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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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08-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I disagree they're that better defensively. IMO you're discriminating against them based on their youth, and putting putting way too much emphasis on physical play for defense. Wingers don't need to be physical to be good defensively.



St. Louis playing with Stamkos padded his stats, there's no way around it. 60 goals 100 points, come on.

Eberle isn't slow.

MSL will 39 in 2014. I don't think he'll be ppg even if still playing with Stamkos. Eberle could easily be at 80-90 points and MSL at 50-60 points. Easy decision here.



Like I said if Bergeon is at the same level as this year, he should be there. However I think it was a career year and the 3 bolded will be clearly better offensively and not as far off defensively as you think.



Switch MSL and Eberle this year. No way MSL comes close to Eberle's 76 points because:
1-No Stamkos
2-Very imited ice time for Oiler stars (he would play less than in TB)
3-RNH and Hall missed some time this year

Eberle was the 3rd most productive player 5-on-5 this season (points/ice time). Behind Crosby and Malkin. Yes ahead of Stamkos.



But RNH isn't one dimensional and has drawn comparisons to Datsyuk. Obviously he needs to improve from his current form, but I see no reason why he wouldn't.



Couture is better offensively than everyone in that bunch though, and is definitely no slouch defensively. Imagine where he'll be in 2 years.



MSL won't be anywhere near the top 4 offensively in 2014. Come on. Crosby, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Eberle is the top 5.

Richards isn't good enough offensively. They're are more talented and swifter skaters available.

Nash is on the bubble, 14/15th forward right now. If Skinner, Duchene, Couture, Seguin, RNH, Hall, don't improve enough I would put Nash in there.

Nash proved himself as a defensive forward DURING that tournament.



The only thing I disagree with is that Begeron, Richards and Nash are 70 point forwards. They're not anymore and I think my guys have a better shot at than them.

Also, before 2010, was Nash considered a good two-way player and penalty killer? NO.

Was Bergeron (same age as Couture will be in 2014) considered an elite defensive forward? At least not more than Couture currently is.

Some guys proved themselves at the Olympics (or after in Bergeron's case - Selke). Seguin and Couture are these types of guys that could break out and reinforce their rep as two-way players.
I'm a big fan of young players and I follow them years before hitting the NHL. I'm a huge fan of the draft and everything, but Duchene and Couture will not be selke caliber players like Bergeron is. This wasn't Bergerons first good year either. Perhaps he'll never win a selke again, but you can bet on him being in the top 10 every year at the very least. Seguin is the only one I see that could get close, but even still not as good(in terms of defense). It doesn't matter a whole lot for their offensive abilities because they're not going to get 18-20 mins and won't get any PP time. A lot of their mins will come from shutting down the other teams and playing the PK. I trust Bergeron a lot more on the PK than I ever would for Couture, Duchene and even Seguin.

A side note, for young players(since you believe I discriminate young players), by 2018 I would most likely have Sean Couturier on my 3rd or 4th line. HE is someone who will be THAT good defensively and offensively as well too.

My point was, St Louis also makes Stamkos look good. You think Stamkos would have reached 60 goals without an elite playmaker? Without St Louis, I bet he would of "only" got 45 goals. Eberle doesn't benefit from TWO 1st overall picks?
Since you take the big ice into the equation so much, I don't know what you have against St Louis, who is a better skater than 99% of the league. As I said, Eberle is quite slow considering his below average size. Eberle isn't going to become a Selke winner either btw.

E.Kane just scored 30 goals in 74 games. Likely to hit 40 goals next year or the year after. He's also good defensively and 1 of the more physical players in the league. Much better complete game and much better suited for a bottom 6 role than Duchene, Seguin, Couture. Also, since he's a very good skater, there's no reason he shouldn't make Team Canada.

Perry just scored 37 goals and got 50 goals and 98 points the year before. Again, Couturue, Seguin, Duchene won't even top that offensively. Perry is better defensively than them now and a year and a half from now, MAYBE they'll be even. He's than thnot a bad skater either and is much more physical em too. He could play any role too. E.Kane and Perry are both locks in my opinion.

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08-09-2012, 11:15 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I disagree they're that better defensively. IMO you're discriminating against them based on their youth, and putting putting way too much emphasis on physical play for defense. Wingers don't need to be physical to be good defensively.



St. Louis playing with Stamkos padded his stats, there's no way around it. 60 goals 100 points, come on.

Eberle isn't slow.

MSL will 39 in 2014. I don't think he'll be ppg even if still playing with Stamkos. Eberle could easily be at 80-90 points and MSL at 50-60 points. Easy decision here.



Like I said if Bergeon is at the same level as this year, he should be there. However I think it was a career year and the 3 bolded will be clearly better offensively and not as far off defensively as you think.



