needs to come to this realization and quit bickering over something that will never happen.

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08-10-2012, 12:32 AM
  #96
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The Sharks' prospect pool has been rated #30 by more than one outlet.
Luckily, their system isn't their concern at the moment. They have plenty of on-ice talent and depth on the pro level.

Eventual trades, hanging onto draft picks, and development of minor leaguers will help when the eventual re-tool is needed. Fortunately, this is a league where you can get good in a hurry if you have solid management running the show.

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08-10-2012, 12:34 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
OMG! "our system is better than your system", "You don't know what you're talking about" "spelling errors", blah blah blah ****ing blah.

These teams will not be making any trades with one another any time soon, even if it made logical sense and made each team better. They're rivals who both believe they can win now.

Now, everyone needs to come to this realization and quit bickering over something that will never happen.
You can say what you want, San Jose has the worst farm system in the NHL. So bringing it up is going to be met with negativity anytime the Sharks fan-base makes the choice to do it.

They made a trade less than two months ago, now that seemed a formality because of Stuart's family situation but I am guessing the GMs do talk. I do think a fit is unlikely, Detroit seems to be making a transition that the Sharks probably should have thought about two years ago before doubling down.

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08-10-2012, 12:36 AM
  #98
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Actually Detroit cannot absorb the loss of Franzen.
He is the best scorer on the team.

Everyone else is a passer.

Also Everyone always highly prizes people they want to dump.

There is a reason you want to dump Boyle, and thats because Burns is Better.

You say you want to trade someone worth a franzen, then I say start with Burns.

That is a #1 D.

also there is a big difference between 36 and 32. Both old BUT.

32 has 3-4 SOLID years left. 36 might only have 1 (Rafalski retired at 37, and that was a big shock for us)

Just saying the same reason you are willing to drop Boyle is the same reason we don't want him.

If we are going with "psuedo #1 D's I'd start with Jaybo because he is younger, even though BOYLE is a great defenseman and better than Jaybo, you have to see Jaybo is closer in age to franzen, and thus we are trading a 5 year player for a 5 year player

I don't want to dump anyone, I'm just giving a neutral fan's perspective on what I feel is fair value., and suits both teams.

That Boyle might retire in a year is a fair concern, maybe a Shark's fan can give some insight on his conditioning and willingness to play for a few more years.

And I was referring to the effect on your prospect pool that could be absorbed from the loss of Tatar and 1st, when you still have Smith, Jarnkok, Nyquist...

Losing Franzen hurts, but I think Boyle would do more for your team, and you also open roster spots for some of your prospects to start proving themselves.

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08-10-2012, 12:42 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And I was referring to the effect on your prospect pool that could be absorbed from the loss of Tatar and 1st, when you still have Smith, Jarnkok, Nyquist...

Losing Franzen hurts, but I think Boyle would do more for your team, and you also open roster spots for some of your prospects to start proving themselves.
I'd rather have an overabundance of highly skilled players in the NHL and trade them then for big returns than trade them now as a package for a 36 year old D-man.

Obviously this is an extreme example, but think about what would've happened if PITT traded Staal when he was extremely young because they had Crosby and Malkin. Probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as good of a return as they did in June.

There's really only a few options. We trade them now and they bust wherever they go, so whatever. We trade them now and they thrive wherever they go, then it sucks for us, and even moreso if the guys we keep bust. We hold on to them and they bust, oh well. Or we hold on to them, they thrive, and we have options.

I prefer the fourth option.

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08-10-2012, 12:42 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
OMG! "our system is better than your system", "You don't know what you're talking about" "spelling errors", blah blah blah ****ing blah.

These teams will not be making any trades with one another any time soon, even if it made logical sense and made each team better. They're rivals who both believe they can win now.

Now, everyone needs to come to this realization and quit bickering over something that will never happen.
agreed.

Couture 23
Pavelski 28
Clowe 29
Thornton 33
Marleau 32
Havlat 31
Burns 27
Boyle 36

I would say besides Couture, this team is built to win NOW.

Sadly I would say that team is better than Detroits:

Datsyuk 34
Zetterberg 31
Filppula 28
Franzen 32
Kronwall 31

Mostly because its about 8 Stars (6 forwards, 2 defenseman for SJ)
and 5 stars (4 forwards, 1 defenseman for DRW)

Now I suggest honestly a COMBO of SJ and DRW
flip a coin and one team trades EVERYONE under 25 to the other team and ALL prospects for every star.

Then we got a F#&$ing contender!!! LOL

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