Switch MSL and Eberle this year. No way MSL comes close to Eberle's 76 points because:
1-No Stamkos
2-Very imited ice time for Oiler stars (he would play less than in TB)
3-RNH and Hall missed some time this year

Eberle was the 3rd most productive player 5-on-5 this season (points/ice time). Behind Crosby and Malkin. Yes ahead of Stamkos.



But RNH isn't one dimensional and has drawn comparisons to Datsyuk. Obviously he needs to improve from his current form, but I see no reason why he wouldn't.



Couture is better offensively than everyone in that bunch though, and is definitely no slouch defensively. Imagine where he'll be in 2 years.



MSL won't be anywhere near the top 4 offensively in 2014. Come on. Crosby, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Eberle is the top 5.

Richards isn't good enough offensively. They're are more talented and swifter skaters available.

Nash is on the bubble, 14/15th forward right now. If Skinner, Duchene, Couture, Seguin, RNH, Hall, don't improve enough I would put Nash in there.

Nash proved himself as a defensive forward DURING that tournament.



The only thing I disagree with is that Begeron, Richards and Nash are 70 point forwards. They're not anymore and I think my guys have a better shot at than them.

Also, before 2010, was Nash considered a good two-way player and penalty killer? NO.

Was Bergeron (same age as Couture will be in 2014) considered an elite defensive forward? At least not more than Couture currently is.

Some guys proved themselves at the Olympics (or after in Bergeron's case - Selke). Seguin and Couture are these types of guys that could break out and reinforce their rep as two-way players.
You'd be hardpressed to find anyone to agree with you on the bits about St. Louis and Eberle. Also, your stat about Eberle being third in ES points / ES icetime is wrong... Hes behind Stamkos and only barely above St. Louis, so I dont see why its even relivant. It was only a year ago he was nominated for the Hart...

Disagree on most everything else as well, and Bergeron was condidered an elite defensive forward.

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08-10-2012, 02:32 AM
  #253
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re: eberle - i'm fairly certain he'll make the team. he's skilled enough and when it comes to the politics of Hockey Canada he's a well liked guy. Whoever above said he isn't slow is right...but he's also not a particularly good skater - that won't make a difference re him making the team...but it does mean they'll have to be careful w/ line combinations - he should not be on the same line as Giroux, for example.

re: toews - i don't think he's appropriately a "checking centre". he obviously brings a 2-way game...but he's very good offensively and he's also excellent at faceoffs.

re: doan - he absolutely should not be on the team. for people who have mentioned his leadership, you'll have HC repeats of Crosby, Toews, and Weber - all of whom are captains on their teams and Giroux, who will probably be C in philly by winter 2014 will be there, too. The team will not lack leadership (including from players who were in Van).

re: coaching. I was thinking a bit about coaches. In Van Babcock was head coach and the assts were Hitchcock, Ruff, and Lemaire. I wouldn't mind seeing Babcock back as head coach again. Hitchcock should be in the mix again...others would include Quenneville, Julien,and Sutter

re: GM - I've just been assuming Yzerman will be back.

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08-10-2012, 05:53 AM
  #254
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re: eberle - i'm fairly certain he'll make the team. he's skilled enough and when it comes to the politics of Hockey Canada he's a well liked guy. Whoever above said he isn't slow is right...but he's also not a particularly good skater - that won't make a difference re him making the team...but it does mean they'll have to be careful w/ line combinations - he should not be on the same line as Giroux, for example.

re: toews - i don't think he's appropriately a "checking centre". he obviously brings a 2-way game...but he's very good offensively and he's also excellent at faceoffs.

re: doan - he absolutely should not be on the team. for people who have mentioned his leadership, you'll have HC repeats of Crosby, Toews, and Weber - all of whom are captains on their teams and Giroux, who will probably be C in philly by winter 2014 will be there, too. The team will not lack leadership (including from players who were in Van).

re: coaching. I was thinking a bit about coaches. In Van Babcock was head coach and the assts were Hitchcock, Ruff, and Lemaire. I wouldn't mind seeing Babcock back as head coach again. Hitchcock should be in the mix again...others would include Quenneville, Julien,and Sutter

re: GM - I've just been assuming Yzerman will be back.
Hockey Canada has already named Yzerman GM of the team as long as NHL players are participating. That what done last February at a press conference..and Babcock has already stated, he's in if Yzerman asks. If the NHL and NHLPA can't agree on olympic participation, then Yzerman has already stated there will be other people involved.

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08-10-2012, 06:18 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I disagree they're that better defensively. IMO you're discriminating against them based on their youth, and putting putting way too much emphasis on physical play for defense. Wingers don't need to be physical to be good defensively.

St. Louis playing with Stamkos padded his stats, there's no way around it. 60 goals 100 points, come on.

Eberle isn't slow.

MSL will 39 in 2014. I don't think he'll be ppg even if still playing with Stamkos. Eberle could easily be at 80-90 points and MSL at 50-60 points. Easy decision here.

Like I said if Bergeon is at the same level as this year, he should be there. However I think it was a career year and the 3 bolded will be clearly better offensively and not as far off defensively as you think.

Switch MSL and Eberle this year. No way MSL comes close to Eberle's 76 points because:
1-No Stamkos
2-Very imited ice time for Oiler stars (he would play less than in TB)
3-RNH and Hall missed some time this year

Eberle was the 3rd most productive player 5-on-5 this season (points/ice time). Behind Crosby and Malkin. Yes ahead of Stamkos.

But RNH isn't one dimensional and has drawn comparisons to Datsyuk. Obviously he needs to improve from his current form, but I see no reason why he wouldn't.

Couture is better offensively than everyone in that bunch though, and is definitely no slouch defensively. Imagine where he'll be in 2 years.

MSL won't be anywhere near the top 4 offensively in 2014. Come on. Crosby, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Eberle is the top 5.

Richards isn't good enough offensively. They're are more talented and swifter skaters available.

Nash is on the bubble, 14/15th forward right now. If Skinner, Duchene, Couture, Seguin, RNH, Hall, don't improve enough I would put Nash in there.

Nash proved himself as a defensive forward DURING that tournament.

The only thing I disagree with is that Begeron, Richards and Nash are 70 point forwards. They're not anymore and I think my guys have a better shot at than them.

Also, before 2010, was Nash considered a good two-way player and penalty killer? NO.

Was Bergeron (same age as Couture will be in 2014) considered an elite defensive forward? At least not more than Couture currently is.

Some guys proved themselves at the Olympics (or after in Bergeron's case - Selke). Seguin and Couture are these types of guys that could break out and reinforce their rep as two-way players.
We have a fundamental difference in our views about the kind of player will help team Canada. It doesn't seem like I'll be able to convince you that Nash, Bergeron, and Richards are more valuable than Couture, Duchene, Skinner, etc., and vice versa, so let's agree to disagree. Eberle is a really good bet to make the team, but it doesn't mean he's significantly better than MSL at this point or probably in 2014 either. You won't find much support for that position amongst knowledgeable hockey fans here.

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08-10-2012, 09:15 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Yikes...hopefully he's not our starter.

Not sold on Getzlaf being suited for a 13th forward role. He's not a PKer, is only average on faceoffs, doesn't play the wing, and probably can't be counted on to play a more defensive-oriented role - so overall he's not very versatile. I hope he bounces back to his 2010 form, and if he does, he'd be in my top-9. Plus, I don't think he has the attitude necessary for a 13th forward role; he's always seemed like a bit of a diva to me (but perhaps baldness = maturity).
What's wrong with Luongo starting? He won the gold as the starter in 2010...I think much will be determined by how the goalies are playing that season, but as it stands Luongo should be the incumbent starter, Price the backup, and either Holtby or Fleury as number 3.

WRT Getzlaf, I agree with your assessment; however, I have him included in the event we need more offense. I remember back in 2006 we barely had any offense and ended up eliminated because of it. I don't want that to happen again.

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08-10-2012, 03:36 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Hockey Canada has already named Yzerman GM of the team as long as NHL players are participating. That what done last February at a press conference..and Babcock has already stated, he's in if Yzerman asks. If the NHL and NHLPA can't agree on olympic participation, then Yzerman has already stated there will be other people involved.
That seems unlikely; I read recently that they both think they should be there. It's one of the few things they do agree on.

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08-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #258
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I'm a big fan of young players and I follow them years before hitting the NHL. I'm a huge fan of the draft and everything, but Duchene and Couture will not be selke caliber players like Bergeron is. This wasn't Bergerons first good year either. Perhaps he'll never win a selke again, but you can bet on him being in the top 10 every year at the very least. Seguin is the only one I see that could get close, but even still not as good(in terms of defense). It doesn't matter a whole lot for their offensive abilities because they're not going to get 18-20 mins and won't get any PP time. A lot of their mins will come from shutting down the other teams and playing the PK. I trust Bergeron a lot more on the PK than I ever would for Couture, Duchene and even Seguin.

A side note, for young players(since you believe I discriminate young players), by 2018 I would most likely have Sean Couturier on my 3rd or 4th line. HE is someone who will be THAT good defensively and offensively as well too.

My point was, St Louis also makes Stamkos look good. You think Stamkos would have reached 60 goals without an elite playmaker? Without St Louis, I bet he would of "only" got 45 goals. Eberle doesn't benefit from TWO 1st overall picks?
Since you take the big ice into the equation so much, I don't know what you have against St Louis, who is a better skater than 99% of the league. As I said, Eberle is quite slow considering his below average size. Eberle isn't going to become a Selke winner either btw.

E.Kane just scored 30 goals in 74 games. Likely to hit 40 goals next year or the year after. He's also good defensively and 1 of the more physical players in the league. Much better complete game and much better suited for a bottom 6 role than Duchene, Seguin, Couture. Also, since he's a very good skater, there's no reason he shouldn't make Team Canada.

Perry just scored 37 goals and got 50 goals and 98 points the year before. Again, Couturue, Seguin, Duchene won't even top that offensively. Perry is better defensively than them now and a year and a half from now, MAYBE they'll be even. He's than thnot a bad skater either and is much more physical em too. He could play any role too. E.Kane and Perry are both locks in my opinion.
I hope to God he is; I would so buy that jersey.

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08-10-2012, 03:38 PM
  #259
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What's wrong with Luongo starting? He won the gold as the starter in 2010...I think much will be determined by how the goalies are playing that season, but as it stands Luongo should be the incumbent starter, Price the backup, and either Holtby or Fleury as number 3.

WRT Getzlaf, I agree with your assessment; however, I have him included in the event we need more offense. I remember back in 2006 we barely had any offense and ended up eliminated because of it. I don't want that to happen again.


Luongo shouldn't even be the 2nd back-up.

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08-10-2012, 04:46 PM
  #260
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Evander Kane could become a player to consider. But he is no lock. I watched every Jets game last year and there's no way he's ahead of other younger players as far as what Team Canada would want for its roster. But if he makes Team C that means he's improved his all round game beyond my short-term hopes for him. And I would be ecstatic.

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08-10-2012, 08:42 PM
  #261
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What's wrong with Luongo starting? He won the gold as the starter in 2010...I think much will be determined by how the goalies are playing that season, but as it stands Luongo should be the incumbent starter, Price the backup, and either Holtby or Fleury as number 3.

WRT Getzlaf, I agree with your assessment; however, I have him included in the event we need more offense. I remember back in 2006 we barely had any offense and ended up eliminated because of it. I don't want that to happen again.
Luongo sucked last year in the playoffs and this year too, he isn't consistent at all, isn't good when there's pressure.

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08-13-2012, 12:48 PM
  #262
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Luongo sucked last year in the playoffs and this year too, he isn't consistent at all, isn't good when there's pressure.
That is a bit harsh and a broad generalization. I have seen Luongo play unbelievable hockey at times, and sometimes play terribly. I am hoping one of Mike Smith or Holtby could shine next year to snatch the top goalie position for Sochi.

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08-13-2012, 06:48 PM
  #263
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Luongo sucked last year in the playoffs and this year too, he isn't consistent at all, isn't good when there's pressure.
Umm this is just plain wrong. Luongo was the Canucks playoff MVP in 2011. He also faced the most pressure of any goalie when he started the gold medal game on home ice, in his home building, and he won. The mantra that he sucks under pressure is complete ********.

Luongo gets the Brodeur spot as number 1 to start the tournament, unless Price can snatch it from him through dominant play.

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08-14-2012, 04:30 AM
  #264
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Umm this is just plain wrong. Luongo was the Canucks playoff MVP in 2011. He also faced the most pressure of any goalie when he started the gold medal game on home ice, in his home building, and he won. The mantra that he sucks under pressure is complete ********.

Luongo gets the Brodeur spot as number 1 to start the tournament, unless Price can snatch it from him through dominant play.
I disagree with a large portion of this. Luongo is a choke artist and shouldn't be given the #1 Job in 2014. Lets look at his playoff performance in 2011.

Chicago series- Pretty shakey in this one at times. Pulled in games 4 and 5. Played a period of game 6. played solid in game 7.

Nashville series- He was way outdueled by Nashville's Pekka Rinne but he was solid. Please know that the Preds didn't have that great of an offence.

San Jose- Sharks are the biggest chokers in the entire league. It was a miracle that they got by The banged up Detroit Red Wings in round 2. He played well but sharks wern't much of a threat.

Cup Final- Just goes to show that he can't close the most important series and should be considered an ultimate choke artist. Ever hear the phrase "12 past luongo?" 12 goals on him in two games. In game 6, He let in 3 goals in 3 minutes and was pulled. Game 7 he let in 3 goals on 20 shots. Not good enough. Face it, He's a choker. I can't stress that enough.

To start 2012 with all that pressure to perform on him, He was once again shakey. It's an understatement to say that Luongo was bad. He played solid down the stretch that is until the pressure was put back on him in the playoffs. I'm sure you remember what happened to him in that series right? choke. choke. choke. choke. CHOKE.

I can argue that the 2010 Canadian team was one of the best teams ever assembled which obviously helped Luongo a lot. He played well against the Slovaks and again against the americans but mind you this was before the 2011 Playoffs where it pretty much started going down hill. He has choked in key moments ever since that gold. I don't trust him and neither does most of Canada. Luongo will probably be playing for Florida or Toronto in the future so his stats obviously won't be as good.

Also, We will have a 26 year old Carey Price. Price is already one of the best goaltenders in the league (Behind a few notable tendys of course) imagine him in two years. There is no doubt in my mind that If Carey Price shows up in the next two years and Luongo continues to be a choke artist, Good ol' C Price will lead Canada to Olympic Gold again.

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08-14-2012, 08:53 AM
  #265
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Umm this is just plain wrong. Luongo was the Canucks playoff MVP in 2011. He also faced the most pressure of any goalie when he started the gold medal game on home ice, in his home building, and he won. The mantra that he sucks under pressure is complete ********.

Luongo gets the Brodeur spot as number 1 to start the tournament, unless Price can snatch it from him through dominant play.
Luongo's problem is that he's very inconsistent; like someone has already said, he alternates between brilliant and terrible play almost on a game-by-game basis, which could kill us in the sudden-death Olympic medal round. I'm not really sure where his confidence is at, these days, but he has some time to turn it around. However, if he ends up in a place like Florida he might not have an opportunity to take a team deep into the playoffs, which is what he really needs to solidify his position in Hockey Canada's view, IMO.

If I were asked to sum up his performance in Vancouver in 2010 in one word, that word would be "adequate". Upon taking over for Brodeur after the U.S. round robin fiasco, he didn't need to do much in either the Germany or Russia games, played really good in the Slovakian semi-final, then looked a bit shaky in the gold medal game. We should have won that game 2-0 IMO.

All that being said, unless Smith or Holtby continue their play from the 2012 playoffs (neither one of those guys really has the pedigree or history to suggest that they're elite goaltenders, and I'll presume that at least one of them falls back to earth between now and December 2013), we're left with Luongo, Ward, Fleury, Smith/Holtby and Price battling it out for 3 goaltending spots. That's a pretty weak field for us, for sure, and our best case is that Price steps it up and grabs the #1 spot this upcoming year and next. Still, even in that realistic scenario Luongo would be a good pick as either the backup or the #3 given his international experience and the chance that you'll get a really good game from him if the #1 falters or gets hurt (like in the 2004 World Cup vs. Czech Rep.). I just don't want us to go in as our starter - I think we'd be in trouble.

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08-14-2012, 10:34 AM
  #266
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I disagree with a large portion of this. Luongo is a choke artist and shouldn't be given the #1 Job in 2014. Lets look at his playoff performance in 2011.

Chicago series- Pretty shakey in this one at times. Pulled in games 4 and 5. Played a period of game 6. played solid in game 7.

Nashville series- He was way outdueled by Nashville's Pekka Rinne but he was solid. Please know that the Preds didn't have that great of an offence.

San Jose- Sharks are the biggest chokers in the entire league. It was a miracle that they got by The banged up Detroit Red Wings in round 2. He played well but sharks wern't much of a threat.

Cup Final- Just goes to show that he can't close the most important series and should be considered an ultimate choke artist. Ever hear the phrase "12 past luongo?" 12 goals on him in two games. In game 6, He let in 3 goals in 3 minutes and was pulled. Game 7 he let in 3 goals on 20 shots. Not good enough. Face it, He's a choker. I can't stress that enough.

To start 2012 with all that pressure to perform on him, He was once again shakey. It's an understatement to say that Luongo was bad. He played solid down the stretch that is until the pressure was put back on him in the playoffs. I'm sure you remember what happened to him in that series right? choke. choke. choke. choke. CHOKE.

I can argue that the 2010 Canadian team was one of the best teams ever assembled which obviously helped Luongo a lot. He played well against the Slovaks and again against the americans but mind you this was before the 2011 Playoffs where it pretty much started going down hill. He has choked in key moments ever since that gold. I don't trust him and neither does most of Canada. Luongo will probably be playing for Florida or Toronto in the future so his stats obviously won't be as good.

Also, We will have a 26 year old Carey Price. Price is already one of the best goaltenders in the league (Behind a few notable tendys of course) imagine him in two years. There is no doubt in my mind that If Carey Price shows up in the next two years and Luongo continues to be a choke artist, Good ol' C Price will lead Canada to Olympic Gold again.
It would be nice to have an intelligent conversation about Canada's roster, including goaltending, without people spewing biased media rhetoric, and a bunch of ******** like "choke choke choke"

If you want to use one standard to judge a goalie then at least be consistent. It's funny how you bash Luongo for TAKING HIS TEAM TO THE STANLEY CUP FINALS yet praise "Good Ol Carey Price" who hasn't done anything in the playoffs.

I'm glad Hockey Canada doesn't pick their teams based on the "fans" popular choices because then we would probably have Cam Ward starting in net. How's he done his last 2 international tournaments, or his last playoff series? and if you want to talk about the team they're on, then use that analysis both ways and look at all the deficiencies the Canucks had in the playoffs. It wasn't all on Luongo, the team in front of him was mentally weak and choked. Shutout on home ice in game 7 of he SCF tells you all you need to know about that team.

Like I said, Luongo will be on the team, and so will Price (barring injury of course). Luongo gets the de facto number 1 job based on past service as long as he's still a top goalie in the NHL, and assuming Price isn't pulling a Jonathan Quick. The real question should be who's number 3?

Last time it was Fleury and I would think he has the edge. However I wouldn't count out Holtby who has has looked very good in very limited NHL action. I wouldn't take Cam Ward, nor would I look at someone like Mike Smith unless he proves last year wasn't a fluke.

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08-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Luongo's problem is that he's very inconsistent; like someone has already said, he alternates between brilliant and terrible play almost on a game-by-game basis, which could kill us in the sudden-death Olympic medal round. I'm not really sure where his confidence is at, these days, but he has some time to turn it around. However, if he ends up in a place like Florida he might not have an opportunity to take a team deep into the playoffs, which is what he really needs to solidify his position in Hockey Canada's view, IMO.

If I were asked to sum up his performance in Vancouver in 2010 in one word, that word would be "adequate". Upon taking over for Brodeur after the U.S. round robin fiasco, he didn't need to do much in either the Germany or Russia games, played really good in the Slovakian semi-final, then looked a bit shaky in the gold medal game. We should have won that game 2-0 IMO.

All that being said, unless Smith or Holtby continue their play from the 2012 playoffs (neither one of those guys really has the pedigree or history to suggest that they're elite goaltenders, and I'll presume that at least one of them falls back to earth between now and December 2013), we're left with Luongo, Ward, Fleury, Smith/Holtby and Price battling it out for 3 goaltending spots. That's a pretty weak field for us, for sure, and our best case is that Price steps it up and grabs the #1 spot this upcoming year and next. Still, even in that realistic scenario Luongo would be a good pick as either the backup or the #3 given his international experience and the chance that you'll get a really good game from him if the #1 falters or gets hurt (like in the 2004 World Cup vs. Czech Rep.). I just don't want us to go in as our starter - I think we'd be in trouble.
What goalie isn't inconsistent?

I agree that our goaltending has been a weak point. Canada really hasnt developed anyone in recent years. You're not seeing a guy like Dustin Tokarski stepping up an shining as a pro. You're not seeing Chet Pickard live up to his pre draft hype. Hopefully that will change with Malcolm Subban, but that would be more towards 2018 than 2014.

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08-14-2012, 10:51 AM
  #268
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What goalie isn't inconsistent?

I agree that our goaltending has been a weak point. Canada really hasnt developed anyone in recent years. You're not seeing a guy like Dustin Tokarski stepping up an shining as a pro. You're not seeing Chet Pickard live up to his pre draft hype. Hopefully that will change with Malcolm Subban, but that would be more towards 2018 than 2014.
Bernier, Mason being others...and overall I agree.

To your point, no goalies are inconsistent. However, we saw in 2010 how far dominant goaltending (Ryan Miller) can take a team that could otherwise be seen as somewhat undermanned. In the Olympic context, we'll in all likelihood need our goaltender to steal a game or two for us, and my issue with Luongo is that you largely don't know what you're getting on a game-by-game basis. I'm also concerned about his overall confidence level given the rough ride he's been given the past few years. He needs to land in a new environment and re-establish himself as an elite #1 goaltender (all within the next year and a half) for me to pencil him in as our #1 for 2014, but for now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Price steps up in 2012-2013 and look to bring Lou along as a backup. I have nothing against Luongo, and you may be right, HC may have him penciled in as the de facto starter, but I think its more likely that they're leaving that open until the last possible minute.

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08-14-2012, 11:09 AM
  #269
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Bernier, Mason being others...and overall I agree.

To your point, no goalies are inconsistent. However, we saw in 2010 how far dominant goaltending (Ryan Miller) can take a team that could otherwise be seen as somewhat undermanned. In the Olympic context, we'll in all likelihood need our goaltender to steal a game or two for us, and my issue with Luongo is that you largely don't know what you're getting on a game-by-game basis. I'm also concerned about his overall confidence level given the rough ride he's been given the past few years. He needs to land in a new environment and re-establish himself as an elite #1 goaltender (all within the next year and a half) for me to pencil him in as our #1 for 2014, but for now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Price steps up in 2012-2013 and look to bring Lou along as a backup. I have nothing against Luongo, and you may be right, HC may have him penciled in as the de facto starter, but I think its more likely that they're leaving that open until the last possible minute.
Luongo at the international stage has played extremely well and hasnt done anything that suggests he won't be good in 2014.

How do you know what you'll get out of Carey Price? Or Braden Holtby? Or Marc Andre Fleury? Or Cam Ward? By the same standard, none of these goalies cut it.

I think you have to pencil in a roster right now, and erase names as you go and make changes as you go. If Carey Price develops into another Jonathan Quick then you definitely have to start him.

I think 2010 (re the Americans) proved more than anything not to buy in to the media garbage and fans expectations. That works in Luongo's favor as his reputation has been tarnished by ridiculous high standards set on him that isn't consistent with other goalies. Martin Brodeur blows it in game 7 of the EQF in 2009, and is named Canada's starter at the Olympics 10 months later. The media hyped team USA as massive underdogs but if you look at their roster you shouldn't be surprised they did well. They have a lot of solid youth, and a lot of talent. I personally predicted they'd be up there either in the gold or bronze medal games.

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08-14-2012, 12:07 PM
  #270
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Luongo at the international stage has played extremely well and hasnt done anything that suggests he won't be good in 2014.

How do you know what you'll get out of Carey Price? Or Braden Holtby? Or Marc Andre Fleury? Or Cam Ward? By the same standard, none of these goalies cut it.

I think you have to pencil in a roster right now, and erase names as you go and make changes as you go. If Carey Price develops into another Jonathan Quick then you definitely have to start him.

I think 2010 (re the Americans) proved more than anything not to buy in to the media garbage and fans expectations. That works in Luongo's favor as his reputation has been tarnished by ridiculous high standards set on him that isn't consistent with other goalies. Martin Brodeur blows it in game 7 of the EQF in 2009, and is named Canada's starter at the Olympics 10 months later. The media hyped team USA as massive underdogs but if you look at their roster you shouldn't be surprised they did well. They have a lot of solid youth, and a lot of talent. I personally predicted they'd be up there either in the gold or bronze medal games.
I respectfully disagree and I'd take the opposite approach and scout the goalies on the short-list (the aforementioned 5-6 guys) right up until you have the name the roster, then decide on your goaltender trio at that point. I believe that's the same approach that Hockey Canada takes with the entire roster. In any event I wouldn't assume that Luongo is the penciled-in #1 guy at this point based on his previous service. We also disagree on Luongo's international performance to-date; as I stated, I don't think he played extremely well in Vancouver but was instead merely "good enough", or "adequate" to get the job done. If I was pressed to name a roster for a World Cup this September, Luongo would be one of my 3 goalies (along with Price and Smith), so take that as you may. He's certainly ahead of Ward and Fleury on my list for 2014 too.

With respect to the U.S. team in 2010, they went into the tournament with a defined gameplan and built their roster in the context of that gameplan. And it worked. I personally had them at #4 going in (behind Canada/Russia and Sweden), pretty close to the Fins, so I was surprised when they ran the table up to the gold medal game, including kicking our butts 5-2, and took us to OT in the final. I expect a similar challenge from the Americans in 2014, though its worth noting that historically they (like us) haven't recently fared as well away from North America. It also remains to be seen whether their gameplan will translate well onto the international ice.

Anyway, it seems like we're arguing about semantics at this point. We're each projecting Luongo to be on the 2014 team - you have him as the de facto starter, I have him projected as a backup with room to the upside if he re-entrenches himself as an elite goaltender between now and then (which TBH I really hope happens).

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08-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #271
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It's really not Luongo we should be debating in my mind. I think Luongo and Price will both be on the team. What I think is up for grabs is that third spot.

Do you go with someone with a little more experience like Fleury? Or do you take a youngster to get him used to the environment in hopes he plays a bigger role in the future, like Holtby?

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08-14-2012, 12:52 PM
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It's really not Luongo we should be debating in my mind. I think Luongo and Price will both be on the team. What I think is up for grabs is that third spot.

Do you go with someone with a little more experience like Fleury? Or do you take a youngster to get him used to the environment in hopes he plays a bigger role in the future, like Holtby?
The last 3 Olympics we've taken Fleury ('10), Turco ('06), and Belfour ('02) as our 3rd goalies. Odds are the 3rd guy won't play anyway, but if recent history is any sort of indication we'd go with the more experienced guy in Fleury. He better play a he!! of a lot better than he did in this year's playoffs, though. Between now and then, though, a Holtby or a Smith could lead their team to deeper playoff runs, both raising their status vis-a-vis Fleury and also giving them necessary experience. That's why goaltending is the one position that's just so hard to predict this far out, things change so quickly - this time last year we wouldn't have been speaking about Holtby or Smith....

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08-14-2012, 05:12 PM
  #273
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It would be nice to have an intelligent conversation about Canada's roster, including goaltending, without people spewing biased media rhetoric, and a bunch of ******** like "choke choke choke"

If you want to use one standard to judge a goalie then at least be consistent. It's funny how you bash Luongo for TAKING HIS TEAM TO THE STANLEY CUP FINALS yet praise "Good Ol Carey Price" who hasn't done anything in the playoffs.

I'm glad Hockey Canada doesn't pick their teams based on the "fans" popular choices because then we would probably have Cam Ward starting in net. How's he done his last 2 international tournaments, or his last playoff series? and if you want to talk about the team they're on, then use that analysis both ways and look at all the deficiencies the Canucks had in the playoffs. It wasn't all on Luongo, the team in front of him was mentally weak and choked. Shutout on home ice in game 7 of he SCF tells you all you need to know about that team.

Like I said, Luongo will be on the team, and so will Price (barring injury of course). Luongo gets the de facto number 1 job based on past service as long as he's still a top goalie in the NHL, and assuming Price isn't pulling a Jonathan Quick. The real question should be who's number 3?

Last time it was Fleury and I would think he has the edge. However I wouldn't count out Holtby who has has looked very good in very limited NHL action. I wouldn't take Cam Ward, nor would I look at someone like Mike Smith unless he proves last year wasn't a fluke.
First of all, I think you should realise that the Canucks team has been much better than the Canadiens team. The Habs suffered from the injuries to their D man Markov and Jaroslov Spacek last season but yet Price still played more consistently than Luongo. Price didn't completely **** the bed early in the season, He played decent all year.

Price: .916 SV % Luongo: .919 SV%
Price: 2.43 GAA Luongo: 2.41 GAA

Notice how they are extremely similar to eachother.

Now let's look at their teams defence.

Montreal-
The Habs defence was very young this year. As I mentioned above, They had to deal with the losses of Markov and Spacek for a very large portion of the season. A 22 year old PK Subban was their #1 guy back there. Josh Gorges also played the full year. They didn't get Kaberle until the second half of the season. They also had to play Emelin and Weber. Carey Price had to stand on his head to atleast put up decent stats with this team.

Vancouver-
Bieska, Hanhuis and Edler led the charge for Vancouver and they didn't have to really deal wtih any injuries all year. I'm sure anyone anywhere would take haven taken Vacouvers defence from last year over Montreal's injury plagued defence.

As you can see, Carey Price almost has identical stats to Roberto's even though Carey Price played ten more games than Loo and Price's Defence was obviously worse.

Watch Carey Price bounce back in the next two years if people stay healthy.Like I said in a previous post, If Luongo is traded to either Florida or Toronto, watch his numbers go down the tubes. Carey Price is only getting better as time goes on. He hasn't reached his prime yet. The same can't be said for your precious Roberto Luongo. And don't pull the "how's he done in the last two international tournaments" on me. Carey Price was injured.

I certainly don't agree with Luongo gettng the number 1 Job. I think he should play but just not in important games. Give Price the first game and either Loo or Fluery the second. Fluery has the experience factor over some long shot like Holtby or Mike Smith. I'm pretty sure it will be those three guys unless Injuries consume one of them.

Our Team Canada will probably have a very good shot at winning, no matter who's between the pipes for us. Upfront we are amazing and the same can be said about our defence. Any team would have a very hard time beating us even if we had an average goaltener back there.

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08-15-2012, 02:59 AM
  #274
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Tavares-Crosby-Perry
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08-15-2012, 08:10 AM
  #275
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Tavares-Crosby-Perry
Stamkos-Toews-Giroux
Nash-M.Richards-E.Staal
J.Staal-Seguin-Eberle

Letang-Weber
Keith-Doughty
Pietrangelo-flavour of the month

Price
Ward
Fluery
I have the exact 12 forwards but I substituted Sharp in favour of J. Staal, but I can live with either. Obviously things can change from now until the end of next year, but if Taylor Hall has a great year next year along with Skinner, I would seriously consider them to be the top 12 forwards. I have Skinner as my 13th forward based on his great play at this WHC. I also have Luongo ahead of Fleury this time in goal. Hopefully Mike Smith and Holtby have great years next year, so they can solidify their spot for Sochi, since I am not sold on Cam Ward as one of the three goalies.

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